(03-05-2013 11:56 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(03-05-2013 11:08 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-05-2013 08:52 PM)BillEsq Wrote:  

(03-05-2013 08:45 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(03-05-2013 07:43 PM)BillEsq Wrote:  You probably over paid a little but not really... remember 35 million of that 100 million is basically the fees for the c7 for leaving early.

You pay more to leave early only when leaving early damages the conference. That's why West Virginia paid 4 times the exit fee--they left without notice and we had to scramble to replace them. Syracuse and Pitt stayed a reasonable amount of time, paid an extra $2.5M

We leave, Notre Dame leaves, then they have a 10-team conference. They don't need to replace us on the schedule. And the TV deal they have lined up for basketball for next year pays them $10M total. So their damages are basically capped at $10M.

I think you have contractual fees and equitable damages confused. The exit fees are contractual and have nothing to do with any damages caused to the league. WV paid 20 million because it was 10 million to leave with notice and double 20 million to leave without any notice. The basketball only schools were contractually required to pay 5 million in exit fees if they left and if they left in less than two years its double at 10 million. The trick is that if they all left together with 2 year notice they all got out free. Since they are not staying in the league for the required time period the free clause does not apply and they must pay the 5-10 million exit fees.

You could actually argue that the exit fees for the C7 leaving in 2013 was potentially 70 million which would make the whole deal very pro C7...

Yes, I think this is an important point. A large portion of what the C7 is leaving behind could be allocated to what they would have had to pay in exit fees. Plus, there's the opportunity cost of not being able to start the Fox contract last year - it would have been the difference between receiving $30 million from Fox (or $40 million or even over $50 million if you believe the new Blauds article) versus $4,444,444 (the amount that the C7 would have received in total out of the $10 million that ESPN is paying for Big East basketball next year). All-in-all, the C7 didn't really pay that much for the name when taking into account the value of the exit fees and how much they'll be receiving from Fox immediately.

Frank, as a layer, how can you make a case that the C7 "would have had to pay" exit fees without having seen the pre-nup? By all reports it allowed for a split with no exit fees and there was never anything published about a notification time line required for a split. My impression from reading the July 2003 minutes is that they were looking for something that would be accomplished by mutual agreement.

My understanding was that the C7 could split without exit fees provided that they provided 27 months notice. So, there were going to be some type of contractual damages paid by the C7 in order to leave early.

The thing is it seems like we gave up not only 100 million here, but also all claims to the hoops units from the departing schools...
2014 49 units(plus whatever Syr, Pitt, Lou earn this year)
2015 40 units(plus whatever Syr, Pit earn this year, Lou next 2 years)
2016 28 units plus
2017 17 units plus
2018 10 units plus
that's a total of 144 units, worth right now 36 million dollars. If Syr, Pitt, Lou go to tourney and lose rd 1, then Lou does same next year- that's 24 more units or another 6 million dollars. So out of a total 150 million dollars we wind up with 10 million. Even if 50/50 would be 75 million each.

(03-06-2013 12:22 AM)stever20 Wrote:  The thing is it seems like we gave up not only 100 million here, but also all claims to the hoops units from the departing schools...
2014 49 units(plus whatever Syr, Pitt, Lou earn this year)
2015 40 units(plus whatever Syr, Pit earn this year, Lou next 2 years)
2016 28 units plus
2017 17 units plus
2018 10 units plus
that's a total of 144 units, worth right now 36 million dollars. If Syr, Pitt, Lou go to tourney and lose rd 1, then Lou does same next year- that's 24 more units or another 6 million dollars. So out of a total 150 million dollars we wind up with 10 million. Even if 50/50 would be 75 million each.

Right, but once again, the opportunity cost of not starting the Fox contract immediately needs to be taken into account. The C7 were going to get a de minimis amount next year from ESPN versus at least $30 million from Fox. So, that blunts the difference and considering that the C7 then takes the Big East brand name on top of that, I think it's pretty fair. It's not necessarily *cheap*, but it's a fair deal. Anything of real value is going to cost a material amount.

The C7 would have gotten at LEAST 10 million total next year, vs 30 from Fox. So negative 20 there.

but then, the C7 would have probably gotten at least a third of the money so of 150 million, 50 million. So plus 40 million there.

And that's if Syracuse, Pitt, and Louisville lose 1st round. If say all 3 make sweet 16, that takes it up to 160 million dollars with us getting 10.

(03-06-2013 12:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  The C7 would have gotten at LEAST 10 million total next year, vs 30 from Fox. So negative 20 there.

but then, the C7 would have probably gotten at least a third of the money so of 150 million, 50 million. So plus 40 million there.

And that's if Syracuse, Pitt, and Louisville lose 1st round. If say all 3 make sweet 16, that takes it up to 160 million dollars with us getting 10.

No, the whole BBall conference would have gotten 10 mil next year. 10 mil divided by 18 teams.

(03-06-2013 12:44 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(03-06-2013 12:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  The C7 would have gotten at LEAST 10 million total next year, vs 30 from Fox. So negative 20 there.

but then, the C7 would have probably gotten at least a third of the money so of 150 million, 50 million. So plus 40 million there.

And that's if Syracuse, Pitt, and Louisville lose 1st round. If say all 3 make sweet 16, that takes it up to 160 million dollars with us getting 10.

No, the whole BBall conference would have gotten 10 mil next year. 10 mil divided by 18 teams.

They were going to pool with the football money... 25 million, 30% of that would have gone to us. at least 7.5 mil total for us. Plus we would have gotten our share of the hoops money(right now 104 plus what all of us earn this year, likely 30 million dollars with us getting a majority of that- say 20 million dollars. So in BE- we get 27.5 mil, new BE- 30 plus 7.5 37.5 mil. So net -10 million for next year.

(03-06-2013 12:49 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-06-2013 12:44 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(03-06-2013 12:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  The C7 would have gotten at LEAST 10 million total next year, vs 30 from Fox. So negative 20 there.

but then, the C7 would have probably gotten at least a third of the money so of 150 million, 50 million. So plus 40 million there.

And that's if Syracuse, Pitt, and Louisville lose 1st round. If say all 3 make sweet 16, that takes it up to 160 million dollars with us getting 10.

No, the whole BBall conference would have gotten 10 mil next year. 10 mil divided by 18 teams.

They were going to pool with the football money... 25 million, 30% of that would have gone to us. at least 7.5 mil total for us. Plus we would have gotten our share of the hoops money(right now 104 plus what all of us earn this year, likely 30 million dollars with us getting a majority of that- say 20 million dollars. So in BE- we get 27.5 mil, new BE- 30 plus 7.5 37.5 mil. So net -10 million for next year.

For TV? Absolutely not. ESPN was paying $10 million for 18 teams strictly for basketball next season under the new deal. The C7 share of that would have been $3.9 million.

I just can't fathom anyone in the C7 complaining about this deal. It's a classic case of looking a gift horse in the mouth. Just look at the football schools having a complete meltdown over this with new reports of the incoming schools demanding more. The C7 is getting much more positive value out of this. Like I've said, it's not *cheap*, but it's more than fair.

(03-05-2013 11:08 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-05-2013 08:52 PM)BillEsq Wrote:  

(03-05-2013 08:45 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(03-05-2013 07:43 PM)BillEsq Wrote:  You probably over paid a little but not really... remember 35 million of that 100 million is basically the fees for the c7 for leaving early.

You pay more to leave early only when leaving early damages the conference. That's why West Virginia paid 4 times the exit fee--they left without notice and we had to scramble to replace them. Syracuse and Pitt stayed a reasonable amount of time, paid an extra $2.5M

We leave, Notre Dame leaves, then they have a 10-team conference. They don't need to replace us on the schedule. And the TV deal they have lined up for basketball for next year pays them $10M total. So their damages are basically capped at $10M.

I think you have contractual fees and equitable damages confused. The exit fees are contractual and have nothing to do with any damages caused to the league. WV paid 20 million because it was 10 million to leave with notice and double 20 million to leave without any notice. The basketball only schools were contractually required to pay 5 million in exit fees if they left and if they left in less than two years its double at 10 million. The trick is that if they all left together with 2 year notice they all got out free. Since they are not staying in the league for the required time period the free clause does not apply and they must pay the 5-10 million exit fees.

You could actually argue that the exit fees for the C7 leaving in 2013 was potentially 70 million which would make the whole deal very pro C7...

Yes, I think this is an important point. A large portion of what the C7 is leaving behind could be allocated to what they would have had to pay in exit fees. Plus, there's the opportunity cost of not being able to start the Fox contract last year - it would have been the difference between receiving $30 million from Fox (or $40 million or even over $50 million if you believe the new Blauds article) versus $4,444,444 (the amount that the C7 would have received in total out of the $10 million that ESPN is paying for Big East basketball next year). All-in-all, the C7 didn't really pay that much for the name when taking into account the value of the exit fees and how much they'll be receiving from Fox immediately.

Yeah. Once I saw that the 2013 was going to pay a wimpy little 10 million for baskettball I knew the C-7 was gone for 2013. The 30 million from Fox in 2013 would allow them to almost leave for free. Worst case senario, at the very least they would be way ahead of break-even by year 2 of the contract.

(03-06-2013 12:22 AM)stever20 Wrote:  The thing is it seems like we gave up not only 100 million here, but also all claims to the hoops units from the departing schools...
2014 49 units(plus whatever Syr, Pitt, Lou earn this year)
2015 40 units(plus whatever Syr, Pit earn this year, Lou next 2 years)
2016 28 units plus
2017 17 units plus
2018 10 units plus
that's a total of 144 units, worth right now 36 million dollars. If Syr, Pitt, Lou go to tourney and lose rd 1, then Lou does same next year- that's 24 more units or another 6 million dollars. So out of a total 150 million dollars we wind up with 10 million. Even if 50/50 would be 75 million each.

Stever, you're better than this. You've done the math before. The $100M includes the Syracuse etc credits. Doin't make it worse than it is.

(03-05-2013 08:52 PM)BillEsq Wrote:  

(03-05-2013 08:45 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(03-05-2013 07:43 PM)BillEsq Wrote:  You probably over paid a little but not really... remember 35 million of that 100 million is basically the fees for the c7 for leaving early.

You pay more to leave early only when leaving early damages the conference. That's why West Virginia paid 4 times the exit fee--they left without notice and we had to scramble to replace them. Syracuse and Pitt stayed a reasonable amount of time, paid an extra $2.5M

We leave, Notre Dame leaves, then they have a 10-team conference. They don't need to replace us on the schedule. And the TV deal they have lined up for basketball for next year pays them $10M total. So their damages are basically capped at $10M.

I think you have contractual fees and equitable damages confused. The exit fees are contractual and have nothing to do with any damages caused to the league.

The exit fee clauses all say they are liquidated damages and not a penalty. So if there are no damages, a court won't enforce the exit fee. That's the ACC's problem right now with Maryland.

Quote:WV paid 20 million because it was 10 million to leave with notice and double 20 million to leave without any notice.

WVU was $5M to leave with notice--the $10M kicked in when NAvy (or Air Force) joined. The rest was a settlement based on the damage to the league for leaving without notice--they were down to 7 football teams, so there were 7 cancelled football games.

Quote:The basketball only schools were contractually required to pay 5 million in exit fees if they left and if they left in less than two years its double at 10 million.

There's nothing in the bylaws or anything about double to leave early. I think you're taking a misunderstanding of the West Virginia case and drawing incorrect conclusions.

Quote: The trick is that if they all left together with 2 year notice they all got out free. Since they are not staying in the league for the required time period the free clause does not apply and they must pay the 5-10 million exit fees.

What damages can they show from us leaving early instead of leaving in 2014, which I'm sure we have documentation of them conceding in negotiations? The agreement concedes our right to leave without exit fees. And given the conduct of the league up to and since our statement of intentions, I argue that the league has failed in its fiduciary duty to us (they have NO TV contract for us, they made no attempt to get market value for our TV rights for 2013-14). That should void our obligation to stay for a reasonable period.

Quote:You could actually argue that the exit fees for the C7 leaving in 2013 was potentially 70 million which would make the whole deal very pro C7...

You could argue that, but I don't think you'd get very far.

(03-06-2013 12:12 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  My understanding was that the C7 could split without exit fees provided that they provided 27 months notice. So, there were going to be some type of contractual damages paid by the C7 in order to leave early.

Exit fees are always phrased as a liquidated damages clause. So I don't see how they have any damages, so I don't see how we'd end up owing anything for exit fees.

(03-06-2013 12:49 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-06-2013 12:44 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(03-06-2013 12:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  The C7 would have gotten at LEAST 10 million total next year, vs 30 from Fox. So negative 20 there.

but then, the C7 would have probably gotten at least a third of the money so of 150 million, 50 million. So plus 40 million there.

And that's if Syracuse, Pitt, and Louisville lose 1st round. If say all 3 make sweet 16, that takes it up to 160 million dollars with us getting 10.

No, the whole BBall conference would have gotten 10 mil next year. 10 mil divided by 18 teams.

They were going to pool with the football money...

What? Where are you getting that? They've never done that before?

Quote:25 million, 30% of that would have gone to us. at least 7.5 mil total for us. Plus we would have gotten our share of the hoops money(right now 104 plus what all of us earn this year, likely 30 million dollars with us getting a majority of that-

Wait wait wait, why do we get a majority of that? We'd get 7/18ths.

Quote:say 20 million dollars. So in BE- we get 27.5 mil, new BE- 30 plus 7.5 37.5 mil. So net -10 million for next year.

Stever, what are you talking about?

Next year, we'd each get 1/8 of the basketball TV money, and 1/18 of the NCAA tournament credit money for 2013-14. None of the football money, and not a majority of anything.

(03-06-2013 01:02 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-06-2013 12:49 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-06-2013 12:44 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(03-06-2013 12:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  The C7 would have gotten at LEAST 10 million total next year, vs 30 from Fox. So negative 20 there.

but then, the C7 would have probably gotten at least a third of the money so of 150 million, 50 million. So plus 40 million there.

And that's if Syracuse, Pitt, and Louisville lose 1st round. If say all 3 make sweet 16, that takes it up to 160 million dollars with us getting 10.

No, the whole BBall conference would have gotten 10 mil next year. 10 mil divided by 18 teams.

They were going to pool with the football money... 25 million, 30% of that would have gone to us. at least 7.5 mil total for us. Plus we would have gotten our share of the hoops money(right now 104 plus what all of us earn this year, likely 30 million dollars with us getting a majority of that- say 20 million dollars. So in BE- we get 27.5 mil, new BE- 30 plus 7.5 37.5 mil. So net -10 million for next year.

For TV? Absolutely not. ESPN was paying $10 million for 18 teams strictly for basketball next season under the new deal. The C7 share of that would have been $3.9 million.

I just can't fathom anyone in the C7 complaining about this deal. It's a classic case of looking a gift horse in the mouth. Just look at the football schools having a complete meltdown over this with new reports of the incoming schools demanding more. The C7 is getting much more positive value out of this. Like I've said, it's not *cheap*, but it's more than fair.

The meltdown isn't coming from UConn, Cincy or USF. The meltdown is coming from the incoming schools who are getting NOTHING.

I'm not complaining, much. I just think we got squeezed. We got $10, we were asking for $35 they offered $10-15.

(03-06-2013 06:45 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(03-06-2013 12:12 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  My understanding was that the C7 could split without exit fees provided that they provided 27 months notice. So, there were going to be some type of contractual damages paid by the C7 in order to leave early.

Exit fees are always phrased as a liquidated damages clause. So I don't see how they have any damages, so I don't see how we'd end up owing anything for exit fees.

John, call the exit fees what ever you want, but they are still valid. In the NCAA less that one years notice is short notice for scheduling period, especially in colleges sports when a lot of deals are multi year deals. Plus the BE have a very solid argument in the loss of value to the media contract both for the 1 year and 2 year plans. They can also argue that the fact that the C7 were leaving lowered any potential bids for tv deals. They also have to fill out all the non revenue sports leagues which costs money.. you can go on and on for potential damages some more real and some more imagined. Yes you can argue about them and pay attorneys to fight about them. You might even win after a lengthy court battle. Most likely you will eliminate some of the more imagined damages... mitigate some of the arguable damages and pay the brunt of the more obvious damages. Which will probably come out to about a few million a team. Now you got to add the attorney fees, court costs, and time spent wasted fighting over them. So... a 35 million split isn't so bad.

Think about it if you argued this out in court. the BE would have claimed max or about 70 million in damages... the C7 would have argued for about 10 million at most. The court would have ordered mediation and the odds are you would have agreed to a number around 35 million anyways. The C7 were wise to just cut bait and deal with that number to begin with rather that to waste time and energy arguing over every kind of perceived damage that the BEFBS could come up with.

(03-06-2013 12:22 AM)stever20 Wrote:  The thing is it seems like we gave up not only 100 million here, but also all claims to the hoops units from the departing schools...
2014 49 units(plus whatever Syr, Pitt, Lou earn this year)
2015 40 units(plus whatever Syr, Pit earn this year, Lou next 2 years)
2016 28 units plus
2017 17 units plus
2018 10 units plus
that's a total of 144 units, worth right now 36 million dollars. If Syr, Pitt, Lou go to tourney and lose rd 1, then Lou does same next year- that's 24 more units or another 6 million dollars. So out of a total 150 million dollars we wind up with 10 million. Even if 50/50 would be 75 million each.

Just an FYI, here are the remaining units per my count (each unti was given credit over a six year period, but I did not count credits prior to 2008 that were still being paid out after 2008.

(03-06-2013 10:41 AM)BillEsq Wrote:  Plus the BE have a very solid argument in the loss of value to the media contract both for the 1 year and 2 year plans. They can also argue that the fact that the C7 were leaving lowered any potential bids for tv deals.

This is the big key. By leaving, the C7 removed Fox from the bidding process. That did kill their TV deal, because they went from three bidders to one (ESPN no longer had to bid with only one other bidder since they had the right to match).

(03-06-2013 11:34 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(03-06-2013 12:22 AM)stever20 Wrote:  The thing is it seems like we gave up not only 100 million here, but also all claims to the hoops units from the departing schools...
2014 49 units(plus whatever Syr, Pitt, Lou earn this year)
2015 40 units(plus whatever Syr, Pit earn this year, Lou next 2 years)
2016 28 units plus
2017 17 units plus
2018 10 units plus
that's a total of 144 units, worth right now 36 million dollars. If Syr, Pitt, Lou go to tourney and lose rd 1, then Lou does same next year- that's 24 more units or another 6 million dollars. So out of a total 150 million dollars we wind up with 10 million. Even if 50/50 would be 75 million each.

Just an FYI, here are the remaining units per my count (each unti was given credit over a six year period, but I did not count credits prior to 2008 that were still being paid out after 2008.

Code:

Year    n.BE    Value    Frm    Value    C7    Value    Total    Value
2008    0    $0    0    $0    0    $0    0    $0
2009    1    $225,000    11    $2,475,000    7    $1,575,000    19    $4,275,000
2010    6    $1,350,000    23    $5,175,000    14    $3,150,000    43    $9,675,000
2011    6    $1,350,000    35    $7,875,000    18    $4,050,000    59    $13,275,000
2012    14    $4,340,000    43    $13,330,000    24    $7,440,000    81    $25,110,000
2013    22    $6,820,000    54    $16,740,000    29    $8,990,000    105    $32,550,000
2014    22    $6,820,000    54    $16,740,000    29    $8,990,000    105    $32,550,000
2015    21    $6,510,000    43    $13,330,000    22    $6,820,000    86    $26,660,000
2016    16    $4,960,000    31    $9,610,000    15    $4,650,000    62    $19,220,000
2017    16    $4,960,000    19    $5,890,000    11    $3,410,000    46    $14,260,000
2018    8    $2,480,000    11    $3,410,000    5    $1,550,000    24    $7,440,000
Total    132    $39,815,000    324    $94,575,000    174    $50,625,000    630    $185,015,000
                                
Due after 2014    83    $25,730,000    158    $48,980,000    82    $25,420,000

(03-06-2013 10:41 AM)BillEsq Wrote:  Plus the BE have a very solid argument in the loss of value to the media contract both for the 1 year and 2 year plans. They can also argue that the fact that the C7 were leaving lowered any potential bids for tv deals.

This is the big key. By leaving, the C7 removed Fox from the bidding process. That did kill their TV deal, because they went from three bidders to one (ESPN no longer had to bid with only one other bidder since they had the right to match).

The C-7 leaving didn't remove Fox from the equation. I'm pretty sure Aresco bundling basketball with football, and demanding that their football be on basic cable did that.

The C7 leaving certasinly removed Fox from the equation. If the C7 ha dnot left, Fox would have been bidding on the Big East. The probably only wanted the basketball, but they wanted and needed it, so they would have been bidding on it.

(03-06-2013 01:25 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  The C7 leaving certasinly removed Fox from the equation. If the C7 ha dnot left, Fox would have been bidding on the Big East. The probably only wanted the basketball, but they wanted and needed it, so they would have been bidding on it.

They don't have room on FoxSports1 for Aresco League football. That's why we never heard a peep about Fox negotiating with Aresco.

http://ajerseyguy.com/?p=3104 from just before the ESPN window ended. Aresco's strategy was always to use basketball to leverage football onto basic cable networks.

I understand John. But if the C7 league was not an option, they would have had no choice but to bid on the league to get basketball, and sublicense the football or whatever, but they had no other option to get the basketball league they wanted but to big on the Big East. No matter how you look at it, it removed Fox from the equation.

(03-06-2013 02:48 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I understand John. But if the C7 league was not an option, they would have had no choice but to bid on the league to get basketball, and sublicense the football or whatever, but they had no other option to get the basketball league they wanted but to big on the Big East. No matter how you look at it, it removed Fox from the equation.

OR they could have said screw it and not bid for us at all and went after some other property. The argument could be stated that the FB schools were holding us back from a big Fox contract.