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C7 - nBE separation deal near?
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #61
RE: C7 - nBE separation deal near?
(03-01-2013 09:39 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 09:33 AM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 09:23 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 09:20 AM)S11 Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 09:16 AM)stever20 Wrote:  lol epic fail post. A10 even after the defections BLOWS those 3 away. MVC still solid. A10's tv deal blows those conference to shreds.

CUSA- 1mm per school
A10- 312k per school prior to defections
MAC- 100k per school


So CUSA would make sense for them but the others are lateral moves in terms of pay

It's not even money. Look at how many games from A10 televised compared to the MAC or CUSA.

You are looking at where things are NOW not where they are going to be in another 5 years or so.

Conferences with FBS football have more leverage at the negotiating table. The MAC signed its deal 5 years ago so before the escalation in rights fees. Prior to the new A10 deal that conference wasn't earning anything.

The only thing the A10 deal does is make sure its ahead of the CAA in the conference pecking order which was a legit concern 2 years ago when the CAA tried to steal GW and Richmond following a few years of basketball success.

5 years from now 50 years from now whatever- the MAC is still going to be a mediocre conference. A10 even with the defections blows away the MAC. I mean right now- Akron if they lose in the conference tourney- they are not a lock for the NCAA tourney. Not at all. Can you say that about A10? no way.

And an A-10 without Butler, Xavier, Temple, Dayton, Charlotte and St. Louis probably wouldn't either.
03-01-2013 09:46 AM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #62
RE: C7 - nBE separation deal near?
(03-01-2013 09:39 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 09:33 AM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 09:23 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 09:20 AM)S11 Wrote:  CUSA- 1mm per school
A10- 312k per school prior to defections
MAC- 100k per school


So CUSA would make sense for them but the others are lateral moves in terms of pay
It's not even money. Look at how many games from A10 televised compared to the MAC or CUSA.
You are looking at where things are NOW not where they are going to be in another 5 years or so.

Conferences with FBS football have more leverage at the negotiating table. The MAC signed its deal 5 years ago so before the escalation in rights fees. Prior to the new A10 deal that conference wasn't earning anything.

The only thing the A10 deal does is make sure its ahead of the CAA in the conference pecking order which was a legit concern 2 years ago when the CAA tried to steal GW and Richmond following a few years of basketball success.
5 years from now 50 years from now whatever- the MAC is still going to be a mediocre conference. A10 even with the defections blows away the MAC. I mean right now- Akron if they lose in the conference tourney- they are not a lock for the NCAA tourney. Not at all. Can you say that about A10? no way.
But the MAC will still have all their old rivalries intact, very little travel, and a long history of stability. They haven't scattered willy nilly in the chase for riches. You have to admire that, even if it profits them not...
(This post was last modified: 03-01-2013 10:14 AM by bitcruncher.)
03-01-2013 10:12 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #63
RE: C7 - nBE separation deal near?
(03-01-2013 10:12 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  But the MAC will still have all their old rivalries intact, very little travel, and a long history of stability. They haven't scattered willy nilly in the chase for riches. You have to admire that, even if it profits them not...

Outside the power conferences/elite basketball conferences, there's not a lot of profits for anyone.
03-01-2013 10:31 AM
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Louis Kitton Offline
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Post: #64
RE: C7 - nBE separation deal near?
(03-01-2013 09:44 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 09:39 AM)stever20 Wrote:  5 years from now 50 years from now whatever- the MAC is still going to be a mediocre conference. A10 even with the defections blows away the MAC. I mean right now- Akron if they lose in the conference tourney- they are not a lock for the NCAA tourney. Not at all. Can you say that about A10? no way.

The idea is that the FBS playoff money changes the equation. The worst lower-FBS conference is (IMO) going to get almost the same playoff money as the top lower-FBS conference. (Especially if the MWC is regularly taking the Access Bowl, so the conference only gets half the $$$.) So there's a logic to letting football rot and pumping the money into basketball, where if the MAC could move into the A-10/MWC/MVC tier, they WOULD get more basketball money.

I don't agree with you here at all.

First, the MAC is looking at a 15-20 million level windfall a year as a G5 conference but is currently only ranking in 2.3 million from the NCAA tournament. I think that tournament money will go up after this year because Akron is a Top 25 team capable of winning a few games in the NCAA tourney. The FBS money pie though is a lot larger and the MAC would not be able to have ANY TV deal without FBS football.

Second, the potential of NCAA tourney money for a mid major conference is around the 6-7 million range. Perhaps the MAC could build itself to the level of 2 to 3 bids with large budgets but that is about the maximum the MAC can do from the recruiting perspective.

Third, there are SOME programs in the MAC that have invested in basketball like Ohio and Akron which have split the last 5 NCAA tournament bids from the conference. I'm not sure about Akron but Ohio's basketball budget is larger than VCU's and George Mason. It would rank in the middle tier of the A10. Ohio's 30 million dollar athletic budget would rank near the top of new CUSA as would its FB/BB attendance.

There is a huge gap in understanding the MAC among the conference realignment crew. MAC schools are like rank and file Mountain West schools in terms of enrollment and budget. The problem is attracting the players more than money in basketball at the directional schools.
(This post was last modified: 03-01-2013 11:06 AM by Louis Kitton.)
03-01-2013 11:04 AM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #65
RE: C7 - nBE separation deal near?
The MAC is NOT looking at a 15-20 million windfall as a G5 conference. The total money is like 82 million I believe. I think the number for the MAC is much closer to 10-15 million.... I think top conference/making G5 will get about 30 mil, 2nd about 20, 3rd 15, 4th 12, and 5th 8(that comes to 85- so something sliding down just a smidge).
03-01-2013 11:15 AM
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LostInSpace Offline
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Post: #66
RE: C7 - nBE separation deal near?
(03-01-2013 11:04 AM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  I don't agree with you here at all.

First, the MAC is looking at a 15-20 million level windfall a year as a G5 conference but is currently only ranking in 2.3 million from the NCAA tournament. I think that tournament money will go up after this year because Akron is a Top 25 team capable of winning a few games in the NCAA tourney. The FBS money pie though is a lot larger and the MAC would not be able to have ANY TV deal without FBS football.

Second, the potential of NCAA tourney money for a mid major conference is around the 6-7 million range. Perhaps the MAC could build itself to the level of 2 to 3 bids with large budgets but that is about the maximum the MAC can do from the recruiting perspective.

Third, there are SOME programs in the MAC that have invested in basketball like Ohio and Akron which have split the last 5 NCAA tournament bids from the conference. I'm not sure about Akron but Ohio's basketball budget is larger than VCU's and George Mason. It would rank in the middle tier of the A10. Ohio's 30 million dollar athletic budget would rank near the top of new CUSA as would its FB/BB attendance.

There is a huge gap in understanding the MAC among the conference realignment crew. MAC schools are like rank and file Mountain West schools in terms of enrollment and budget. The problem is attracting the players more than money in basketball at the directional schools.

Every A10 team spent more than $2 million on basketball last year. with multiple remaining members spending $3MM+. Ohio at $3MM is the only MAC member above the $2MM threshold. BTW, VCU spent $3.8MM last year. The MAC hasn't received an at-large bid in this century largely because MAC AD's can't afford to fund FBS football while simultaneously funding basketball at A10 levels. MAC basketball isn't comptetitive with the top tier schools outside the power conferences and that is very unlikely to change no matter how much you may fantasize to the contrary.
(This post was last modified: 03-01-2013 11:30 AM by LostInSpace.)
03-01-2013 11:28 AM
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Louis Kitton Offline
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Post: #67
RE: C7 - nBE separation deal near?
(03-01-2013 11:15 AM)stever20 Wrote:  The MAC is NOT looking at a 15-20 million windfall as a G5 conference. The total money is like 82 million I believe. I think the number for the MAC is much closer to 10-15 million.... I think top conference/making G5 will get about 30 mil, 2nd about 20, 3rd 15, 4th 12, and 5th 8(that comes to 85- so something sliding down just a smidge).

The MAC is going to be looking at the #3 position behind the MW and BE for a while with CUSA/SBC absorbing all the membership losses....

With the B1G upgrading schedules (no more FCS games) to produce a stronger SOS that will help the MAC who has a scheduling agreement with the B1G. Both leagues also share officiating crews for football.
03-01-2013 11:32 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #68
RE: C7 - nBE separation deal near?
(03-01-2013 11:15 AM)stever20 Wrote:  The MAC is NOT looking at a 15-20 million windfall as a G5 conference. The total money is like 82 million I believe. I think the number for the MAC is much closer to 10-15 million.... I think top conference/making G5 will get about 30 mil, 2nd about 20, 3rd 15, 4th 12, and 5th 8(that comes to 85- so something sliding down just a smidge).

I think the distribution is going to be a lot flatter than that. Think like Mitt Romney for a minute. You have Sun Belt, CUSA, MAC, MWC and Aresco. Three "47%ers"--Sun Belt, CUSA and MAC-- can outvote Aresco and the MWC. It won't be a straight majority vote, it will be some kind of a consensus, but the consensus will reflect that 3 of the 5 conferences stink, and one other (MWC) only gets a half-share of the Access Bowl money for the conference.

I'd say something like 70% equal shares, 30% Sagarin/BCS/etc ratings, 20% Access Bowl. So the worst conference gets 14+1=15%, the top conference gets 14+5=19% plus the Access Bowl money. 15% of $80M is $12M, 19% is close to $15M, plus $6-12M for the Access Bowl.
03-01-2013 11:33 AM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #69
RE: C7 - nBE separation deal near?
(03-01-2013 10:31 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 10:12 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  But the MAC will still have all their old rivalries intact, very little travel, and a long history of stability. They haven't scattered willy nilly in the chase for riches. You have to admire that, even if it profits them not...
Outside the power conferences/elite basketball conferences, there's not a lot of profits for anyone.
Pretty much...
03-01-2013 11:35 AM
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Louis Kitton Offline
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RE: C7 - nBE separation deal near?
(03-01-2013 11:28 AM)LostInSpace Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 11:04 AM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  I don't agree with you here at all.

First, the MAC is looking at a 15-20 million level windfall a year as a G5 conference but is currently only ranking in 2.3 million from the NCAA tournament. I think that tournament money will go up after this year because Akron is a Top 25 team capable of winning a few games in the NCAA tourney. The FBS money pie though is a lot larger and the MAC would not be able to have ANY TV deal without FBS football.

Second, the potential of NCAA tourney money for a mid major conference is around the 6-7 million range. Perhaps the MAC could build itself to the level of 2 to 3 bids with large budgets but that is about the maximum the MAC can do from the recruiting perspective.

Third, there are SOME programs in the MAC that have invested in basketball like Ohio and Akron which have split the last 5 NCAA tournament bids from the conference. I'm not sure about Akron but Ohio's basketball budget is larger than VCU's and George Mason. It would rank in the middle tier of the A10. Ohio's 30 million dollar athletic budget would rank near the top of new CUSA as would its FB/BB attendance.

There is a huge gap in understanding the MAC among the conference realignment crew. MAC schools are like rank and file Mountain West schools in terms of enrollment and budget. The problem is attracting the players more than money in basketball at the directional schools.

Every A10 team spent more than $2 million on basketball last year. with multiple remaining members spending $3MM+. Ohio at $3MM is the only MAC member above the $2MM threshold. BTW, VCU spent $3.8MM last year. The MAC hasn't received an at-large bid in this century largely because MAC AD's can't afford to fund FBS football while simultaneously funding basketball at A10 levels. MAC basketball isn't comptetitive with the top tier schools outside the power conferences and that is very unlikely to change no matter how much you may fantasize to the contrary.

Its not a fantasy. MAC schools are being forced by the league office to put more money into basketball.

Before, no matter if a school did anything in basketball or not there was equal revenue sharing. Now that is no longer the case, thus Ohio and Akron are taking home about 50% of the basketball money by themselves. This is going to force the league to buy better coaches, which in turn will help the MAC land extra bids and even more basketball cash.

As an Ohio fan if the choice was between a terminal 2 bid conference like the MVC/A10 but more competition or staying in the MAC where we can pick up an NCAA bid every other year because of budget I'd stay in the MAC. The MAC conference tournament in Cleveland is excellent with finals in the 10-12k range.
03-01-2013 11:38 AM
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Post: #71
RE: C7 - nBE separation deal near?
(03-01-2013 09:04 AM)S11 Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 08:44 AM)gocards#1 Wrote:  This is what happens when you hire a TV executive with no experience in the workings of college sports to run a conference. Remember when all the CUSA schools were giddy about joining because they thought Aresco and his minions would keep everybody together with an $8-$10 million per team TV deal? Now you guys are looking at LESS than $2 million per team after the basketball schools jump ship. Hell even Marinatto did a better job, and he was one of the worst commissioners in the history of college athletics.

Cut Aresco some slack. It's tough to win a modern war with muskets. At some point it's more about the product you sell than the salesman.

Granted, but he's supposedly a TV guy and wasn't able to get a decent enough deal to outbid the MWC for Boise. After Boise and SDSU left the best he could do to replace them was Tulane and ECU, which prompted the basketball schools to leave. Now there's no way in hell Navy's joining, which literally makes Big East football a rebranded CUSA + UConn and Temple. This all happened under his watch.
03-01-2013 12:40 PM
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1845 Bear Offline
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Post: #72
RE: C7 - nBE separation deal near?
(03-01-2013 12:40 PM)gocards#1 Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 09:04 AM)S11 Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 08:44 AM)gocards#1 Wrote:  This is what happens when you hire a TV executive with no experience in the workings of college sports to run a conference. Remember when all the CUSA schools were giddy about joining because they thought Aresco and his minions would keep everybody together with an $8-$10 million per team TV deal? Now you guys are looking at LESS than $2 million per team after the basketball schools jump ship. Hell even Marinatto did a better job, and he was one of the worst commissioners in the history of college athletics.

Cut Aresco some slack. It's tough to win a modern war with muskets. At some point it's more about the product you sell than the salesman.

Granted, but he's supposedly a TV guy and wasn't able to get a decent enough deal to outbid the MWC for Boise. After Boise and SDSU left the best he could do to replace them was Tulane and ECU, which prompted the basketball schools to leave. Now there's no way in hell Navy's joining, which literally makes Big East football a rebranded CUSA + UConn and Temple. This all happened under his watch.

The MWC offered them a deal the BE presidents wouldn't and the average MWC team will make less than the BE if what I have seen ends up being correct. Aresco can reccomend things but at the end of the day the commisioners are merely representatives and can't force schools to act one way or another.

Tulane was either a network call or the presidents adding them over Aresco's objections if I had to guess. ECU made sense.
03-01-2013 01:09 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #73
RE: C7 - nBE separation deal near?
(03-01-2013 01:09 PM)S11 Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 12:40 PM)gocards#1 Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 09:04 AM)S11 Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 08:44 AM)gocards#1 Wrote:  This is what happens when you hire a TV executive with no experience in the workings of college sports to run a conference. Remember when all the CUSA schools were giddy about joining because they thought Aresco and his minions would keep everybody together with an $8-$10 million per team TV deal? Now you guys are looking at LESS than $2 million per team after the basketball schools jump ship. Hell even Marinatto did a better job, and he was one of the worst commissioners in the history of college athletics.

Cut Aresco some slack. It's tough to win a modern war with muskets. At some point it's more about the product you sell than the salesman.

Granted, but he's supposedly a TV guy and wasn't able to get a decent enough deal to outbid the MWC for Boise. After Boise and SDSU left the best he could do to replace them was Tulane and ECU, which prompted the basketball schools to leave. Now there's no way in hell Navy's joining, which literally makes Big East football a rebranded CUSA + UConn and Temple. This all happened under his watch.

The MWC offered them a deal the BE presidents wouldn't and the average MWC team will make less than the BE if what I have seen ends up being correct. Aresco can reccomend things but at the end of the day the commisioners are merely representatives and can't force schools to act one way or another.

Tulane was either a network call or the presidents adding them over Aresco's objections if I had to guess. ECU made sense.

Thats actually the key. Even the rank and file MW teams MIGHT make more than BE teams. They are renegotiating the 12 million dollar base package to include SDSU and a championship game. Then, the MW will still need to sell virtually their entire inventory (minus 10-12 games reserved for CBS-Sports) which is roughly 60 games (including the Boise State home game package). Given the pitiful amount that the conference to be named later recieved--the MW is now truely the LAST shot at FBS football for NBC. They might be a bit more agresssive here--which could allow the MW to surpass the BE earnings. Given the low bar, it wouldnt take all that much.
(This post was last modified: 03-01-2013 03:07 PM by Attackcoog.)
03-01-2013 01:37 PM
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Post: #74
RE: C7 - nBE separation deal near?
(03-01-2013 01:09 PM)S11 Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 12:40 PM)gocards#1 Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 09:04 AM)S11 Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 08:44 AM)gocards#1 Wrote:  This is what happens when you hire a TV executive with no experience in the workings of college sports to run a conference. Remember when all the CUSA schools were giddy about joining because they thought Aresco and his minions would keep everybody together with an $8-$10 million per team TV deal? Now you guys are looking at LESS than $2 million per team after the basketball schools jump ship. Hell even Marinatto did a better job, and he was one of the worst commissioners in the history of college athletics.

Cut Aresco some slack. It's tough to win a modern war with muskets. At some point it's more about the product you sell than the salesman.

Granted, but he's supposedly a TV guy and wasn't able to get a decent enough deal to outbid the MWC for Boise. After Boise and SDSU left the best he could do to replace them was Tulane and ECU, which prompted the basketball schools to leave. Now there's no way in hell Navy's joining, which literally makes Big East football a rebranded CUSA + UConn and Temple. This all happened under his watch.

The MWC offered them a deal the BE presidents wouldn't and the average MWC team will make less than the BE if what I have seen ends up being correct. Aresco can reccomend things but at the end of the day the commisioners are merely representatives and can't force schools to act one way or another.

Tulane was either a network call or the presidents adding them over Aresco's objections if I had to guess. ECU made sense.

According the emails between UCF and Aresco that were made public recently, Tulane was suggested by UCF and Aresco thought it was a great idea. And it may well end up being a great idea, who knows?
03-01-2013 02:09 PM
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Post: #75
RE: C7 - nBE separation deal near?
(03-01-2013 01:09 PM)S11 Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 12:40 PM)gocards#1 Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 09:04 AM)S11 Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 08:44 AM)gocards#1 Wrote:  This is what happens when you hire a TV executive with no experience in the workings of college sports to run a conference. Remember when all the CUSA schools were giddy about joining because they thought Aresco and his minions would keep everybody together with an $8-$10 million per team TV deal? Now you guys are looking at LESS than $2 million per team after the basketball schools jump ship. Hell even Marinatto did a better job, and he was one of the worst commissioners in the history of college athletics.

Cut Aresco some slack. It's tough to win a modern war with muskets. At some point it's more about the product you sell than the salesman.

Granted, but he's supposedly a TV guy and wasn't able to get a decent enough deal to outbid the MWC for Boise. After Boise and SDSU left the best he could do to replace them was Tulane and ECU, which prompted the basketball schools to leave. Now there's no way in hell Navy's joining, which literally makes Big East football a rebranded CUSA + UConn and Temple. This all happened under his watch.

The MWC offered them a deal the BE presidents wouldn't and the average MWC team will make less than the BE if what I have seen ends up being correct. Aresco can reccomend things but at the end of the day the commisioners are merely representatives and can't force schools to act one way or another.

Tulane was either a network call or the presidents adding them over Aresco's objections if I had to guess. ECU made sense.

The bolded part is correct, but the MWC's offer to Boise was relevant only because the projected BE TV money became far less than what Boise believed it to be when they agreed to join the BE. If the BE had a TV deal that would pay Boise $8 million/year, then there would be no offer the MWC could make to match that.
03-01-2013 02:23 PM
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Post: #76
RE: C7 - nBE separation deal near?
(03-01-2013 11:32 AM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 11:15 AM)stever20 Wrote:  The MAC is NOT looking at a 15-20 million windfall as a G5 conference. The total money is like 82 million I believe. I think the number for the MAC is much closer to 10-15 million.... I think top conference/making G5 will get about 30 mil, 2nd about 20, 3rd 15, 4th 12, and 5th 8(that comes to 85- so something sliding down just a smidge).

The MAC is going to be looking at the #3 position behind the MW and BE for a while with CUSA/SBC absorbing all the membership losses....

With the B1G upgrading schedules (no more FCS games) to produce a stronger SOS that will help the MAC who has a scheduling agreement with the B1G. Both leagues also share officiating crews for football.

NIU's Orange Bowl berth will provide all MAC members a nice little bonus check too
03-01-2013 02:26 PM
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Post: #77
RE: C7 - nBE separation deal near?
The link in this post is no longer working but it has an excerpt that details the 50% rule.

http://csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=110935

I also found this link but it is a little older.

http://www.science.smith.edu/exer_sci/ES...lan.html#5
03-01-2013 05:25 PM
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Post: #78
RE: C7 - nBE separation deal near?
(03-01-2013 05:25 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  The link in this post is no longer working but it has an excerpt that details the 50% rule.

http://csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=110935

I also found this link but it is a little older.

http://www.science.smith.edu/exer_sci/ES...lan.html#5

The conference rules have been changed significantly since 2007. Don't know if the basketball distribution rules changed with them, but its a strong possibility.
03-01-2013 09:31 PM
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