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Cronin: ‘Never underestimate winning’
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JackieTreehorn Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Cronin: ‘Never underestimate winning’
(03-11-2013 12:36 PM)uchoops Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 12:27 PM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  Look, I'm not claiming this team is some kind of offensive juggernaut or Final 4 material. They're not, but they do rank 152 out of 347 schools in offensive efficiency which while far from awe inspiring, isn't exactly the worst in the country. Couple that with a 23rd ranked scoring defense, you can win your share of games. If someone read the comments here in a vacuum, they'd think this team was 10-21, not 21-10. Woulda, shoulda, coulda. At this late stage you play with the players ya got and hope for the best.

Tell me how they rank offensively since january 1st...

What's your point? I could ask the same question with regard to Syracuse( who could only manage 39 points in their last game), UL, Georgetown, Marquette, etc...
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that your stats come down to earth some when you start play in one of the best basketball conferences in America compared to some of the patty cake leagues.
Still doesn't change my point that offensive output is down for just about everyone this season. You make it sound like UC is the only one who has struggled.
 
03-11-2013 01:05 PM
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BeerCat Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Cronin: ‘Never underestimate winning’
I am excited to see UC play a non Big East team, I know that.
 
03-11-2013 01:11 PM
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uchoops Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Cronin: ‘Never underestimate winning’
(03-11-2013 01:05 PM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 12:36 PM)uchoops Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 12:27 PM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  Look, I'm not claiming this team is some kind of offensive juggernaut or Final 4 material. They're not, but they do rank 152 out of 347 schools in offensive efficiency which while far from awe inspiring, isn't exactly the worst in the country. Couple that with a 23rd ranked scoring defense, you can win your share of games. If someone read the comments here in a vacuum, they'd think this team was 10-21, not 21-10. Woulda, shoulda, coulda. At this late stage you play with the players ya got and hope for the best.

Tell me how they rank offensively since january 1st...

What's your point? I could ask the same question with regard to Syracuse( who could only manage 39 points in their last game), UL, Georgetown, Marquette, etc...
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that your stats come down to earth some when you start play in one of the best basketball conferences in America compared to some of the patty cake leagues.
Still doesn't change my point that offensive output is down for just about everyone this season. You make it sound like UC is the only one who has struggled.

Last I looked GT, Syr, Marquette and Louisville were ranked teams...we've lost 6 out of our last 8...and these teams at least run some kind of offense...we have great defense....but that's where it ends....Shaq Thomas goes in agains S Fla...looks good attacks the basket...scores a basket...plays about 1 minute and we never see him again the whole game...I'd rather play Shaq than rubles any day...
 
03-11-2013 01:20 PM
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coachpipe Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Cronin: ‘Never underestimate winning’
(03-11-2013 11:34 AM)BigDawg Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 11:23 AM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 10:55 AM)Eastside_J Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 09:46 AM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 07:44 AM)uchoops Wrote:  This is the worse offensive team I have witnessed in my 25 years of going to the Shoe....appears there is no offensive plan in place....throw it around the perimeter...inside man gets the ball once in awhile ..kicks it back out without even attempting to go to the basket...we take a wild shot with 5 seconds left on the clock...very predictable

Amen.

Chucking up all those ill-advised 3 pointers without even trying to get it inside just drives me bonkers.

Who are you going to pass it to inside?

This is problem #1. We have no big who is a threat to score in the post. We quite simply didn't replace Yancy.

Exactly. Someone asked Cronin on his radio show last week about our team having a low basketball IQ. It seems the same could be said about some of the fans. Should hear some of the comments I've heard in my section during a game from the erstwhile John Woodens of fandom. Priceless.
The lack of consistent offense is not a unique UC phenonemon. Been a rampant problem throughout college basketball this season.

It all seems to stem from the greater presence of the AAU ball IMO. You hear a few stories of teams with much less talent that play with great fundamentals that win games or at least make them quite interesting against teams they are not even close to talent wise. It just seems like many AAU teams are just super athletes that just don't take the time to learn all the nuances of the game anymore. Which allows teams with high IQs to compete and gets those players a chance to be seen by colleges and you see many of these guys land at the smaller schools because they are high IQ guys, but not elite athletes. I'd like to see the AAU games cut back (Or at least a max number that players can play in per calendar year) and more time spent on working the fundamentals and less time worrying about the next tournament to play in.

I was listening to Mo Egger on the way home from work on thursday and this is what he was talking about. He was saying It seems the AAU presence in a way has hurt the sport. Alot of players during the AAU circuit are all about themselves and not caring if a team wins or lose. All they care about at the end of the day is if they got "theirs" or not. I know he isnt describing all AAU players, but I can see this being an issue and then for them having to translate from getting theirs to a team game is a giant jump.
 
03-11-2013 01:20 PM
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BearcatBeta Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Cronin: ‘Never underestimate winning’
(03-10-2013 09:09 AM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  Sometimes I think fans need to remind themselves that this isn't pro wrestling-the outcome of games is not pre-determined.
I realize the offensive struggles UC has had at times this season can be frustrating for fans, but it's important to keep in mind that this appears to be problem with most teams. How about Florida going scoreless the last seven minutes to blow a seven point lead and lose to a crappy UK team or Syracuse only managing 39 points yesterday in a lose to Georgetown?
The way this team plays defense tells me the effort by and large is always there, even when the shots don't fall. I thought the booing of SK yesterday was shameful coming from a home crowd on senior day.

I was at game. They weren't booing SK. They were booing the lack of
a play by the offense. And that goes directly to Head Coach Mick Cronin.
Cronin says he has to do a better job of getting the team to follow his formula.. What if the formula sucks Einstein? Coaching staff
is so offense difficient that it's embarassing. I've never seen
the "2or 3 guys pass around the perimeter and the post men stay
stationary" offense EVER WORK for crisssakes.
 
(This post was last modified: 03-11-2013 01:28 PM by BearcatBeta.)
03-11-2013 01:26 PM
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cinbinsportsfan Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Cronin: ‘Never underestimate winning’
(03-11-2013 01:26 PM)BearcatBeta Wrote:  
(03-10-2013 09:09 AM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  Sometimes I think fans need to remind themselves that this isn't pro wrestling-the outcome of games is not pre-determined.
I realize the offensive struggles UC has had at times this season can be frustrating for fans, but it's important to keep in mind that this appears to be problem with most teams. How about Florida going scoreless the last seven minutes to blow a seven point lead and lose to a crappy UK team or Syracuse only managing 39 points yesterday in a lose to Georgetown?
The way this team plays defense tells me the effort by and large is always there, even when the shots don't fall. I thought the booing of SK yesterday was shameful coming from a home crowd on senior day.

I was at game. They weren't booing SK. They were booing the lack of
a play by the offense. And that goes directly to Head Coach Mick Cronin.
Cronin says he has to do a better job of getting the team to follow his formula.. What if the formula sucks Einstein? Coaching staff
is so offense difficient that it's embarassing. I've never seen
the "2or 3 guys pass around the perimeter and the post men stay
stationary" offense EVER WORK for crisssakes.

This. Thank you.
 
03-11-2013 01:29 PM
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Eastside_J Away
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Post: #27
RE: Cronin: ‘Never underestimate winning’
(03-11-2013 11:56 AM)Murph29 Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 11:37 AM)uchoops Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 11:23 AM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 10:55 AM)Eastside_J Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 09:46 AM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  Amen.

Chucking up all those ill-advised 3 pointers without even trying to get it inside just drives me bonkers.

Who are you going to pass it to inside?

This is problem #1. We have no big who is a threat to score in the post. We quite simply didn't replace Yancy.

Exactly. Someone asked Cronin on his radio show last week about our team having a low basketball IQ. It seems the same could be said about some of the fans. Should hear some of the comments I've heard in my section during a game from the erstwhile John Woodens of fandom. Priceless.
The lack of consistent offense is not a unique UC phenonemon. Been a rampant problem throughout college basketball this season.

What are you talking about.???? Have you watched their offense I know thaey don't have an inside threat...whose fault is that? At least try ... these are Division 1 players...there is no movement on offense...even when they were running the 4 guards against S Fla...no movement..standing around and playing catch....pathetic...

I'm in the middle on this. Clearly our bigs aren't very good offensively and can't score. But just because they can't score doesn't mean they aren't good enough to at least catch the ball on the post now and then (and cause the D to collapse a bit). They are also clearly good enough (hell a football walk on is good enough) to to set a proper screen. And our guards are good enough to understand how to v-cut, make runs off screens and do more than just casually three man weave around the outside and look for a shot off the dribble.

So to me, while we don't have anything close to Yancy this year, that only tells half the story. We have decent enough players to at least catch an occassional pass down low and we have decent enough players to run offense better than we currently do.

Cheikh, Big Dave and Gaines aren't strong back to the basket players in the low post. And in the case of Big Dave and Gaines don't CATCH well enough to be used in an inside outside type passing game. How many times have you seen passes fumbled or coughed up?

Cheikh may not have good post moves, and he doesn't pass particularly well (which means he doesn't have much use in the high posts) but he catches fairly well near the basket and has some skills and I do agree needs to be used more.

Justin Jackson doesn't play well at all in the low post, but he is our ONLY high post big guy. But he makes so many effing mistakes in that role that the guards are scared to death to use throw it into him. And now he is injured.

So now we have Parker in the high post, who is effective but small, and Rubles who isn't a threat to shoot the ball, because he won't shoot the ball.

Here is the offensive breakdown
Cheikh - a 5 - only effective in low post.
Big Dave- a 5 - not really useful in halfcourt game except for lobs.
Gaines -has all the athleticism to be a 4/5 - not skilled enough. only useful in low post at this point.
Jackson - our only "sorta" 4 - not a low post, often unreliable in half court at high post. Injured.

Defensively these guys are a whole different story - but offensively this is what we have.

Very frustrating - but IMO this is reality
 
03-11-2013 02:02 PM
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Murph29 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Cronin: ‘Never underestimate winning’
(03-11-2013 02:02 PM)Eastside_J Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 11:56 AM)Murph29 Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 11:37 AM)uchoops Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 11:23 AM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 10:55 AM)Eastside_J Wrote:  Who are you going to pass it to inside?

This is problem #1. We have no big who is a threat to score in the post. We quite simply didn't replace Yancy.

Exactly. Someone asked Cronin on his radio show last week about our team having a low basketball IQ. It seems the same could be said about some of the fans. Should hear some of the comments I've heard in my section during a game from the erstwhile John Woodens of fandom. Priceless.
The lack of consistent offense is not a unique UC phenonemon. Been a rampant problem throughout college basketball this season.

What are you talking about.???? Have you watched their offense I know thaey don't have an inside threat...whose fault is that? At least try ... these are Division 1 players...there is no movement on offense...even when they were running the 4 guards against S Fla...no movement..standing around and playing catch....pathetic...

I'm in the middle on this. Clearly our bigs aren't very good offensively and can't score. But just because they can't score doesn't mean they aren't good enough to at least catch the ball on the post now and then (and cause the D to collapse a bit). They are also clearly good enough (hell a football walk on is good enough) to to set a proper screen. And our guards are good enough to understand how to v-cut, make runs off screens and do more than just casually three man weave around the outside and look for a shot off the dribble.

So to me, while we don't have anything close to Yancy this year, that only tells half the story. We have decent enough players to at least catch an occassional pass down low and we have decent enough players to run offense better than we currently do.

Cheikh, Big Dave and Gaines aren't strong back to the basket players in the low post. And in the case of Big Dave and Gaines don't CATCH well enough to be used in an inside outside type passing game. How many times have you seen passes fumbled or coughed up?

Cheikh may not have good post moves, and he doesn't pass particularly well (which means he doesn't have much use in the high posts) but he catches fairly well near the basket and has some skills and I do agree needs to be used more.

Justin Jackson doesn't play well at all in the low post, but he is our ONLY high post big guy. But he makes so many effing mistakes in that role that the guards are scared to death to use throw it into him. And now he is injured.

So now we have Parker in the high post, who is effective but small, and Rubles who isn't a threat to shoot the ball, because he won't shoot the ball.

Here is the offensive breakdown
Cheikh - a 5 - only effective in low post.
Big Dave- a 5 - not really useful in halfcourt game except for lobs.
Gaines -has all the athleticism to be a 4/5 - not skilled enough. only useful in low post at this point.
Jackson - our only "sorta" 4 - not a low post, often unreliable in half court at high post. Injured.

Defensively these guys are a whole different story - but offensively this is what we have.

Very frustrating - but IMO this is reality

They are all quite limited offensively especially in the low post. But I disagree that 2 of the 3 aren't capable of catching the ball down low, collapsing the defense and kicking it back out. Cheik and Gaines and even David are capable of catching the ball on the block. I've seen them do this and their hands aren't that bad to do this more often than they are. I'm not talking about high post or middle of the zone passes in to the FT line either. We've got JJ and Parker and even Sanders who can catch the ball there. I'm simply talking about the low post dump down from the wing where we get lots of open passes. I'd take the occassional bad pass or bad hand turnover in exchange for the ineffectiveness and predictability of three guards passing it around the permiter or having said bigs try to set some of the poorest picks around.

Bottom line is there are at least three things we could be doing better which mitigate SOME of the deficiencies we have with inside players. We could be getting the ball inside outside a bit more, setting better screens, running better cuts and running off screens better than we are. When we stand for 15 seconds dribbling the ball without one person moving off the ball and the ball handler going nowhere, we are klling ourselves offensively. Yancy was great at scoring from that low post. None of these guys will ever do that. But Yance also helped our offense and guards by kicking it back out to the low post passer or turning and kicking it out to the opposite wing which gave us open shots or open drives. The shots and offense came off those passes and not off a ball handler trying create offense off the dribble without a pass.

If you just throw in a few of those post passes now and then each half, you get the defense's attention more than just singly focused on the perimiter.
 
(This post was last modified: 03-11-2013 02:26 PM by Murph29.)
03-11-2013 02:25 PM
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Former Lurker Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Cronin: ‘Never underestimate winning’
(03-11-2013 01:11 PM)BeerCat Wrote:  I am excited to see UC play a non Big East team, I know that.

To my eyes, the B1G is clearly the strongest conference this year. It'll be interesting to see if the NCAA results bear that out.
 
03-11-2013 02:37 PM
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JackieTreehorn Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Cronin: ‘Never underestimate winning’
(03-11-2013 01:26 PM)BearcatBeta Wrote:  
(03-10-2013 09:09 AM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  Sometimes I think fans need to remind themselves that this isn't pro wrestling-the outcome of games is not pre-determined.
I realize the offensive struggles UC has had at times this season can be frustrating for fans, but it's important to keep in mind that this appears to be problem with most teams. How about Florida going scoreless the last seven minutes to blow a seven point lead and lose to a crappy UK team or Syracuse only managing 39 points yesterday in a lose to Georgetown?
The way this team plays defense tells me the effort by and large is always there, even when the shots don't fall. I thought the booing of SK yesterday was shameful coming from a home crowd on senior day.

I was at game. They weren't booing SK. They were booing the lack of
a play by the offense. And that goes directly to Head Coach Mick Cronin.
Cronin says he has to do a better job of getting the team to follow his formula.. What if the formula sucks Einstein? Coaching staff
is so offense difficient that it's embarassing. I've never seen
the "2or 3 guys pass around the perimeter and the post men stay
stationary" offense EVER WORK for crisssakes.

I don't know about you, but I don't have the ESP powers to tell precisely what people are booing. Not exactly a big leap to say that if a player attempts a trey and it clangs off the rim and then boos immediately break out than it's the player who is the likely object of the booing. Apparently the media thought they were directed at him as well, because SK was asked about it in the post game press conference.
 
03-11-2013 03:47 PM
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