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[OT] "42" -- evolved into Astros AL/NL discussion
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NolaOwl Offline
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Post: #21
RE: [OT] "42"
(04-26-2013 11:53 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Major League Baseball owners have never let respect for the fans stop them from doing anything.

I would agree with you. Sometimes, such as the fallout from the 1990's era strike, fan reaction has caused changes. Right now, the Astros are on pace for even lower attendance than last year. I notice where Selig just tried to deflect blame for the move away from Crane so someone is watching. But MLB probably thinks, with some justification, that the fans will get over the move as time passes.
04-27-2013 12:03 AM
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75src Offline
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Post: #22
RE: [OT] "42"
The Cards do play 2 games in Houston this year.

(04-26-2013 11:50 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  I believe that the biggest problem with the AL forced move is the disrespect it showed to the fans. No one would ever force the Cardinals, Dodgers. Yankees or Red Sox to change leagues.

Some baseball fans will undoubtedly continue to support the Astros (or ALstros as some call them), but many have been permanently turned off and the only way to express displeasure is to stay away. It reminds of the way the Cowboys fired Tom Landry which turned off many old fans.

I'm a Cardinals fan who came over to Houston 2/3 times a year to watch them play the Stros. I won't be doing that any more as it turns my stomach to put any money in Crane's pocket.
04-27-2013 02:04 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #23
RE: [OT] "42"
Finally watched the movie on the flight home from Amsterdam last Saturday.

Overall, I thought it was quite good. A few negatives:

1. As I have stated before, I don't think Walter O'Malley and Happy Chandler have ever gotten adequate credit for their roles, primarily fighting the other owners. The movie did not correct that.
2. The guy playing Red Barber came nowhere close to replicating Barber's very distinctive voice.

On the positive side, there were several scenes where the emotions Robinson must have experienced came through pretty clearly.
08-15-2013 12:27 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #24
RE: [OT] "42"
(04-26-2013 11:50 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  I won't be doing that any more as it turns my stomach to put any money in Crane's pocket.

Why Crane? This was really brought on by Drayton.

I don't mind the AL. I like the DH. Like you I will miss the Cardinals, but I usually go to both STL and KC for a game or two each in May. And I'm happy to get the Yanks and Bosox for a series each every year. Plus I enjoyed the LAX and Bay Area rivalries when Astros were in the NL west, and those can sorta be re-established with the Angels and A's. What I still question is whether it's in MLB's best interests to have no NL footprint in Texas, indeed none between ATL and the west coast, and no AL footprint in the intermountain west. I would have thought that from a national marketing perspective it made more sense to move one of COL or AZ to the AL and move Astros back to NL west, to give each league a team in Texas and a team in the Rockies.
08-15-2013 12:44 AM
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NolaOwl Offline
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Post: #25
RE: [OT] "42"
(08-15-2013 12:44 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-26-2013 11:50 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  I won't be doing that any more as it turns my stomach to put any money in Crane's pocket.

Why Crane? This was really brought on by Drayton.

I don't mind the AL. I like the DH. Like you I will miss the Cardinals, but I usually go to both STL and KC for a game or two each in May. And I'm happy to get the Yanks and Bosox for a series each every year. Plus I enjoyed the LAX and Bay Area rivalries when Astros were in the NL west, and those can sorta be re-established with the Angels and A's. What I still question is whether it's in MLB's best interests to have no NL footprint in Texas, indeed none between ATL and the west coast, and no AL footprint in the intermountain west. I would have thought that from a national marketing perspective it made more sense to move one of COL or AZ to the AL and move Astros back to NL west, to give each league a team in Texas and a team in the Rockies.

Crane took a $ 70 million dollar bribe to ignore the wishes of the fans. That did it for me. But others can of course put their money in his pocket if they so desire.
08-16-2013 02:40 PM
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Post: #26
RE: [OT] "42"
(08-15-2013 12:27 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Finally watched the movie on the flight home from Amsterdam last Saturday.

Overall, I thought it was quite good. A few negatives:

1. As I have stated before, I don't think Walter O'Malley and Happy Chandler have ever gotten adequate credit for their roles, primarily fighting the other owners. The movie did not correct that.
2. The guy playing Red Barber came nowhere close to replicating Barber's very distinctive voice.

On the positive side, there were several scenes where the emotions Robinson must have experienced came through pretty clearly.

I'm not surprised that O'Malley wasn't mentioned as he and Jackie were never close especially after O'Malley bought out Rickey and traded Jackie to the Giants. Since Rachael was involved in the film I'm sure the film makers were well aware of her feelings. They replayed the Ghosts of Flatbush the other night...very good documentary about the Dodgers, Robert Moses, and the move to LA.
08-16-2013 11:15 PM
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Post: #27
RE: [OT] "42"
(08-16-2013 02:40 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  Crane took a $ 70 million dollar bribe to ignore the wishes of the fans. That did it for me. But others can of course put their money in his pocket if they so desire.

Again, for several reasons, I think this was brought on more by Drayton than Crane. And since the $70 million ended up in his pocket, you can say he took the bribe at least as much as Crane did.
08-17-2013 02:06 AM
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Post: #28
RE: [OT] "42"
Crane said repeatedly that he wanted to buy a National League team, that he pressed the issue with MLB, and that each time he was told that the Astros would only be sold as an AL team. So then he said that if that's the case, he was not willing to pay as much, because an AL team is worth less. MLB made up the difference for McLane, which McLane was happy to accept.

Of the three parties in this arrangement, it is easy to see that two of them were dastardly. But Crane does not seem like one of the two.
08-17-2013 05:02 PM
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NolaOwl Offline
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Post: #29
RE: [OT] "42"
Sorry George, I don't see it that way. Knowing that the fans overwhelmingly opposed a move to the AL, all Crane would have had to do is say no deal if there was a league move. The owners would not have let his $ 600 + million walk away if he had held firm.
08-18-2013 02:12 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #30
RE: [OT] "42"
(08-18-2013 02:12 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  Sorry George, I don't see it that way. Knowing that the fans overwhelmingly opposed a move to the AL, all Crane would have had to do is say no deal if there was a league move. The owners would not have let his $ 600 + million walk away if he had held firm.
Fixing on Crane singly as the object of blame for the switch is inaccurate, and tends to undermine your credibility.

The condition that MLB put on the sale was clear from the beginning: the Astros would only be sold as an AL team. Why? Because:
(1) MLB was desperate to get some NL team to switch, in order to make the leagues even, in order to set up this stupid "expanded playoff";
(2) no NL owner who was going to continue with his team was willing to switch (after all, what owner would voluntarily permanently devalue HIS team); and
(3) but McLane, as a lame duck owner and historic patsy of MLB, was all too happy to sell his team as an AL team.

If Crane had "held firm", McLane and MLB would have continued marketing the Astros as an AL team to other buyers. And in that interim, Drayton would have agreed to switch anyway.

The parties who "ignored the wishes of the fans" were MLB and McLane, and principally McLean. He could have been the one to say to MLB, "The Astros' position is the same as the Brewers, Diamondbacks, and everyone else: we will not switch voluntarily. So, MLB, if you want a team to switch, you'll have to have some sort of lottery and force someone." But instead, McLane said "Sure I'm happy to make the switch -- especially since it won't be my problem."
08-18-2013 02:50 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #31
RE: [OT] "42"
Nola, I'm not sure what you have heard about this and from whom, but what I've heard from numerous sources inside the Astros organization is exactly what George has described, except that the evening out of the leagues was only coincidentally related to the expanded playoffs. If you have some basis for believing otherwise, would be interested to know what that is.
(This post was last modified: 08-18-2013 03:30 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
08-18-2013 03:27 PM
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NolaOwl Offline
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Post: #32
RE: [OT] "42"
MLB rules prohibit moving a team without the owner's consent. If Crane would have said no, then either McLane would have agreed to the move or kept them in the NL until another buyer was found. As hated as McLane was in the last few years, he was not going to move the team. And no one else was out there offering what Crane's group was offering, so he had the leverage. If someone else was out there with a $ 1 billion dollar offer who would agree to the move, Crane would not be the owner and he certainly would not have received the $ 70 million price reduction. He put his desire to own an MLB team ahead of the fans and took the $ 70 million.

Why you guys continue to defend this man is beyond me. Of course the Astros' organization wants to defend their current owner so the spin is in full gear. But it is a free country and if you want to believe what they say and the better days are ahead, that ls ok. Just don't expect me, and many others judging from the attendance numbers, to follow suit.
08-18-2013 04:26 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #33
RE: [OT] "42"
(08-18-2013 04:26 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  MLB rules prohibit moving a team without the owner's consent.
The move was not Crane's to consent to. The move was a pre-condition of the sale, set by MLB and made possible by the consent (i.e. complicity) of McLane, not Crane.

(08-18-2013 04:26 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  If Crane would have said no, then either McLane would have agreed to the move...
Correct.

(08-18-2013 04:26 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  ...or kept them in the NL until another buyer was found. As hated as McLane was in the last few years, he was not going to move the team.
False. As a lame duck owner, McLane didn't care about the future of the team. All he cared about was getting rid of it.

(08-18-2013 04:26 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  Why you guys continue to defend this man is beyond me.
No one here has said that Crane is an angel. But of the three parties involved in the switch -- McLane, MLB, and Crane -- it is overwhelmingly clear that Crane is the LEAST blameworthy of the three, because he came in after the other two had teamed up and had already thrown the city and its fans under the bus. The fact that Crane was able to bargain down the price can be seen as either to his credit or his discredit, but either way, it's a far less blameworthy act than what McLane and MLB had already done.

More generally, your apparent devotion to singling Crane out as the root of evil is not helping your credibility.

(08-18-2013 04:26 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  Of course the Astros' organization wants to defend their current owner so the spin is in full gear.
This appears to be an ad hominem, or at least an inchoate one. In any case, so what?

(08-18-2013 04:26 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  But it is a free country and if you want to believe what they say and the better days are ahead, that ls ok.
This is a worthless statement -- and again, one that undermines your credibility.
- If your intention is to inform the reader that people are entitled to their opinions, that point is already so well-known as to make your statement completely devoid of value.
- If the intention is really (as one suspects) to take a back-handed swipe at opposing opinions in the false guise of a "high ground" position, the tactic is so transparent and ineffective as to make your statement, again, valueless.
- If the intention is to indicate that you genuinely respect reasoned opinions that differ from you're own: well, it is not clear that such is actually the case.
08-18-2013 06:27 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #34
RE: [OT] "42"
(08-18-2013 04:26 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  MLB rules prohibit moving a team without the owner's consent. If Crane would have said no, then either McLane would have agreed to the move or kept them in the NL until another buyer was found. As hated as McLane was in the last few years, he was not going to move the team. And no one else was out there offering what Crane's group was offering, so he had the leverage. If someone else was out there with a $ 1 billion dollar offer who would agree to the move, Crane would not be the owner and he certainly would not have received the $ 70 million price reduction. He put his desire to own an MLB team ahead of the fans and took the $ 70 million.

Why you guys continue to defend this man is beyond me. Of course the Astros' organization wants to defend their current owner so the spin is in full gear. But it is a free country and if you want to believe what they say and the better days are ahead, that ls ok. Just don't expect me, and many others judging from the attendance numbers, to follow suit.

Nobody can buy a major league team without the approval of the other owners. The other owners were not going to approve the sale without the move to the AL. So the MLB rule about not moving the team without the owner's consent did not apply, because unless he consented, Crane could not become an owner. So at the point in time at which he had to consent, he was not yet an owner.

The rule did apply to Drayton. He could have resisted and held off selling until some other team was sold under conditions where this could have been forced on them. But he didn't do that. He's been Selig's *itch for years, and this is just one more example.
(This post was last modified: 08-18-2013 08:30 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
08-18-2013 08:27 PM
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Post: #35
RE: [OT] "42"
Chandler agreed to Robinson coming in even though Chandler knew it would mean his contract would not be renewed when it was up. The previous commissioner, Landis, blocked integration even during WWII when players were scarce due to the draft.

The present commissioner, Selig, is bad for baseball. We had the AL move forced on us even though it would have made more sense to have his former team, the Brewers, go back to the AL.

I agree with 69 that McLane went along with Selig too much. McLane went along with the draft slot bonus limitations even when it was voluntary. That cost the Astros several players who did not sign.

Moses was a big villian in that the only way the Dodgers were going to get a new stadium in New York was to move out to Queens (in flushing where the Mets ultimately moved). Much of the identity of the Dodgers came from its Brooklyn location. The Dodgers had wanted to move to the location where the Nets are now located.

(08-16-2013 11:15 PM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  
(08-15-2013 12:27 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Finally watched the movie on the flight home from Amsterdam last Saturday.

Overall, I thought it was quite good. A few negatives:

1. As I have stated before, I don't think Walter O'Malley and Happy Chandler have ever gotten adequate credit for their roles, primarily fighting the other owners. The movie did not correct that.
2. The guy playing Red Barber came nowhere close to replicating Barber's very distinctive voice.

On the positive side, there were several scenes where the emotions Robinson must have experienced came through pretty clearly.

I'm not surprised that O'Malley wasn't mentioned as he and Jackie were never close especially after O'Malley bought out Rickey and traded Jackie to the Giants. Since Rachael was involved in the film I'm sure the film makers were well aware of her feelings. They replayed the Ghosts of Flatbush the other night...very good documentary about the Dodgers, Robert Moses, and the move to LA.
08-19-2013 12:13 PM
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Post: #36
RE: [OT] "42"
To respond to another of Nola's points, yes I do believe things will get better. Not just because they tell me that but because of verifiable factual data. For the years 2008-2011 the Astros' minor league teams had the worst combined record of any team's affiliates for three out of the four years, and were 29th in the other year. And their farm teams averaged a year older than their leagues, meaning their players were even worse prospects than their records indicated. And the 2011 version was 30 games behind 29th. That's an amazing record of futility. In 2012, by contrast, in part due to Ed Wade's dumping veterans for prospects and in part due to Jeff Luhnow's continuing that practice plus having one of the best drafts in team history, the caliber of farmhands improved to the point that the Astros' domestic farms had the BEST combined record of all 30 teams. That incredible turnaround has continued this year; Astros farm teams are now down to league average age or below, and a few days ago every single Astros farm team above rookie ball--Ok City, Corpus, Lancaster, Quad Cities, Tri-Cities--was in first place, and every team had a winning record. Will all those prospects turn into great major leaguers? Certainly not. But the odds strongly favor enough of them doing so to make the Astros contenders for a couple of decades. Not a sure thing, but definitely the way to bet.
08-19-2013 05:41 PM
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Post: #37
RE: [OT] "42"
Yeah, the top 50/75/100 lists are loaded with Astros. Springer is mashing in AAA, there are power arms stacked like Appel, McCullers, Folty, and until recently Cosart, and here's BP on Correa:

Quote:Carlos Correa, SS, Astros (Low-A Quad Cities)
The top pick in the 2012 draft started his full-season experience by hitting .221 in April, which didn’t raise any red flags because he was only 18 and playing at an advanced level. Because of a work ethic that pushes scouts to label his makeup as elite, Correa has taken huge developmental steps forward throughout the season, and has emerged as one of the premier prospects in the game. Finding comfort at the plate and learning to trust his hands and explode into the ball, Correa is showing the Midwest League his plus potential hit tool and maturing power. Once his timing clicked, the contact grew louder and louder, and the young prospect has produced an OPS near 1.000 in the second half. The glove has also been better than advertised, as the actions are clean and smooth, and several sources said he has the chops to stick at the position for the foreseeable future. Let’s break it down: Correa is still only 18, he’s hitting better than .330 in the Midwest League, he’s hitting lefties to the tune of .450-plus, he can play a premium defensive position, he has natural hitting instincts, the doubles will eventually turn into home runs, and the makeup is applauded by people who aren’t prone to applause. That’s a monster talent, the kind of player who can change the fortunes of a franchise

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/articl...leid=21554

I find myself checking the MiLB scoreboard as often or more than the MLB's.
08-19-2013 06:26 PM
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Post: #38
RE: [OT] "42"
(08-19-2013 12:13 PM)75src Wrote:  Chandler agreed to Robinson coming in even though Chandler knew it would mean his contract would not be renewed when it was up. The previous commissioner, Landis, blocked integration even during WWII when players were scarce due to the draft.

The present commissioner, Selig, is bad for baseball. We had the AL move forced on us even though it would have made more sense to have his former team, the Brewers, go back to the AL.

I agree with 69 that McLane went along with Selig too much. McLane went along with the draft slot bonus limitations even when it was voluntary. That cost the Astros several players who did not sign.

Moses was a big villian in that the only way the Dodgers were going to get a new stadium in New York was to move out to Queens (in flushing where the Mets ultimately moved). Much of the identity of the Dodgers came from its Brooklyn location. The Dodgers had wanted to move to the location where the Nets are now located.

(08-16-2013 11:15 PM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  
(08-15-2013 12:27 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Finally watched the movie on the flight home from Amsterdam last Saturday.

Overall, I thought it was quite good. A few negatives:

1. As I have stated before, I don't think Walter O'Malley and Happy Chandler have ever gotten adequate credit for their roles, primarily fighting the other owners. The movie did not correct that.
2. The guy playing Red Barber came nowhere close to replicating Barber's very distinctive voice.

On the positive side, there were several scenes where the emotions Robinson must have experienced came through pretty clearly.

I'm not surprised that O'Malley wasn't mentioned as he and Jackie were never close especially after O'Malley bought out Rickey and traded Jackie to the Giants. Since Rachael was involved in the film I'm sure the film makers were well aware of her feelings. They replayed the Ghosts of Flatbush the other night...very good documentary about the Dodgers, Robert Moses, and the move to LA.

Absolutely correct on the history of the Dodgers.

Ebbets Field was crippled by location due to the lack of parking. In Post-War Brooklyn, with the population shift (and customer base) to the Long Island suburbs there was no future for the Dodgers at Ebbets.

The current location of Barclays Center is the approximate location planned for the new Dodgers stadium. It would have been above the Brooklyn terminus for the Long Island Railroad. It was a perfect location to allow easy access from Nassau and Suffolk counties by commuter trains.

It was a pure power play by Moses.

On another history point, before the Dodgers acquired the rights to Robinson, those rights were held by the Red Sox.

Around the time of his discharge from the Army, Robinson had a tryout at Fenway Park. He was superb. Most of the witnesses were Red Sox staff. As I heard the story, the witnesses were ugly. That killed any thoughts of the Red Sox breaking the color barrier.

Also of interest, the Red Sox held the rights to Willie Mays.

Just think of the 50's Red Sox with Robinson and Mays in addition to the great Ted Williams. Baseball history could have been very different Red Sox becoming the Dynasty in the place of the Yankees...
08-19-2013 06:48 PM
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Post: #39
RE: [OT] "42"
(08-19-2013 06:26 PM)At Ease Wrote:  Yeah, the top 50/75/100 lists are loaded with Astros. Springer is mashing in AAA, there are power arms stacked like Appel, McCullers, Folty, and until recently Cosart, and here's BP on Correa:

Quote:Carlos Correa, SS, Astros (Low-A Quad Cities)
The top pick in the 2012 draft started his full-season experience by hitting .221 in April, which didn’t raise any red flags because he was only 18 and playing at an advanced level. Because of a work ethic that pushes scouts to label his makeup as elite, Correa has taken huge developmental steps forward throughout the season, and has emerged as one of the premier prospects in the game. Finding comfort at the plate and learning to trust his hands and explode into the ball, Correa is showing the Midwest League his plus potential hit tool and maturing power. Once his timing clicked, the contact grew louder and louder, and the young prospect has produced an OPS near 1.000 in the second half. The glove has also been better than advertised, as the actions are clean and smooth, and several sources said he has the chops to stick at the position for the foreseeable future. Let’s break it down: Correa is still only 18, he’s hitting better than .330 in the Midwest League, he’s hitting lefties to the tune of .450-plus, he can play a premium defensive position, he has natural hitting instincts, the doubles will eventually turn into home runs, and the makeup is applauded by people who aren’t prone to applause. That’s a monster talent, the kind of player who can change the fortunes of a franchise

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/articl...leid=21554

I find myself checking the MiLB scoreboard as often or more than the MLB's.

Same here.
08-19-2013 09:25 PM
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Post: #40
RE: [OT] "42"
(08-19-2013 06:48 PM)Memphis Owl Wrote:  
(08-19-2013 12:13 PM)75src Wrote:  Chandler agreed to Robinson coming in even though Chandler knew it would mean his contract would not be renewed when it was up. The previous commissioner, Landis, blocked integration even during WWII when players were scarce due to the draft.

The present commissioner, Selig, is bad for baseball. We had the AL move forced on us even though it would have made more sense to have his former team, the Brewers, go back to the AL.

I agree with 69 that McLane went along with Selig too much. McLane went along with the draft slot bonus limitations even when it was voluntary. That cost the Astros several players who did not sign.

Moses was a big villian in that the only way the Dodgers were going to get a new stadium in New York was to move out to Queens (in flushing where the Mets ultimately moved). Much of the identity of the Dodgers came from its Brooklyn location. The Dodgers had wanted to move to the location where the Nets are now located.

(08-16-2013 11:15 PM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  
(08-15-2013 12:27 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Finally watched the movie on the flight home from Amsterdam last Saturday.

Overall, I thought it was quite good. A few negatives:

1. As I have stated before, I don't think Walter O'Malley and Happy Chandler have ever gotten adequate credit for their roles, primarily fighting the other owners. The movie did not correct that.
2. The guy playing Red Barber came nowhere close to replicating Barber's very distinctive voice.

On the positive side, there were several scenes where the emotions Robinson must have experienced came through pretty clearly.

I'm not surprised that O'Malley wasn't mentioned as he and Jackie were never close especially after O'Malley bought out Rickey and traded Jackie to the Giants. Since Rachael was involved in the film I'm sure the film makers were well aware of her feelings. They replayed the Ghosts of Flatbush the other night...very good documentary about the Dodgers, Robert Moses, and the move to LA.

Absolutely correct on the history of the Dodgers.

Ebbets Field was crippled by location due to the lack of parking. In Post-War Brooklyn, with the population shift (and customer base) to the Long Island suburbs there was no future for the Dodgers at Ebbets.

The current location of Barclays Center is the approximate location planned for the new Dodgers stadium. It would have been above the Brooklyn terminus for the Long Island Railroad. It was a perfect location to allow easy access from Nassau and Suffolk counties by commuter trains.

It was a pure power play by Moses.

On another history point, before the Dodgers acquired the rights to Robinson, those rights were held by the Red Sox.

Around the time of his discharge from the Army, Robinson had a tryout at Fenway Park. He was superb. Most of the witnesses were Red Sox staff. As I heard the story, the witnesses were ugly. That killed any thoughts of the Red Sox breaking the color barrier.

Also of interest, the Red Sox held the rights to Willie Mays.

Just think of the 50's Red Sox with Robinson and Mays in addition to the great Ted Williams. Baseball history could have been very different Red Sox becoming the Dynasty in the place of the Yankees...

Of course Robinson and Mays had no chance playing in Boston as the Red Sox were the last team to have a black player on their MLB roster when Pumpsie Green joined them in 1959,
08-20-2013 06:13 PM
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