I keep seeing USM fans post things like "we won't waste our money joining the A12." Supposedly we're just too smart to pay entrance / exit fees without some kind of guarantee (like that ever happens).

To me, this is ridiculous.My philosophy (and that of a distinct majority of fans,I think) is that you get into the best conference possible and the money just follows. It's not necessary to agonize over the decision or try to make the numbers work in some kind of short-term model. Big 10 teams will always have more money than ACC teams, who will in turn always have more money than A12 teams. CUSA teams will have less money still, and the MAC and SBC will have the least.

So, my question is this: does anyone outside USM seriously think we should turn down a bid to a better conference?

And relatedly, has any school ever really experienced long-term financial hardship due to exit/entry fees? Or has any school ever really had any reason to regret moving up?

My answer to both questions is "no," and I therefore think that the species of bear that USM fans claim to be afraid of doesn't even exist.

II would like an outside opinion, though. USM fans (here) seem to think CUSA is just great. I wonder if we should even bother... plenty of schools do just fine playing hoops only.

(03-12-2013 06:02 PM)AndreWhere Wrote:  I keep seeing USM fans post things like "we won't waste our money joining the A12." Supposedly we're just too smart to pay entrance / exit fees without some kind of guarantee (like that ever happens).

To me, this is ridiculous.My philosophy (and that of a distinct majority of fans,I think) is that you get into the best conference possible and the money just follows. It's not necessary to agonize over the decision or try to make the numbers work in some kind of short-term model. Big 10 teams will always have more money than ACC teams, who will in turn always have more money than A12 teams. CUSA teams will have less money still, and the MAC and SBC will have the least.

So, my question is this: does anyone outside USM seriously think we should turn down a bid to a better conference?

And relatedly, has any school ever really experienced long-term financial hardship due to exit/entry fees? Or has any school ever really had any reason to regret moving up?

My answer to both questions is "no," and I therefore think that the species of bear that USM fans claim to be afraid of doesn't even exist.

II would like an outside opinion, though. USM fans (here) seem to think CUSA is just great. I wonder if we should even bother... plenty of schools do just fine playing hoops only.

These days, it seems like you have to "move up" just to stay even as existing conferences are depleted by schools leaving for greener pastures. But in any case, I agree with you for the most part. In the cases where combined exit/entry fees are less than $10,000,000 or so, it makes no sense to pass up an invite. A better reason might be the affect of losing rivalries, or joining a conference with no other teams within driving distance. But the money is typically chump change compared to the impact on revenue or the overall university budget.

There are lots of reasons to not join a conference. An entrance fee shouldn't be the reason you say no. Typically entrance fees are proportional to how much more you expect to make in the conference (at least relatively of course) so saying no just for that seems petty.

Granted we all know what is really going on here. The fans really don't want to go because they don't want to be seen as the desperate cheap date to the dance for someone else that is very desperate. Pride is a funny thing.

(03-12-2013 06:02 PM)AndreWhere Wrote:  So, my question is this: does anyone outside USM seriously think we should turn down a bid to a better conference?

And relatedly, has any school ever really experienced long-term financial hardship due to exit/entry fees? Or has any school ever really had any reason to regret moving up?

Big-money exit fees are kind of a new thing. I'm pretty sure that Nebraska and Colorado were the first schools to pay more than $1M. On the one hand, it's not crazy to think that a $10M or $20M or $50M exit fee could be a huge outlay for benefits that don't materialize, a lot like an expensive stadium that fans still don't go to. On the other hand, it seems pretty likely that courts will not enforce punitive exit fees anyway.

Part of the reason for the angst in the Aresco League is that a lot of CUSA fans think that schools are going to have to pay $6.5M or so, when it's probably going to be $500,000. Another part is that the Aresco LEague teams are paying a $2.5M entry fee. Paying $9M total to go from CUSA 2015 to the Aresco League 2015 isn't a good deal.

It's kind of a moot point, since I'm pretty sure that the new schools will get their entry fees waived, and the CUSA exit fee will end up being just $500,000.

(03-12-2013 08:01 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(03-12-2013 06:02 PM)AndreWhere Wrote:  So, my question is this: does anyone outside USM seriously think we should turn down a bid to a better conference?

And relatedly, has any school ever really experienced long-term financial hardship due to exit/entry fees? Or has any school ever really had any reason to regret moving up?

Big-money exit fees are kind of a new thing. I'm pretty sure that Nebraska and Colorado were the first schools to pay more than $1M. On the one hand, it's not crazy to think that a $10M or $20M or $50M exit fee could be a huge outlay for benefits that don't materialize, a lot like an expensive stadium that fans still don't go to. On the other hand, it seems pretty likely that courts will not enforce punitive exit fees anyway.

Part of the reason for the angst in the Aresco League is that a lot of CUSA fans think that schools are going to have to pay $6.5M or so, when it's probably going to be $500,000. Another part is that the Aresco LEague teams are paying a $2.5M entry fee. Paying $9M total to go from CUSA 2015 to the Aresco League 2015 isn't a good deal.

It's kind of a moot point, since I'm pretty sure that the new schools will get their entry fees waived, and the CUSA exit fee will end up being just $500,000.

Miami and VTech's exit fees were one million dollars.

(03-12-2013 07:31 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  Granted we all know what is really going on here. The fans really don't want to go because they don't want to be seen as the desperate cheap date to the dance for someone else that is very desperate. Pride is a funny thing.

This is at the heart of the truth in regards to USM, especially those in position to help fund things like exit/entrance fees and buyouts of contracts of the worst coaches in the history of college football.

These guys remember a time when USM considered itself on the same level as other southern independents like Florida State, Louisville, South Carolina, Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech. Whether that was truly the case is irrelevant -- USM fans, especially boosters and heavy donors, saw themselves that way. The schedule was often filled with SEC schools and you heard statements like, "the only thing keeping Southern out of the SEC is that they won't take three schools in Mississippi." That was absurd, of course, but it speaks to how they thought of themselves in the 70s and 80s and even into the 90s during the Favre years. The main reason given that Jeff Bower was let go was that he couldn't consistently guide USM to more than nine wins in a season and the school needed someone that could take the team to the next level.

USM supporters have seen almost all of the schools that they considered natural rivals move on to other conferences and to greater monetary rewards. They have seen schools like USF with no history of success and little Division I experience taken ahead of them. This latest insult in which the Big East takes almost all of the remaining CUSA teams, but not them, has just about made heads spin like Linda Blair's in The Exorcist. Trust me. For the vast majority of older USM fans, this isn't at all about money; it's about respect and pride. In spite of what any say on this board about not accepting an A12 invitation, USM would immediately accept that invitation. If nothing else, it would reunite them with Cincinnati, Houston, ECU, UCF, Tulane and Memphis -- schools they care about. The only thing better than that to a lot of USM fans would be if Louisville were staying and the A12 could miraculously get FSU and Va. Tech to join them.

(03-12-2013 06:02 PM)AndreWhere Wrote:  So, my question is this: does anyone outside USM seriously think we should turn down a bid to a better conference?

And relatedly, has any school ever really experienced long-term financial hardship due to exit/entry fees? Or has any school ever really had any reason to regret moving up?

Idaho might be an example.

With the new format it would almost seem better to stay in CUSA instead of jumping up. Why not stay and have a supposed easier path to a championship that could lead to the G5's bowl allotment? Or even make your team look better by running through the conference for a few years and benefiting from the wins and exposure.

First: Thanks for the invite for "outsiders" to comment on your schools future. Probably many of your fellow fans and posters are not and will not be in favor of that, probably with good reason. However, sometimes it may bring about another point of view.

My perspective is that it is not a great deal, particularly the exit fees seem too steep. However, feel that SoMiss should do it. Not just for playing like minded universities, some that you have played over the years, but for your future. The object is not to jump around in the Gang of Five, that does little good. The main reason is for positioning. The gold ring is being a member of the top few conferences of the BCS. Simply put, you are probably not going to get there from where you are now. Therefore, take the poison pill and figure the odds on becoming more than you can be from where you are now.
Good luck to SoMiss and their fans - Can think of no school that can continuously do so much with so little to work with from time to time. We need their grads running more of the federal government.

I think a lot of emphasis is placed on these entry/exit fees relative to media $'s, however in the grand scheme of things, these $'s are not as important to a University as the average outsider is lead to believe. That's not to say $1.8 million is chump change, or a few million in exit fees is chicken feed, but the bigger picture needs to be addressed when determining if making a move to another conference will pay dividends in the future.

Would USM move if offered? Absolutely...but not for the paltry increase in media cash. Exposure is MUCH more valuable to a university athletic program in the long term...exposure on a national scale. Football & Basketball gate receipts and season ticket sales are a top priority for a university. Think about it...every home football game for USM represents at least $1 million in revenue for the school. The more the better. Which season ticket package is likely to sell out quicker: USM vs ECU, Memphis, Tulane, UCF & Houston (teams they've had over 150 games with) or FIU, FAU, ODU, UNT, USTA (Teams they have played a combined 10 games with?) This goes back to exposure as well...I'm not silly enough to believe that a game between ECU and USM will receive the same national appeal that Alabama-Auburn does, but if you don't think it garners more interest and mentions across the country than USM vs UNC Charlotte will, then I don't know what to tell you. Exposure helps recruiting, recruiting creates wins, wins = donations...which are the lifeblood of a school like USM. Not media and conference money.

The poster above touched on PRIDE. He's exactly right. I honestly don't believe any of us (ECU, USM, UCF, Houston, etc) will ever play a down in the SEC, ACC, or the BIGs...but I know that as the ceiling is lifted, we need to continue to climb the ladder. That means getting to that next tier and remaining with like-minded and like-funded institutions to acheive our common goal. No offense to our friends at ODU or UNC-Charlotte, but ECU doesn't want to wait around in CUSA for you guys to catch up to us...just as the powers that be at USM don't necessarily want to stick around while North Texas and FIU catch up to them.

Again, in judging the decision first you have to give more leeway the earlier a school joined. There was a time, after all, when you could put a number on the chance that Marinnato could deliver everything he promised. I'm not saying it was a big number, but it was a number. It becomes a head scratcher, though, because fans ask: Do you move up in prestige when offered? Yes!

If pressed, fans will clarify: Do you move up for more $$ even with a short-term loss? Yes!

But, taking out the fact that some of those fans mentioned above can be deep pockets giving ADs no choice, the real question for schools is: What is the largest reasonable window for ROI? Do we spend $15 million for an extra $5 million per year (factoring in media deals, any bump in ticket sales for better opponents, etc.)? Yes! But as that latter number goes down, the decision is not so easy and other factors come into play. Are we gaining a more stable environment? Better rivalries? Similar schools in mission and profile?

But let's go back to "moving up" whenever you can. Who decides what constitutes "moving up"? If you answer "perception" then whose perception? We all know how we feel about our "tier" of FBS, but find some Ohio St, Texas, or Alabama fans to have a chat with then try to argue that they give 3 flying fu Manchus about the GoF.

So how is perception measured then? Well, it can be argued that if TV networks don't create perception themselves, they certainly reflect it, right? As an AQ conf, the BE media deal was orders of magnitude larger than that of CUSA or MWC. No doubt then that BE was "moving up." But the reality now for the prospective nBE is maybe around 50% more than CUSA or MWC...if not lower, while any incarnation of the ACC will have, as a Cartel member, an even greater revenue advantage over A12, CUSA, and MWC than BE ever had over those last two.

So one can technically argue that perception of A12 will be greater than CUSA or MWC...but "greater" is a vague descriptor when you think about it...and when the amounts of up-front $$ necessary get as large as they will be, a lot of people start thinking about the real meaning of "greater" in much more focused ways.

What it comes down to is what will keep the average fan and especially the big money donors from revolting. Holland's pushing for Charlotte and ODU angered a lot of the wrong ECU donors, and is a big part of the reason he's "retiring." In the end ECU makes far more money in ticket sales and donations than it will from either the Big East or C-USA TV deals, so it's about doing whatever it takes to ensure those totals either continue to grow or at worst don't decline. Staying in a C-USA with teams that disgusted the average fan and especially the long time big money donors would have been a much greater long term financial loss than any potential entry and exit fees.

(03-13-2013 08:26 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  What it comes down to is what will keep the average fan and especially the big money donors from revolting. Holland's pushing for Charlotte and ODU angered a lot of the wrong ECU donors, and is a big part of the reason he's "retiring." In the end ECU makes far more money in ticket sales and donations than it will from either the Big East or C-USA TV deals, so it's about doing whatever it takes to ensure those totals either continue to grow or at worst don't decline. Staying in a C-USA with teams that disgusted the average fan and especially the long time big money donors would have been a much greater long term financial loss than any potential entry and exit fees.

Sorry we disgust you guys. BTW, you are ECU, not Alabama.

(03-13-2013 08:32 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(03-13-2013 08:26 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  What it comes down to is what will keep the average fan and especially the big money donors from revolting. Holland's pushing for Charlotte and ODU angered a lot of the wrong ECU donors, and is a big part of the reason he's "retiring." In the end ECU makes far more money in ticket sales and donations than it will from either the Big East or C-USA TV deals, so it's about doing whatever it takes to ensure those totals either continue to grow or at worst don't decline. Staying in a C-USA with teams that disgusted the average fan and especially the long time big money donors would have been a much greater long term financial loss than any potential entry and exit fees.

Sorry we disgust you guys. BTW, you are ECU, not Alabama.

Apology accepted. I'm sorry ECU fans don't want to be in a league where half the schools weren't even at the FBS level in 2000.

It really doesn't matter that ECU & USM aren't Alabama type of programs. The facts are the facts. Neither program ever played a down of FCS football and the fans (especially the older big $ donors) busted their ASSES to make sure that never happened. Now we see large market schools being gifted FBS invitiations mostly due to location. So next time an FCS move-up school wants to make smart ass remarks, consider that.

(03-12-2013 06:02 PM)AndreWhere Wrote:  I keep seeing USM fans post things like "we won't waste our money joining the A12." Supposedly we're just too smart to pay entrance / exit fees without some kind of guarantee (like that ever happens).

To me, this is ridiculous.My philosophy (and that of a distinct majority of fans,I think) is that you get into the best conference possible and the money just follows. It's not necessary to agonize over the decision or try to make the numbers work in some kind of short-term model. Big 10 teams will always have more money than ACC teams, who will in turn always have more money than A12 teams. CUSA teams will have less money still, and the MAC and SBC will have the least.

So, my question is this: does anyone outside USM seriously think we should turn down a bid to a better conference?

And relatedly, has any school ever really experienced long-term financial hardship due to exit/entry fees? Or has any school ever really had any reason to regret moving up?

My answer to both questions is "no," and I therefore think that the species of bear that USM fans claim to be afraid of doesn't even exist.

II would like an outside opinion, though. USM fans (here) seem to think CUSA is just great. I wonder if we should even bother... plenty of schools do just fine playing hoops only.

Let's quit lying to ourselves about realignment. When fans say its about being on the same level as their rivals its means that they don't want their inflated egos hurt. When ADs and Presidents say it's about being with similar minded schools or about the academics of the other members etc... they are making just as specious of an argument as those people who still refer to college athletes as "student" athletes. It is ALL about the money. They move because they believe that they are going to find the Holy Grail and get more dollars pumped into the athletic department.

As a SouthernMiss fan of over 50 years, a season ticket holder for nearly 40 years and contributor to both the athletic side and academic side of the university foundation I can say with certainty that I don't want to go anywhere until we can examine facts, not Aresco's exaggerated opinions, that make it certain that in the long run (not the next 5 years) whatever we invest gets a fair return. Right now the NNNC (New No Name Conference) can't do that. Maybe it can in 2 years or 3 years, but based upon the difference between what was touted as the benefits and are actually being delivered it isn't there.

(03-12-2013 10:50 PM)Zombiewoof Wrote:  

(03-12-2013 07:31 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  Granted we all know what is really going on here. The fans really don't want to go because they don't want to be seen as the desperate cheap date to the dance for someone else that is very desperate. Pride is a funny thing.

This is at the heart of the truth in regards to USM, especially those in position to help fund things like exit/entrance fees and buyouts of contracts of the worst coaches in the history of college football.

These guys remember a time when USM considered itself on the same level as other southern independents like Florida State, Louisville, South Carolina, Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech. Whether that was truly the case is irrelevant -- USM fans, especially boosters and heavy donors, saw themselves that way. The schedule was often filled with SEC schools and you heard statements like, "the only thing keeping Southern out of the SEC is that they won't take three schools in Mississippi." That was absurd, of course, but it speaks to how they thought of themselves in the 70s and 80s and even into the 90s during the Farve years. The main reason given that Jeff Bower was let go was that he couldn't consistently guide USM to more than nine wins in a season and the school needed someone that could take the team to the next level.

USM supporters have seen almost all of the schools that they considered natural rivals move on to other conferences and to greater monetary rewards. They have seen schools like USF with no history of success and little Division I experience taken ahead of them. This latest insult in which the Big East takes almost all of the remaining CUSA teams, but not them, has just about made heads spin like Linda Blair's in The Exorcist. Trust me. For the vast majority of older USM fans, this isn't at all about money; it's about respect and pride. In spite of what any say on this board about not accepting an A12 invitation, USM would immediately accept that invitation. If nothing else, it would reunite them with Cincinnati, Houston, ECU, UCF, Tulane and Memphis -- schools they care about. The only thing better than that to a lot of USM fans would be if Louisville were staying and the A12 could miraculously get FSU and Va. Tech to join them.

You really get it. Thank you for a great post.

Most of those teams you listed (FSU, VPI, GA Tech...) have been in a conference with us. Some of them have been in two conferences with us. It's not crazy talk to say they were our peers.

If we concede that's no longer the case, then we have to look at the next tier down: Tulane, ECU, Tulsa, etc. The lines are blurry, but I'm talking about the top stratum of the non-AQs. We definitely were peers with those schools until recently.

So now we've watched at least two whole layers of schools surpass us. I'm detecting a problem here. There's a pattern that needs to be stopped.

And yet, I still see USM fans clinging to CUSA, fretting about money (which is complete stupidity) and talking about all the potential UTSA, ODU, etc. have. I think part of the problem is that the median age on the internet is 12. People don't even remember when we weren't a joke.

EDIT : I will contradict you on one thing : I think we may have turned down an invitation, or at least spurned some informal advances. Our AD at present is a great guy, but I don't think he's got that same historical perspective that we were both talking about. He's more of a "bean counter,"and CUSA makes things pretty easy for him. Moving up would just be a lot of work for him that I don't think he necessarily feels prepared for.

(03-13-2013 01:25 PM)AndreWhere Wrote:  

(03-12-2013 10:50 PM)Zombiewoof Wrote:  

(03-12-2013 07:31 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  Granted we all know what is really going on here. The fans really don't want to go because they don't want to be seen as the desperate cheap date to the dance for someone else that is very desperate. Pride is a funny thing.

This is at the heart of the truth in regards to USM, especially those in position to help fund things like exit/entrance fees and buyouts of contracts of the worst coaches in the history of college football.

These guys remember a time when USM considered itself on the same level as other southern independents like Florida State, Louisville, South Carolina, Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech. Whether that was truly the case is irrelevant -- USM fans, especially boosters and heavy donors, saw themselves that way. The schedule was often filled with SEC schools and you heard statements like, "the only thing keeping Southern out of the SEC is that they won't take three schools in Mississippi." That was absurd, of course, but it speaks to how they thought of themselves in the 70s and 80s and even into the 90s during the Farve years. The main reason given that Jeff Bower was let go was that he couldn't consistently guide USM to more than nine wins in a season and the school needed someone that could take the team to the next level.

USM supporters have seen almost all of the schools that they considered natural rivals move on to other conferences and to greater monetary rewards. They have seen schools like USF with no history of success and little Division I experience taken ahead of them. This latest insult in which the Big East takes almost all of the remaining CUSA teams, but not them, has just about made heads spin like Linda Blair's in The Exorcist. Trust me. For the vast majority of older USM fans, this isn't at all about money; it's about respect and pride. In spite of what any say on this board about not accepting an A12 invitation, USM would immediately accept that invitation. If nothing else, it would reunite them with Cincinnati, Houston, ECU, UCF, Tulane and Memphis -- schools they care about. The only thing better than that to a lot of USM fans would be if Louisville were staying and the A12 could miraculously get FSU and Va. Tech to join them.

You really get it. Thank you for a great post.

Most of those teams you listed (FSU, VPI, GA Tech...) have been in a conference with us. Some of them have been in two conferences with us. It's not crazy talk to say they were our peers.

If we concede that's no longer the case, then we have to look at the next tier down: Tulane, ECU, Tulsa, etc. The lines are blurry, but I'm talking about the top stratum of the non-AQs. We definitely were peers with those schools until recently.

So now we've watched at least two whole layers of schools surpass us. I'm detecting a problem here. There's a pattern that needs to be stopped.

And yet, I still see USM fans clinging to CUSA, fretting about money (which is complete stupidity) and talking about all the potential UTSA, ODU, etc. have. I think part of the problem is that the median age on the internet is 12. People don't even remember when we weren't a joke.

EDIT : I will contradict you on one thing : I think we may have turned down an invitation, or at least spurned some informal advances. Our AD at present is a great guy, but I don't think he's got that same historical perspective that we were both talking about. He's more of a "bean counter,"and CUSA makes things pretty easy for him. Moving up would just be a lot of work for him that I don't think he necessarily feels prepared for.

Andre, if you believe that money is not a serious consideration in this process, then you haven't talked to anyone on the Board of Institutions of Higher Learning who, by the way, would have to approve the move.

I know money matters. But we bought out Ellis Johnson, and if we can afford to pay that old lunatic money for nothing, we can finance a conference change (which will only help in the long run).

I think that IHL would jump at the possibility of USM moving up. It's only more prestige and money for their overall system. And their boss (Gov. Bryant) got his undergraduate degree from USM.

I just think the money argument is irrelevant... it's like questioning whether you can afford a necktie for the six-figure job you're trying to get.

Great post by Zombie

Realignment (for most schools) is about 2 things:

Increasing your financial income by being associated with the biggest and best athletic brands in your state and region.

Increasing your academic perception by being associated with the biggest and best academic brands in your state and region.

USM wants to be perceived nationally as an academic and athletic equal of Ole Miss, MSU, Auburn and Alabama and the other big southern SEC and ACC schools.

But they are falling further and further from the possibility of ever being in the same conference with those schools and therefore farther and farther away from being perceived as an equal of those schools.