I continue to read comments in articles here and there from college athletic administrators and their media partners about how the NCAA Tournament has diminished the public's interest in regular season college basketball and how they don't want the same fate to befall college football.

I'm sorry if this next part offends anyone but that argument is so embarrassingly patronizing it's offensive. Anyone who buys and/or parrots that "fact" is either a straight up moron or they are being willfully disingenuous. There is no gray area on that one.

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand why the profiteering powers that be want you to buy that unmitigated horseschitt but I have no idea why anyone would be foolish enough to fall for it?

If, on the off chance, you are one of those who has taken the bait on this one, ask yourself the following question: Were that argument true, why wouldn't the presence of a playoff also hurt the NFL's regular season television viewership? Or that of the NBA, NHL and MLB? Or, well, every other sport at every level in the world?

What is materially different about college basketball from just about every other major sport in the country that would cause the presence of a postseason tournament in that sport to cannibalize its regular season whereas in every other sport, the presence of a postseason actually helps to drive interest in regular season match ups?

It makes no sense whatsoever.

The NCAA Tournament dramatically HELPS college basketball and it is not even close. In fact I would argue that the presence of a tournament has probably saved the sport from what otherwise would have been a much darker fate.

In my view, THE most serious issue that has plagued college basketball for a long time now - and must be discussed every single time this nonsense is put forth by some snake oil salesman who insists that you ignore common sense - has been the fact that for more than a generation now, most of the sport's best young players are either in college for just a year or two or they have skipped college basketball altogether in favor of the NBA.

That's DEFINITELY the problem here guys, not the fact that people are so jacked for March Madness that they don't care about a January game between Duke and North Carolina.

That one-and-done phenomena has created a disconnect between college basketball fans and the teams.

It used to be that you got to know and fear the Patrick Ewings, Chris Mullens, and Danny Mannings of the world. Even if you weren't a fan of those teams or even those leagues, you got to know the stars very well over the years and that enticed you to see them face off against each other. They were at their schools seemingly FOREVER and watching teams trying to topple those great, great players and teams drove fan interest.

Now, unless you are a rabid fan of that school, you have no idea who stars for say, Kansas in any given year because every time they land a blue chipper, he's gone after one year. It's impossible to keep track of everyone and you never really get to know players like we use to know them.

That drives interest in the KU @ Oklahoma game was down as compared to what it might have been when it was Danny Manning against Stacy King.

That trend has also dramatically lessened the quality of the play among the teams themselves. That's one of the main reasons why, while the players are on average more athletic than ever before, the game itself is considerably sloppier and more plodding. The players are simply not as skilled as they used to be and they definitely don't understand the nuances of the game as well as their more experienced predecessors.

You don't think the B1G would have benefitted from LeBron James' playing four years at Ohio State or that the ACC wouldn't have benefitted from Kobe Bryant dominating at North Carolina for four years? Of course they would have. Imagine Dwight Howard dominating for four years at South Carolina or Amar'e Stoudamire at Florida. Would those have been some match ups or what? Hell, imagine of Carmelo Anthony had stayed at Syarcuse for more than one year or if Kevin Durant had done the same at Texas.

College basketball has many issues - and they are serious. However, the presence of the world's best playoff is not among them. In fact, it is the sport's saving grace. Do not let these liars fool you into believing otherwise as they do everything in their power to avoid implementing a full scale eight or 16 team college football playoff. Their motivations for aviding such a playoff have absolutely nothing to do with wanting to protect the integrity of the regular season and everything to do with old fashioned greed.

(04-21-2013 11:19 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  I continue to read comments in articles here and there from college athletic administrators and their media partners about how the NCAA Tournament has diminished the public's interest in regular season college basketball and how they don't want the same fate to befall college football.

I'm sorry if this next part offends anyone but that argument is so embarrassingly patronizing it's offensive. Anyone who buys and/or parrots that "fact" is either a straight up moron or they are being willfully disingenuous. There is no gray area on that one.

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand why the profiteering powers that be want you to buy that unmitigated horseschitt but I have no idea why anyone would be foolish enough to fall for it?

If, on the off chance, you are one of those who has taken the bait on this one, ask yourself the following question: Were that argument true, why wouldn't the presence of a playoff also hurt the NFL's regular season television viewership? Or that of the NBA, NHL and MLB? Or, well, every other sport at every level in the world?

What is materially different about college basketball from just about every other major sport in the country that would cause the presence of a postseason tournament in that sport to cannibalize its regular season whereas in every other sport, the presence of a postseason actually helps to drive interest in regular season match ups?

It makes no sense whatsoever.

The NCAA Tournament dramatically HELPS college basketball and it is not even close. In fact I would argue that the presence of a tournament has probably saved the sport from what otherwise would have been a much darker fate.

In my view, THE most serious issue that has plagued college basketball for a long time now - and must be discussed every single time this nonsense is put forth by some snake oil salesman who insists that you ignore common sense - has been the fact that for more than a generation now, most of the sport's best young players are either in college for just a year or two or they have skipped college basketball altogether in favor of the NBA.

That's DEFINITELY the problem here guys, not the fact that people are so jacked for March Madness that they don't care about a January game between Duke and North Carolina.

That one-and-done phenomena has created a disconnect between college basketball fans and the teams.

It used to be that you got to know and fear the Patrick Ewings, Chris Mullens, and Danny Mannings of the world. Even if you weren't a fan of those teams or even those leagues, you got to know the stars very well over the years and that enticed you to see them face off against each other. They were at their schools seemingly FOREVER and watching teams trying to topple those great, great players and teams drove fan interest.

Now, unless you are a rabid fan of that school, you have no idea who stars for say, Kansas in any given year because every time they land a blue chipper, he's gone after one year. It's impossible to keep track of everyone and you never really get to know players like we use to know them.

That drives interest in the KU @ Oklahoma game was down as compared to what it might have been when it was Danny Manning against Stacy King.

That trend has also dramatically lessened the quality of the play among the teams themselves. That's one of the main reasons why, while the players are on average more athletic than ever before, the game itself is considerably sloppier and more plodding. The players are simply not as skilled as they used to be and they definitely don't understand the nuances of the game as well as their more experienced predecessors.

You don't think the B1G would have benefitted from LeBron James' playing four years at Ohio State or that the ACC wouldn't have benefitted from Kobe Bryant dominating at North Carolina for four years? Of course they would have. Imagine Dwight Howard dominating for four years at South Carolina or Amar'e Stoudamire at Florida. Would those have been some match ups or what? Hell, imagine of Carmelo Anthony had stayed at Syarcuse for more than one year or if Kevin Durant had done the same at Texas.

College basketball has many issues - and they are serious. However, the presence of the world's best playoff is not among them. In fact, it is the sport's saving grace. Do not let these liars fool you into believing otherwise as they do everything in their power to avoid implementing a full scale eight or 16 team college football playoff. Their motivations for aviding such a playoff have absolutely nothing to do with wanting to protect the integrity of the regular season and everything to do with old fashioned greed.

The fact that the regular season is worthless is obvious. The myth is that the NCAA tournament caused it. If you want to create value in the regular season, you eliminate the autobid for the winner of the conference tournaments. The conference tournaments have essentially eliminated any significance to the regular season. Have the winner of the conference regular season be the winner of the conference autobid. The end of season conferences can still be played, but they are just played for a trophy and to make a run for an at large slot.

The NBA needs to follow the MLB. Let players either enter out of high school or they wait three years. That would be the best thing that could happen for college basketball.

(04-21-2013 11:35 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(04-21-2013 11:19 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  I continue to read comments in articles here and there from college athletic administrators and their media partners about how the NCAA Tournament has diminished the public's interest in regular season college basketball and how they don't want the same fate to befall college football.

I'm sorry if this next part offends anyone but that argument is so embarrassingly patronizing it's offensive. Anyone who buys and/or parrots that "fact" is either a straight up moron or they are being willfully disingenuous. There is no gray area on that one.

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand why the profiteering powers that be want you to buy that unmitigated horseschitt but I have no idea why anyone would be foolish enough to fall for it?

If, on the off chance, you are one of those who has taken the bait on this one, ask yourself the following question: Were that argument true, why wouldn't the presence of a playoff also hurt the NFL's regular season television viewership? Or that of the NBA, NHL and MLB? Or, well, every other sport at every level in the world?

What is materially different about college basketball from just about every other major sport in the country that would cause the presence of a postseason tournament in that sport to cannibalize its regular season whereas in every other sport, the presence of a postseason actually helps to drive interest in regular season match ups?

It makes no sense whatsoever.

The NCAA Tournament dramatically HELPS college basketball and it is not even close. In fact I would argue that the presence of a tournament has probably saved the sport from what otherwise would have been a much darker fate.

In my view, THE most serious issue that has plagued college basketball for a long time now - and must be discussed every single time this nonsense is put forth by some snake oil salesman who insists that you ignore common sense - has been the fact that for more than a generation now, most of the sport's best young players are either in college for just a year or two or they have skipped college basketball altogether in favor of the NBA.

That's DEFINITELY the problem here guys, not the fact that people are so jacked for March Madness that they don't care about a January game between Duke and North Carolina.

That one-and-done phenomena has created a disconnect between college basketball fans and the teams.

It used to be that you got to know and fear the Patrick Ewings, Chris Mullens, and Danny Mannings of the world. Even if you weren't a fan of those teams or even those leagues, you got to know the stars very well over the years and that enticed you to see them face off against each other. They were at their schools seemingly FOREVER and watching teams trying to topple those great, great players and teams drove fan interest.

Now, unless you are a rabid fan of that school, you have no idea who stars for say, Kansas in any given year because every time they land a blue chipper, he's gone after one year. It's impossible to keep track of everyone and you never really get to know players like we use to know them.

That drives interest in the KU @ Oklahoma game was down as compared to what it might have been when it was Danny Manning against Stacy King.

That trend has also dramatically lessened the quality of the play among the teams themselves. That's one of the main reasons why, while the players are on average more athletic than ever before, the game itself is considerably sloppier and more plodding. The players are simply not as skilled as they used to be and they definitely don't understand the nuances of the game as well as their more experienced predecessors.

You don't think the B1G would have benefitted from LeBron James' playing four years at Ohio State or that the ACC wouldn't have benefitted from Kobe Bryant dominating at North Carolina for four years? Of course they would have. Imagine Dwight Howard dominating for four years at South Carolina or Amar'e Stoudamire at Florida. Would those have been some match ups or what? Hell, imagine of Carmelo Anthony had stayed at Syarcuse for more than one year or if Kevin Durant had done the same at Texas.

College basketball has many issues - and they are serious. However, the presence of the world's best playoff is not among them. In fact, it is the sport's saving grace. Do not let these liars fool you into believing otherwise as they do everything in their power to avoid implementing a full scale eight or 16 team college football playoff. Their motivations for aviding such a playoff have absolutely nothing to do with wanting to protect the integrity of the regular season and everything to do with old fashioned greed.

The fact that the regular season is worthless is obvious. The myth is that the NCAA tournament caused it. If you want to create value in the regular season, you eliminate the autobid for the winner of the conference tournaments. The conference tournaments have essentially eliminated any significance to the regular season. Have the winner of the conference regular season be the winner of the conference autobid. The end of season conferences can still be played, but they are just played for a trophy and to make a run for an at large slot.

How many times has the major conference regular season champ not been invited to the tourney. Sure, it's happened. How about the major conferences having an auto bid for both the regular season and conference tourney champs?

(04-21-2013 11:44 PM)FargoBison Wrote:  The NBA needs to follow the MLB. Let players either enter out of high school or they wait three years. That would be the best thing that could happen for college basketball.

Could not agree more. I think it would actually be good for the NBA too.

(04-21-2013 11:46 PM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  How many times has the major conference regular season champ not been invited to the tourney. Sure, it's happened. How about the major conferences having an auto bid for both the regular season and conference tourney champs?

Just once I think, and sadly it was my Huskies last year. And yes the conference tournaments have made the regular season mostly pointless.

(04-21-2013 11:35 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  The fact that the regular season is worthless is obvious. The myth is that the NCAA tournament caused it. If you want to create value in the regular season, you eliminate the autobid for the winner of the conference tournaments. The conference tournaments have essentially eliminated any significance to the regular season. Have the winner of the conference regular season be the winner of the conference autobid. The end of season conferences can still be played, but they are just played for a trophy and to make a run for an at large slot.

(04-21-2013 11:44 PM)FargoBison Wrote:  The NBA needs to follow the MLB. Let players either enter out of high school or they wait three years. That would be the best thing that could happen for college basketball.

I agree with both of these points.

Do you notice there is nobody from a major basketball program complaining in this post?

The NCAA Tournament DOES hurt the regular season.

You have 340+ schools in Division I. For about 150 of them, they aren't getting in the tournament unless they win three or four games in a row at the end of the year in their league tournament.

For another 60 to 80 schools, once they see they are going to be below .500 or barely above, they are out without conference tournament redemption while the rest of them once they see they will be fairly above .500 they are focused on seeding. Winning their conference or division has little meaning.

One game in the regular season is rarely life or death for a Division I basketball team.

I like the idea of the conference tournament since the regular season champion may not always be the best but the smaller leagues need to do more to protect its top teams, such as limiting the amount of teams who advance to the little dance and pad their top seeds with byes.

(04-21-2013 11:44 PM)FargoBison Wrote:  The NBA needs to follow the MLB. Let players either enter out of high school or they wait three years. That would be the best thing that could happen for college basketball.

One critical thing that the NBA could do is give players service credit for "time served." Under the current NBA salary structure, players must accumulate service time before becoming eligible for uncapped salaries. The sooner a player enters the draft, the sooner they begin accumulating service time. The NBA should shorten the required service time for older players or treat years played in college as a sophomore, junior and senior as creditable service time. Under the current system, they are encouraging players, including large numbers who could benefit from additional seasoning in college, to declare eligibility as soon as possible. If they went to an MLB style system without making this change, these players would all simply declare after high school.

The NBA plays 82 games to cut 14 of 30 teams from the playoffs. And then the playoffs are 7-game series. You're kidding yourself if you don't think the NBA playoffs hurt the regular season.

(04-22-2013 07:53 AM)JunkYardCard Wrote:  The NBA plays 82 games to cut 14 of 30 teams from the playoffs. And then the playoffs are 7-game series. You're kidding yourself if you don't think the NBA playoffs hurt the regular season.

NBA regular season is great. They never have to run discount promotions to move tickets or do give-aways to try to lure a crowd.

(04-22-2013 07:40 AM)orangefan Wrote:  

(04-21-2013 11:44 PM)FargoBison Wrote:  The NBA needs to follow the MLB. Let players either enter out of high school or they wait three years. That would be the best thing that could happen for college basketball.

One critical thing that the NBA could do is give players service credit for "time served." Under the current NBA salary structure, players must accumulate service time before becoming eligible for uncapped salaries. The sooner a player enters the draft, the sooner they begin accumulating service time. The NBA should shorten the required service time for older players or treat years played in college as a sophomore, junior and senior as creditable service time. Under the current system, they are encouraging players, including large numbers who could benefit from additional seasoning in college, to declare eligibility as soon as possible. If they went to an MLB style system without making this change, these players would all simply declare after high school.

If they went to an MLB style system the few true obvious superstar potential kids would go to the NBA unless they just really wanted to go to college. The recruitment of those players is your highest risk of recruitment because players become more fungible after those few.

If you are 18 years old you can sign a contract to play pro soccer, pro hockey, pro golf, pro baseball, pro rodeo, drive race cars, go war zones and get shot at, but you can't play pro basketball in the US unless you sign with a penny-ante league.

Remember, we are talking about a college system that is primarily regional (divided into conference) and they want national audiences. The difference between college basketball and football is that basketball makes itself regional and college football doesn't. In football, a fan in Ohio has a reason to care about a game involving Oklahoma State and Iowa State on a Friday night because it can directly effect the national championship (I payed attention to such a game when Oklahoma State was #1). In basketball, a #1 vs. #2 game in the regular season effects almost nothing so a lot fewer people watch.

Maybe it's primarily me, but for me a big playoff very much effects how I watch a sport in the regular season. Unless it's a Big Ten game, I couldn't care less about a #1 vs. #2 basketball game in the regular season. Why would I? It doesn't effect anything besides a tiny bit of seeding. I don't think I've watched even half of a regular season basketball game that did not involve a Big Ten team in a long time. I do watch a lot of Big Ten conference play though since I care about the standings.

In football I'll watch everything all season long. I enjoy basketball too, but for some reason, before conference play starts, I think about everything like kind of a preseason. I honestly don't even care that much about watching Ohio State outside of a big game or two before conference play because it doesn't feel like they are playing for anything. When it's a Big Ten game, even if the Buckeyes are out of it, at least I know that it's going down in the conference standings.

As for the other sports, I'd argue the big playoffs do effect them, but the difference is you are talking about nationwide leagues to start with as opposed to somewhat regional conferences. When you are talking 100+ teams, you have to have some stakes in games to get people on the other side of the continent to care in a way you don't with 30 teams in one or two leagues. All the same, I have zero interest in the NBA or NHL regular seasons because of the huge playoffs. I watched a little basketball when the Heat were on the big winning streak, but otherwise could care less till we get to the playoff. I do watch some baseball, but I'm not glued to the outcome because it's not that big a deal. In the NFL, people love the season, but a lot of that is because of a) fantasy football and b) gambling which have become a big part of the sport. Maybe those sports wouldn't benefit from a small playoff, but again they are national leagues as opposed to a group of conferences of more than 100 teams.

One other thing to think about with the NCAA Tournament. Which is bigger, the first weekend of the Final Four? It's an odd sport because it feels like the attention diminishes once we get to the Final Four instead of increasing.

(04-22-2013 08:27 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(04-22-2013 07:53 AM)JunkYardCard Wrote:  The NBA plays 82 games to cut 14 of 30 teams from the playoffs. And then the playoffs are 7-game series. You're kidding yourself if you don't think the NBA playoffs hurt the regular season.

NBA regular season is great. They never have to run discount promotions to move tickets or do give-aways to try to lure a crowd.

Re: OP

Sorry Doc, but you're wrong. Just based on my personal preference, I haven't watched an NBA or NHL regular season game in years. Because the games don't matter at all. I watch CFB and MLB games all the time, because the regular season matters a lot. I find myself watching less and less regular season CBB every year because the games don't matter.

I don't think that I'm an aberration in this. There's some die-hards that will watch every single game no matter what, but they're a small minority. I'll point out the obvious that the die-hards are way overrepresented on this board in general, and on this thread in particular (which makes sense because die-hard fans are the ones who care enough to argue online about these sorts of things).

I think a couple things need to happen:

1. Players should be allowed to either jump straight from high school OR stay for 3 years.
2. If players DO declare for the draft (either before college or before their senior year) and they don't get drafted in the first round, they would not lose NCAA eligibility.
3. Conferences should be allowed to decide (before the season starts) whether they wish to award the auto-bid to the regular season champ or the tournament champion.

The first item on the list would allow college basketball to retain some talent, but also wouldn't stop a talent like Lebron from going directly to the NBA. It would be a fair solution that wouldn't force players into college (risk of injury; potential drop in stock value), but would give college players enough time to actually develop their games and create a connection with the fans.

The second item is simple. It protects the players. Right now, players that declare for the draft are risking everything for the possibility of an NBA spot. It makes declaring for the draft a much bigger deal than it probably should be. This change would allow players to reconsider their options if they did not receive a guaranteed contract.

Number 3 is, IMHO, the best way to handle the problems with the regular season. Not all conferences have the same priorities. Even among mid-majors. For instance, the MVC might want to give its regular season winner the autobid so they can send a stronger overall team to the dance, while the SWAC would care more about the extra publicity for its tournament. Same thing for the power conferences. Just give them the choice.

Do those three things, and you'll protect the players, keep talent in college basketball, and make the regular season interesting, all without hurting the conferences or the players.

(04-22-2013 09:53 AM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  I think a couple things need to happen:

1. Players should be allowed to either jump straight from high school OR stay for 3 years.
2. If players DO declare for the draft (either before college or before their senior year) and they don't get drafted in the first round, they would not lose NCAA eligibility.
3. Conferences should be allowed to decide (before the season starts) whether they wish to award the auto-bid to the regular season champ or the tournament champion.

#1. Not a bad rule with one change. Go juco and you are eligible for the draft after two years. If you don't like your draft position and opt for a four year college. You have to be a semi-serious student for at least 5 semesters to stay eligible. If you are making degree progress after 5 semesters, odds are you'll eventually finish.

#2. I wouldn't even require they declare for the draft. If the pros want to take a shot, let them do so at their own risk.

#3. We already have this and all but the Ivy have opted for a tournament.

(04-22-2013 08:27 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(04-22-2013 07:53 AM)JunkYardCard Wrote:  The NBA plays 82 games to cut 14 of 30 teams from the playoffs. And then the playoffs are 7-game series. You're kidding yourself if you don't think the NBA playoffs hurt the regular season.

NBA regular season is great. They never have to run discount promotions to move tickets or do give-aways to try to lure a crowd.

The NBA runs on a star system. Colleges often don't know who will be back next year.

The regular season in colleges was hurt by the expansion of the tournament so for many teams, the regular season was an exhibition. At least in the NBA is gets you home court advantage. Now the conference tournaments contribute to the problem, but it was the expansion of the NCAA tourney that started it. The expansion of the tourney has even hurt the conference tournaments. In a 12 team major conference typically 1/3 are a lock in the NCAA, 1/3 are out and have no realistic shot of winning the conference tourney and 1/3 are NCAA bubble or out but with a shot at winning the tourney. So the conference tourneys only matter to the middle 1/3.