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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Split from players in NFL Camps
That's more than we've had in quite some time. Clearly we have upgraded our talent. Now we need to upgrade the results to match. And we need to get it done while it might still make some difference some day, if that train has not already left the station. We really shot ourselves in the foot by going 2-10, 4-8, 4-8 with this talent, while SMU was going to bowls every year and UH was going most years, and while basketball was making a massive sucking noise too. We're in the minor leagues for a while as a result
(This post was last modified: 04-27-2013 08:19 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
04-27-2013 07:45 PM
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Pan95 Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Rice Owls in NFL Camps
(04-27-2013 07:45 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  That's more than we've had in quite some time. Clearly we have upgraded our talent. Now we need to upgrade the results to match. And we need to get it done while it might still make some difference some day. If that train has not already left the station. We really shot ourselves in the foot by going 2-10, 4-8, 4-8 while SMU was going to bowls every year and UH was going most years, and while basketball was making a massive sucking noise too. We're in the minor leagues for a while as a result

How can I say this without insulting the effort of many of the players. There was no way that 2009 was going to come close to 2008. We had no QB in 2009. Sure we had 3 QBs, but neither separated themselves from the other. Additionally, we lost Casey, Dillard, Clement, and others. 2008 was all offense. The defense was getting better, but was completely dependent upon the offense for the team to succeed. 2-10 was disappointing, but entirely conceivable considering what we lost and where we were. Keep in mind how young the defense was also and we had young talent (McHargue) on the sidelines.

Now the first 4-8 season was disappointing as well and the following season more so, but I maintain that we all should have seen the 2-10 season coming a mile away.
04-28-2013 12:13 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Rice Owls in NFL Camps
(04-28-2013 12:13 AM)Pan95 Wrote:  
(04-27-2013 07:45 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  That's more than we've had in quite some time. Clearly we have upgraded our talent. Now we need to upgrade the results to match. And we need to get it done while it might still make some difference some day. If that train has not already left the station. We really shot ourselves in the foot by going 2-10, 4-8, 4-8 while SMU was going to bowls every year and UH was going most years, and while basketball was making a massive sucking noise too. We're in the minor leagues for a while as a result
How can I say this without insulting the effort of many of the players. There was no way that 2009 was going to come close to 2008. We had no QB in 2009. Sure we had 3 QBs, but neither separated themselves from the other. Additionally, we lost Casey, Dillard, Clement, and others. 2008 was all offense. The defense was getting better, but was completely dependent upon the offense for the team to succeed. 2-10 was disappointing, but entirely conceivable considering what we lost and where we were. Keep in mind how young the defense was also and we had young talent (McHargue) on the sidelines.
Now the first 4-8 season was disappointing as well and the following season more so, but I maintain that we all should have seen the 2-10 season coming a mile away.

But if you and I could see it from a mile away, even more so should the guys whose job it is not to go 2-10. What should have been absolutely crystal clear to everyone involved is that with the landscape of intercollegiate athletics being what it was, we couldn't pick that particular time frame to go 2-10, 4-8, 4-8. We did a lot of building for the future when it was absolutely critical that we win right now.

So 2008 was all offense and we lost our QB in 2009. By 2009 we were in the third year of a program with a defensive guy as head coach. We should have been good enough defensively to carry us over the transition. We weren't, and there didn't seem to be any urgency about getting better defensively. There didn't seem to be any urgency, period. We were redshirting guys for the future who could possibly have helped us win now. That makes sense in the context of an established program, but it didn't make sense where we were then. We should have been working for two years on being better in 2009, and that work should have produced better results. Same even more so for 2010 and 2011.

In 2007 we lost the momentum built up in 2006, and in 2009 we lost the momentum built up in 2008, at a time when we simply could not afford either. Going 3-9, 2-10, 4-8, 4-8 in three out of four seasons was not the worst run in history, certainly not the worst run in Rice history. But it could not have come at a worse time.

If we had played .500 ball in 2007, won the bowl in 2008, played .500 again in 2009, and had bowl teams in 2010 and 2011, and if basketball had turned the corner a lot faster without the stink that was raised, would we have gotten an invite to a bigger league? Maybe, maybe not, who knows. But we'd have been in the conversation with a lot stronger case. As it was, we didn't. At perhaps the most critical point in the program's history, we simply did not perform.
(This post was last modified: 04-28-2013 06:47 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
04-28-2013 06:46 AM
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NicevilleWRC Offline
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RE: Rice Owls in NFL Camps
(04-28-2013 06:46 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  We were redshirting guys for the future who could possibly have helped us win now. That makes sense in the context of an established program, but it didn't make sense where we were then.

...

In 2007 we lost the momentum built up in 2006, and in 2009 we lost the momentum built up in 2008, at a time when we simply could not afford either. Going 3-9, 2-10, 4-8, 4-8 in three out of four seasons was not the worst run in history, certainly not the worst run in Rice history. But it could not have come at a worse time.

Redshirting guys is a good long-term decision for the team, and we needed a long term solution. Trying to put a band aid over our problems instead of properly building a program is not the way to go.

Also, despite the W/L record, we weren't very good in 2006. That was one of the luckiest seasons a team will ever have. We had so many last second Hail Mary's, long field goals, over time wins, and 4th down interceptions fumbled back to the offense in games we could have easily lost. Just look at the our record in 1 score games: 5-1. No team consistently wins close games at any level, and any extra loss would have made us ineligible for a bowl win. Definitely an improvement over the year before but not as good as it first appears.
04-28-2013 07:21 PM
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At Ease Offline
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RE: Rice Owls in NFL Camps
Sorry, I have to respond to this, since it bothers me every time.

The 2006 caught some breaks, but their accomplishments were not a mirage. Those were some good teams they beat, nearly beat or played very well, and lost in all of the "we so lucky" 03-puke is that we were extremely unlucky to lose Clement to a fluke hand injury that likely cost us the UH game and the C-USA-West title (and who knows, perhaps even a chance to knock off UCLA given how close that game was with JTS of all people at QB).
04-28-2013 07:57 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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RE: Rice Owls in NFL Camps
(04-28-2013 07:57 PM)At Ease Wrote:  is that we were extremely unlucky to lose Clement to a fluke hand injury that likely cost us the UH game

I agree, we lost the UH game due to bad luck. We also, IMO, won the UAB game due to good luck. People keep telling me it averages out.
04-28-2013 09:02 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: Rice Owls in NFL Camps
(04-28-2013 07:21 PM)NicevilleWRC Wrote:  Redshirting guys is a good long-term decision for the team, and we needed a long term solution. Trying to put a band aid over our problems instead of properly building a program is not the way to go.

This is a debatable point. There are those who agree with you and those who believe that the best way to win in the future is to win now. I think of George Allen and Paul Bryant in the latter group, and Frank Beamer in the former. Clearly, we'd be happy if our record looked like a typical year for any of them. There are plenty of coaches who have succeeded--and plenty who have failed--with each approach. Rather than one or the other being superior, I think it's more reasonable to conclude that it's a case by case situation, and whichever approach works for a given coach in a given situation is the best one for that situation.

But my point is a different one. We had a short-term problem, not a long-term problem. The landscape of intercollegiate athletics changed dramatically in 2012, and if we needed to come out of the reshuffle in good shape then we could not afford to go 2-10, 4-8, 4-8 in 2009-2011. A long-term solution is great if our ultimate objective was to succeed in CUSA-Lite/SunBelt/Southland-Heavy. If our ambitions were higher than that, then we needed a quick fix before midnight struck and everything turned into a pumpkin.

OK, I admit that I did not know that 2012 would be the witching hour. But we all knew it was coming soon. Did anyone seriously think otherwise? That being the case, I think there needed to be an urgency around 2009-2011 that simply wasn't there. Maybe it was a hopeless cause. I think that's a very realistic possibility. But that's also assessed from the perspective that we were not competitive in football or basketball during those years, and how things might have been different had we been can never be known.

Sometimes you have the luxury of planning for the long term. Sometimes you don't. We didn't.
(This post was last modified: 04-28-2013 09:20 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
04-28-2013 09:19 PM
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Pan95 Offline
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RE: Rice Owls in NFL Camps
This is my general opinion:
2006 could have been better and could have been worse. Chase's health was a foreshadow of what was to demonstrate our dependance on a few core players for success.

2007 a semi gutted team thanks to the presence and subsequent departure of he-who-must-not-be-named. Nichols State was a disastrous start for the Bailiff regime. But as the season wore on, the team gained an offensive identity and maturity and created momentum for 2008.

2008 Not much to say. Great year. Except for the fact that the lion's share of touchdowns, receptions, receiving yards, and rushing yards graduated with Chase Clement, James Casey, Jarett Dillard, and CJ Ugokwe. Which led to 2009...

2009 As has been said before, no QB separated himself, still a young defense (Bauer, Lowry, Gaddis, Gaines) with several question marks at Linebacker, even more questions at the Offensive line (Ball, Allen, Carrington). Plus, even more questions as to where receiving and rushing yards would come from. With that said, 2009 should have been 3-9 not 2-10. We lost to SMU 31-28, a game also remembered as the Margus Hunt block party.

2010 Good start at UT. Lots of new guys starting/playing either for the first time or at new positions, e.g., Nwosu, Briggs, Eddington, McHargue, McGuffie, Hill, Petersen, Smith, Moore, Porras, Frazier, and Gioffre. Should have beat Tulane on the road so 5-7 would have been the record.

2011 Should have been a bowl year if we take care of business at Marshall and SMU.

2012 Great year, but could have been better.

To Owl69's point, since 2009 there is at least one game that better execution and preparation would have gotten us closer to the goal a year earlier. Yet, at best we were good for about 3 wins in 2009 when we take into account all the production that was lost from 2008. But, we are quickly moving in the right direction. I attribute that to 1. Outstanding recruiting, 2. Outstanding player physical preparation (Coach K), and 3. Improved coaching (Regan, Sloane, Thurmond, Slater, Hoefer, etc). There is still time. If we continue to win, continue to recruit, and continue to develop, we could end up being the Stanford of the South and Southwest before long. Dave Campbell Texas football absolutely raved about the 2012 recruiting class stating that "Rice killed it". And they seem pretty high on our current class. 2013 will be a statement year. I believe that it will be the year that we make ourselves relevant locally, state, and even nationally.
04-28-2013 10:04 PM
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MemOwl Offline
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RE: Rice Owls in NFL Camps
(04-28-2013 10:04 PM)Pan95 Wrote:  2012 Great year, but could have been better.

Are we so beaten down by the 2-10's and 4-8's that we label 7-6 as great?

Earlier in your post you call 2008's 10-3 as a great year. Is "great" so elastic an adjective that it can span from 7 to 10 wins?

Or is it path dependent--such that 10-3 was great but since it is not realistic to ever do that again, 7 wins is the new 10 wins and is now great?
(This post was last modified: 04-28-2013 10:26 PM by MemOwl.)
04-28-2013 10:25 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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RE: Rice Owls in NFL Camps
I think this past year has been considered great because of how the team finished the year out and responded to adversity. It definitely isn't because of the record, but because the team did not hang their head, showed some grit and took it to Air Force in the bowl game. I doubt we would be saying it was great if we went 7-1 to open the season and then lost the next five games.
04-28-2013 10:38 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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RE: Rice Owls in NFL Camps
(04-28-2013 10:25 PM)MemOwl Wrote:  
(04-28-2013 10:04 PM)Pan95 Wrote:  2012 Great year, but could have been better.

Are we so beaten down by the 2-10's and 4-8's that we label 7-6 as great?

Earlier in your post you call 2008's 10-3 as a great year. Is "great" so elastic an adjective that it can span from 7 to 10 wins?

Or is it path dependent--such that 10-3 was great but since it is not realistic to ever do that again, 7 wins is the new 10 wins and is now great?

7-6 in 2006 was great, because it broke the bowl streak.

7-6 in 2012 was great because it was a great finish. Better to finish well than to start well, if 7-6 is to be the end result. It included a bowl WIN, and that is a plus in itself.

7-6 will not be great in 2013. No way. 9-3 might not be great. 10-3 might not be great. It just all depends on which games get the Ls and how they are are gotten. We talk about 2008 as great, but take a long look at those three Ls that year. They were not great.

We need to stop looking back, and stop the yapping about the woulda, coulda, shoulda. We have to start from where we are, not from where we shoulda been, coulda been, woulda been if only this, that or the other had or had not happened as it did or didn't.

Heck, I think about how well off we would have been if only there wasn't that damned missed tackle in the third quarter of the UCLA game in 1964(5? 6?). Coach shoulda had a different player in for that play, and we woulda won, and our whole history would be so much better. We would be the flagship of the SEC.

Square one is today, not yesterday.

Looking forward to 2013.
(This post was last modified: 04-28-2013 10:53 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
04-28-2013 10:51 PM
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Rick Gerlach Offline
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RE: Rice Owls in NFL Camps
(04-28-2013 07:57 PM)At Ease Wrote:  Sorry, I have to respond to this, since it bothers me every time.

The 2006 caught some breaks, but their accomplishments were not a mirage. Those were some good teams they beat, nearly beat or played very well, and lost in all of the "we so lucky" 03-puke is that we were extremely unlucky to lose Clement to a fluke hand injury that likely cost us the UH game and the C-USA-West title (and who knows, perhaps even a chance to knock off UCLA given how close that game was with JTS of all people at QB).

I don't think anyone really means to take anything away from the heart that the 2006 team displayed, or the fact they earned a bowl trip (where the results were much different than 2008 or 2012).

My point has only been that the 2006 team, while full of heart, and while they went to a bowl (thanks to expanded bowl opportunities over the WAC), was probably not as good a Rice team as other teams we'd had over the previousl 30 years (1980-1981, 1994, 1996-97 (maybe 98-99) and 2001). That's always a debateable question, but I generally view it simply . . . if the two teams had to play each other, which team would I put money on to win.

By that measure, I know I'd bet on the 2008 team over 2006, and while it may be a tougher call than the teams slated above, I'd probably bet on the 2012 team as well. But since that's always a hypothetical question, who knows?

I enjoyed 2006 and the bowl trip immensely. The bowl result and the subsequent coaching defection/issues soured things slightly.

They'll always have a special place in Rice lore for breaking the bowl streak. But would the team that played Troy in the bowl game (without Clement) have beaten the second half 2003 team lead by Kyle Herm that finished 4-2 after he returned from an injury?
04-28-2013 11:30 PM
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smackdaddy Offline
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RE: Rice Owls in NFL Camps
(04-28-2013 11:30 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(04-28-2013 07:57 PM)At Ease Wrote:  Sorry, I have to respond to this, since it bothers me every time.

The 2006 caught some breaks, but their accomplishments were not a mirage. Those were some good teams they beat, nearly beat or played very well, and lost in all of the "we so lucky" 03-puke is that we were extremely unlucky to lose Clement to a fluke hand injury that likely cost us the UH game and the C-USA-West title (and who knows, perhaps even a chance to knock off UCLA given how close that game was with JTS of all people at QB).

I don't think anyone really means to take anything away from the heart that the 2006 team displayed, or the fact they earned a bowl trip (where the results were much different than 2008 or 2012).

My point has only been that the 2006 team, while full of heart, and while they went to a bowl (thanks to expanded bowl opportunities over the WAC), was probably not as good a Rice team as other teams we'd had over the previousl 30 years (1980-1981, 1994, 1996-97 (maybe 98-99) and 2001). That's always a debateable question, but I generally view it simply . . . if the two teams had to play each other, which team would I put money on to win.

By that measure, I know I'd bet on the 2008 team over 2006, and while it may be a tougher call than the teams slated above, I'd probably bet on the 2012 team as well. But since that's always a hypothetical question, who knows?

I enjoyed 2006 and the bowl trip immensely. The bowl result and the subsequent coaching defection/issues soured things slightly.

They'll always have a special place in Rice lore for breaking the bowl streak. But would the team that played Troy in the bowl game (without Clement) have beaten the second half 2003 team lead by Kyle Herm that finished 4-2 after he returned from an injury?

Alright, Rick, you're on! I will totally take your bet and wager on the 2006 team over the 1980 or 1981 team. It might be tricky to round up all the players--I assume most of the '80-'81 teams are in their 50's by now--but I think the 2006 team will crush them. Just absolutely run all over them. But I think it'd be a fun game and a hoot for the current players to watch the old guys battle it out at HRS. Name your bet. I'm in.
(This post was last modified: 04-29-2013 12:45 AM by smackdaddy.)
04-29-2013 12:44 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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RE: Rice Owls in NFL Camps
OK, Rick, as long as we are playing Fantasy Rice Football, who do you take, the second half of 2006 vs. the second half of 2012? i am going with 2012-b just on the bowl results.

I'll take 1953 over 1949 while we're at it.
04-29-2013 01:31 AM
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Rick Gerlach Offline
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RE: Rice Owls in NFL Camps
I knew if money was involved, you'd be in!

I'd take 2012 over 2003.

But I'd have to stick with 1949 over 1953.

The latter pick is tricky. I never saw either of them.
04-29-2013 05:25 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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RE: Rice Owls in NFL Camps
(04-29-2013 05:25 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  I knew if money was involved, you'd be in!

I'd take 2012 over 2003.

But I'd have to stick with 1949 over 1953.

The latter pick is tricky. I never saw either of them.

and you think I did? thanks a lot, friend.
04-29-2013 05:29 AM
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Rick Gerlach Offline
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RE: Rice Owls in NFL Camps
(04-29-2013 12:44 AM)smackdaddy Wrote:  
(04-28-2013 11:30 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(04-28-2013 07:57 PM)At Ease Wrote:  Sorry, I have to respond to this, since it bothers me every time.

The 2006 caught some breaks, but their accomplishments were not a mirage. Those were some good teams they beat, nearly beat or played very well, and lost in all of the "we so lucky" 03-puke is that we were extremely unlucky to lose Clement to a fluke hand injury that likely cost us the UH game and the C-USA-West title (and who knows, perhaps even a chance to knock off UCLA given how close that game was with JTS of all people at QB).

I don't think anyone really means to take anything away from the heart that the 2006 team displayed, or the fact they earned a bowl trip (where the results were much different than 2008 or 2012).

My point has only been that the 2006 team, while full of heart, and while they went to a bowl (thanks to expanded bowl opportunities over the WAC), was probably not as good a Rice team as other teams we'd had over the previousl 30 years (1980-1981, 1994, 1996-97 (maybe 98-99) and 2001). That's always a debateable question, but I generally view it simply . . . if the two teams had to play each other, which team would I put money on to win.

By that measure, I know I'd bet on the 2008 team over 2006, and while it may be a tougher call than the teams slated above, I'd probably bet on the 2012 team as well. But since that's always a hypothetical question, who knows?

I enjoyed 2006 and the bowl trip immensely. The bowl result and the subsequent coaching defection/issues soured things slightly.

They'll always have a special place in Rice lore for breaking the bowl streak. But would the team that played Troy in the bowl game (without Clement) have beaten the second half 2003 team lead by Kyle Herm that finished 4-2 after he returned from an injury?

Alright, Rick, you're on! I will totally take your bet and wager on the 2006 team over the 1980 or 1981 team. It might be tricky to round up all the players--I assume most of the '80-'81 teams are in their 50's by now--but I think the 2006 team will crush them. Just absolutely run all over them. But I think it'd be a fun game and a hoot for the current players to watch the old guys battle it out at HRS. Name your bet. I'm in.

The old Ty Cobb (or was it Babe Ruth line). Need to look it up to see who this was attributed to, and which player he was talking about . . . .

Interviewer: Today's ballplayers play under different conditions than we had in the old days. What do you think (Ty Cobb/Babe Ruth)
would hit in today's game?

Interviewee: I reckon about .300.

Interviewer: .300? You're talking about one of the original Hall of Famers, an all-time great, and you think he'd be only sitting at .300?

Interviewee: Well, you gotta consider that he'd be well over 70 years old now.

or something to that effect.
04-29-2013 05:30 AM
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Rick Gerlach Offline
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RE: Rice Owls in NFL Camps
(04-29-2013 05:29 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(04-29-2013 05:25 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  I knew if money was involved, you'd be in!

I'd take 2012 over 2003.

But I'd have to stick with 1949 over 1953.

The latter pick is tricky. I never saw either of them.

and you think I did? thanks a lot, friend.

LOL - no, just explaining to the masses why my hypotheticals only went back to 1980/81.
04-29-2013 05:32 AM
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Antarius Offline
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RE: Rice Owls in NFL Camps
(04-29-2013 01:31 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  OK, Rick, as long as we are playing Fantasy Rice Football, who do you take, the second half of 2006 vs. the second half of 2012? i am going with 2012-b just on the bowl results.

I'll take 1953 over 1949 while we're at it.

2006. We actually managed to beat Tulsa, something we have failed to do since. Also, our opponents W-L ratio was better in 2006

2006
Quote:Team Win Loss Rice result?
UAB 3 9 W
UCF 4 8 W
UTEP 5 7 W
Tulsa 8 4 W
ECU 7 5 W
SMU 6 6 W

Opponent wins : 33 || Losses : 39

2012
Quote:Team Win Loss Rice result?
UTSA 8 4 W
Tulsa 9 3 L
USM 0 12 W
Tula 2 10 W
SMU 6 6 W
UTEP 3 9 W

Opponent wins : 28 || Losses : 44
(This post was last modified: 04-29-2013 08:32 AM by Antarius.)
04-29-2013 08:25 AM
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RE: Rice Owls in NFL Camps
(04-29-2013 08:25 AM)Antarius Wrote:  
(04-29-2013 01:31 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  OK, Rick, as long as we are playing Fantasy Rice Football, who do you take, the second half of 2006 vs. the second half of 2012? i am going with 2012-b just on the bowl results.

I'll take 1953 over 1949 while we're at it.

2006. We actually managed to beat Tulsa, something we have failed to do since. Also, our opponents W-L ratio was better in 2006

2006
Quote:Team Win Loss Rice result?
UAB 3 9 W
UCF 4 8 W
UTEP 5 7 W
Tulsa 8 4 W
ECU 7 5 W
SMU 6 6 W

Opponent wins : 33 || Losses : 39

2012
Quote:Team Win Loss Rice result?
UTSA 8 4 W
Tulsa 9 3 L
USM 0 12 W
Tula 2 10 W
SMU 6 6 W
UTEP 3 9 W

Opponent wins : 28 || Losses : 44

That's not an unreasonable way to choose. Neither is my way unreasonable: 2006 - lose bowl game to Troy 41-17 to back into 7-6 record, 2012 - win bowl game agaist Air Force to advance to 7-6 record. advantage 2012 IMO. I certainly felt a lot better after the 13th game in 2012. Felt better after the 12th game in 2006, though.
04-29-2013 08:54 AM
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