As an expansion junkie (like most of the rest of you), I've played around with hypothetical conference models for my league and your league for years now...12 teams, 14, 16, 18, 20...and it seems like a prevailing idea is that once you hit 16, you probably need to go to pods to keep some equality in the amount of times you play everyone in your league.

No one is currently at 16, so we're all just spitballing here anyway...but what if a conference that hits 16-20 teams isn't thinking about simply having a conference championship game anymore? What if they are thinking semi-final AND final?

What's to stop a 16-team Big Ten (my conference of choice) from having no divisions at all and protecting 3 teams--traditional rivals and TV-moneymakers--only on the schedule while allowing the other 12 teams to flow on and off the schedule evenly? That means every team would play every other team in the Big Ten at least twice every four years.

Then, you have a "playoff race" for the top 4 spots...which most likely wouldn't begin to be decided until early-November in any given season...and probably wouldn't be finally decided until the final week.

There may be "NCAA rules" that would need tweaking, but is there any other good reasons why the SEC/Big Ten couldn't leverage another whole round of elite football (more TV dollars...) out of their expansions?

My officemate is a PhD in Operations Management, and he's a nut on this subject (just like me). He says that scheduling a 16 team Big 10/SEC is nearly impossible to do without pods. There's simply too many intertwined rivalries to make it work without pods.

With a 9-game conference schedule, there are two alternatives to pods: 1) A lot of rivalries get relegated to once every 8 years, or 2) you never play anyone in the other division.

A 10-game conference schedule would help, but then you'd still be looking at playing a lot of rivalries once every 4 years or playing the other half of the conference only once every 8 years (both undesirable, as is a 10-game schedule for the lower tier teams who worry about being bowl eligible).

I agree with your office mate...if you are talking about divisions without pods. I'm talking about NO DIVISIONS.

Divisions means that you hardly ever play the other team on the other side. The pod concept means that you play certain teams regularly...and the other teams MORE than you would with divisions.

But what happens if you do a straight-up league...simply take the top 2 (or top 4 if they can swing it with the NCAA) and do a little playoff from there?

I like the OP's idea but I thought I read somewhere that there was an NCAA rule against conferences having semi-finals. Maybe I'm wrong, there is so much crap out there...

Pods can be used for rotational scheduling purposes only. Actual divisions can then be lined up as combined pods.

So, below, is the "straight up" standings for the Big Ten last season. Imagine the four expansion teams played in the Big Ten...and imagine OSU didn't give money to its star players and imagine PSU's Board of Trustees wasn't a bunch of idiots (no probations)...

Below are the conference records from last season. After the records, I placed the three "protected" games of yearly opponents. If the Big Ten went to a 9-game schedule, they'd play everybody in the BIg Ten (16) twice every four years.

The December 1st semifinals would be played on home fields of high seeds. So...
12/1--UM at Nebraska
12/1--PSU at OSU

Big Ten championship game in Indy on Dec. 8.

Ohio State* 8-0 1.000 12-0 1.000 PSU, Michigan. Illinois
Nebraska 7-1 0.875 10-4 0.714 Wisc, Iowa, PSU
Michigan 6-2 0.750 8-5 .615 OSU, MSU, Minn
Penn State* 6-2 0.750 8-4 0.667 Rutgers, Nebraska OSU
Northwestern 5-3 0.625 10-3 0.739 Illinois, Indiana, UVA
Rutgers+ 5-3 0.625 9-4 0.692 PSU, UMD, UNC
UNC+ 5-3 0.625 8-4 0.667 UVA, UMD, Rutgers
Wisconsin 4-4 0.500 8-6 0.571 Nebraska, Iowa, Minn
Michigan State 3-5 0.375 7-6 0.538 UM, Indiana, Purdue
Minnesota 2-6 0.250 6-7 0.462 Wisc, UM, Iowa
Iowa 2-6 0.250 4-8 0.333 Nebraska, Wisc, Minn
Purdue 3-5 0.375 6-7 0.462 Indiana, Illinois, MSU
UVA+ 2-6 0.250 4-8 0.333 UMD, UNC, Northwestern
Indiana 2-6 0.250 4-8 0.333 Purdue, Northwestern, MSU
Maryland+ 2-6 0.250 4-8 0.333 UVA, UNC, Rutgers
Illinois 0-8 0-8 0.000 2-10 .167 OSU, NW, Purdue

(03-19-2013 06:47 AM)Big 12 Wrote:  I like the OP's idea but I thought I read somewhere that there was an NCAA rule against conferences having semi-finals. Maybe I'm wrong, there is so much crap out there...

You are correct. One of the issues of the proposed MW and CUSA merger was there couldn't be a semi-final.

If enough of the big name conferences want a semi-final game, the rule will be changed, or they'll simply create their own organization to get what they want. Either way, if the big name conferences want it, it will happen...

(03-19-2013 06:47 AM)Big 12 Wrote:  I like the OP's idea but I thought I read somewhere that there was an NCAA rule against conferences having semi-finals. Maybe I'm wrong, there is so much crap out there...

Not that they've rules against them it's that the rules limit teams to:
12 regular season games.
1 off-shore game
1 conference championship game
1 bowl game
And now up to two games if selected for the playoffs.

Absent changing the rules, you can't do the semi-final concept without giving up a regular season game.

Wouldn't mind seeing college football games played all winter. Wouldn't work but would be fantastic.

(03-19-2013 10:05 AM)GoApps70 Wrote:  Wouldn't mind seeing college football games played all winter. Wouldn't work but would be fantastic.

True dat... How about a summer squad and a winter squad. All year would be fine with me. I am in total withdrawal...

(03-19-2013 06:47 AM)Big 12 Wrote:  I like the OP's idea but I thought I read somewhere that there was an NCAA rule against conferences having semi-finals. Maybe I'm wrong, there is so much crap out there...

Both pods and semifinal conference championships are against NCAA rules.

However, if the B1G and the SEC wanted to change that, my money is on that rule going out the window.

(03-19-2013 12:46 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(03-19-2013 06:47 AM)Big 12 Wrote:  I like the OP's idea but I thought I read somewhere that there was an NCAA rule against conferences having semi-finals. Maybe I'm wrong, there is so much crap out there...

Both pods and semifinal conference championships are against NCAA rules.

However, if the B1G and the SEC wanted to change that, my money is on that rule going out the window.

1) I'm not aware of any rule against pods, as long as you re-combine them into temporary divisions. No rule I know of says you can't juggle divisions every single year to achieve effective (if not actual) pods.

2) there IS a rule against a semi-final round - it's the 12 games max. rule - the only exceptions being (a) a single championship game between divisional winners, or (b) a team who plays Hawaii (or a couple of other out of the way schools who don't even sponsor football currently).

Finally, why can't we have pods with 14 teams? 2 pods of 4 + 2 pods of 3 - there are a number of ways to schedule them so you play ever team home & away in no more than 4 years, with only an 8-game conference schedule required (16 teams requires a 9-game schedule, etc.)

(03-19-2013 02:47 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(03-19-2013 12:46 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(03-19-2013 06:47 AM)Big 12 Wrote:  I like the OP's idea but I thought I read somewhere that there was an NCAA rule against conferences having semi-finals. Maybe I'm wrong, there is so much crap out there...

Both pods and semifinal conference championships are against NCAA rules.

However, if the B1G and the SEC wanted to change that, my money is on that rule going out the window.

1) I'm not aware of any rule against pods, as long as you re-combine them into temporary divisions. No rule I know of says you can't juggle divisions every single year to achieve effective (if not actual) pods.

2) there IS a rule against a semi-final round - it's the 12 games max. rule - the only exceptions being (a) a single championship game between divisional winners, or (b) a team who plays Hawaii (or a couple of other out of the way schools who don't even sponsor football currently).

Finally, why can't we have pods with 14 teams? 2 pods of 4 + 2 pods of 3 - there are a number of ways to schedule them so you play ever team home & away in no more than 4 years, with only an 8-game conference schedule required (16 teams requires a 9-game schedule, etc.)

I think that we're arguing semantics. I would call what you described in "1)" as divisions and I am pretty sure that's OK. To me, the term "pods" impliesmore than 2 division at one time, which is not OK.

(03-19-2013 05:48 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  My officemate is a PhD in Operations Management, and he's a nut on this subject (just like me). He says that scheduling a 16 team Big 10/SEC is nearly impossible to do without pods. There's simply too many intertwined rivalries to make it work without pods.

With a 9-game conference schedule, there are two alternatives to pods: 1) A lot of rivalries get relegated to once every 8 years, or 2) you never play anyone in the other division.

A 10-game conference schedule would help, but then you'd still be looking at playing a lot of rivalries once every 4 years or playing the other half of the conference only once every 8 years (both undesirable, as is a 10-game schedule for the lower tier teams who worry about being bowl eligible).

Your coworker is absolutely right. I have been trying to get this across to folks for quite awhile now that moving to 16 absolutely means that the static 2 division concept is dead. The 10 game conference schedule is coming too. Not set time for that but it is an eventuality.

(03-19-2013 07:38 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(03-19-2013 02:47 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(03-19-2013 12:46 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(03-19-2013 06:47 AM)Big 12 Wrote:  I like the OP's idea but I thought I read somewhere that there was an NCAA rule against conferences having semi-finals. Maybe I'm wrong, there is so much crap out there...

Both pods and semifinal conference championships are against NCAA rules.

However, if the B1G and the SEC wanted to change that, my money is on that rule going out the window.

1) I'm not aware of any rule against pods, as long as you re-combine them into temporary divisions. No rule I know of says you can't juggle divisions every single year to achieve effective (if not actual) pods.

2) there IS a rule against a semi-final round - it's the 12 games max. rule - the only exceptions being (a) a single championship game between divisional winners, or (b) a team who plays Hawaii (or a couple of other out of the way schools who don't even sponsor football currently).

Finally, why can't we have pods with 14 teams? 2 pods of 4 + 2 pods of 3 - there are a number of ways to schedule them so you play ever team home & away in no more than 4 years, with only an 8-game conference schedule required (16 teams requires a 9-game schedule, etc.)

I think that we're arguing semantics. I would call what you described in "1)" as divisions and I am pretty sure that's OK. To me, the term "pods" impliesmore than 2 division at one time, which is not OK.

Nope "pods" means a "sub-division" grouping. They combine to form 2 divisions. The NCAA would actually have to pass a new rule stating that the two divisions have to be situated the exact same way year after year in order for conferences to not use interchangeable pods in order to form two divisions every year.

(03-19-2013 08:03 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(03-19-2013 07:38 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(03-19-2013 02:47 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(03-19-2013 12:46 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(03-19-2013 06:47 AM)Big 12 Wrote:  I like the OP's idea but I thought I read somewhere that there was an NCAA rule against conferences having semi-finals. Maybe I'm wrong, there is so much crap out there...

Both pods and semifinal conference championships are against NCAA rules.

However, if the B1G and the SEC wanted to change that, my money is on that rule going out the window.

1) I'm not aware of any rule against pods, as long as you re-combine them into temporary divisions. No rule I know of says you can't juggle divisions every single year to achieve effective (if not actual) pods.

2) there IS a rule against a semi-final round - it's the 12 games max. rule - the only exceptions being (a) a single championship game between divisional winners, or (b) a team who plays Hawaii (or a couple of other out of the way schools who don't even sponsor football currently).

Finally, why can't we have pods with 14 teams? 2 pods of 4 + 2 pods of 3 - there are a number of ways to schedule them so you play ever team home & away in no more than 4 years, with only an 8-game conference schedule required (16 teams requires a 9-game schedule, etc.)

I think that we're arguing semantics. I would call what you described in "1)" as divisions and I am pretty sure that's OK. To me, the term "pods" implies more than 2 division at one time, which is not OK.

Nope "pods" means a "sub-division" grouping. They combine to form 2 divisions. The NCAA would actually have to pass a new rule stating that the two divisions have to be situated the exact same way year after year in order for conferences to not use interchangeable pods in order to form two divisions every year.

...unless you define "pods" more generally as simply a sub-grouping of teams within the conference. Under that definition, a 16 team conference could have 4 pods which would each send a team to a semi-final conference playoff game, like the OP suggested (which is the way ther term "conference pods" comes up 99% of the time). In such a case, the NCAA would absolutely have to change rules, which is why this entire discussion is based on semantics.

I can't tell if you're trying to troll, dumb, or is you misread what I initially wrote, but I hope that clarifies it in the event that you aren't a troll.

(03-19-2013 08:51 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(03-19-2013 08:03 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(03-19-2013 07:38 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(03-19-2013 02:47 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(03-19-2013 12:46 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  Both pods and semifinal conference championships are against NCAA rules.

However, if the B1G and the SEC wanted to change that, my money is on that rule going out the window.

1) I'm not aware of any rule against pods, as long as you re-combine them into temporary divisions. No rule I know of says you can't juggle divisions every single year to achieve effective (if not actual) pods.

2) there IS a rule against a semi-final round - it's the 12 games max. rule - the only exceptions being (a) a single championship game between divisional winners, or (b) a team who plays Hawaii (or a couple of other out of the way schools who don't even sponsor football currently).

Finally, why can't we have pods with 14 teams? 2 pods of 4 + 2 pods of 3 - there are a number of ways to schedule them so you play ever team home & away in no more than 4 years, with only an 8-game conference schedule required (16 teams requires a 9-game schedule, etc.)

I think that we're arguing semantics. I would call what you described in "1)" as divisions and I am pretty sure that's OK. To me, the term "pods" implies more than 2 division at one time, which is not OK.

Nope "pods" means a "sub-division" grouping. They combine to form 2 divisions. The NCAA would actually have to pass a new rule stating that the two divisions have to be situated the exact same way year after year in order for conferences to not use interchangeable pods in order to form two divisions every year.

...unless you define "pods" more generally as simply a sub-grouping of teams within the conference. Under that definition, a 16 team conference could have 4 pods which would each send a team to a semi-final conference playoff game, like the OP suggested (which is the way ther term "conference pods" comes up 99% of the time). In such a case, the NCAA would absolutely have to change rules, which is why this entire discussion is based on semantics.

I can't tell if you're trying to troll, dumb, or is you misread what I initially wrote, but I hope that clarifies it in the event that you aren't a troll.

Whenever people talk about pods as if they are divisions, they are the persons being dumb. Anytime an actual entity such as a conference has talked about pods, they have talked about them as being something of a "sub-division". I cant tell if you are completely unable to handle someone correcting you, which is what I was doing, but if that is the case then that does not make me a troll that just makes you incapable of handling someone correcting you.

It does not matter if people supposedly are talking about divisions when they say the word pod. That just means that people are wrong 99% of the time. It is ok to say people are incorrect a majority of the time. Most human beings are genetically indisposed to acting like herd animals.

So if it makes you feel better to call me a troll rather than realizing that you were wrong then so be it. I am quite alright with you continuing as a herd animal.

Seriously, pods are not divisions so stop talking about them as if they are. If they Were then we would just call them DIVISIONS instead of using two F'n names for the same F'n thing. It really is not a difficult concept. A POD is not a DIVISION! There are no rules stopping four pods from existing, there are rules stopping four divisions from existing. Four divisions lead to Semifinals, four pods do not. Not....difficult.

If the B1G or SEC (or both) wanted a conference semifinal round, they would get the NCAA rules changed - and in short order. Note how the new playoff game was added this past year without a peep of discussion or debate. The MWC/CUSA merger wasn't going to be enough to move the needle as that conference wasn't going to have the clout to get the rule changed. The B1G/SEC do.

Thanks for the input, guys.

I do think "pods" makes sense if you are going to 16. But the whole "Jumbo Big Ten" scenario (18 or 20) just seems to lose all feeling of a conference (which I think most of us admit). If the Big Ten gets 3-5 ACC teams and all those teams go into the same "pod," the Big Ten will never feel like an integrated conference. It'll feel forever like the ACC pod that plays a few Big Ten teams every year...and some of those teams they'll rarely play at all (once every 6-8 years?!?).

However, if you eliminate pods and divisions, but protect a few rivalries, now you rotate ALL Big Ten teams throughout, and how does that look.

Play three-four rivals every single year (protects regional feel of conference play...much like the NFL model) and then rotate everyone else (about 14-15 teams)...and now you're playing every team in the Jumbo Big Ten twice every six years (or even more frequently).

Line up the standings at the end of the season and snag the top 4 for a semi-final.