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The Cronin Extremists
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OneUChoopsfan Away
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Post: #61
RE: The Cronin Extremists
(02-27-2013 12:20 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 12:06 PM)cinbinsportsfan Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 11:42 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 11:35 AM)RealDeal Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 11:30 AM)cinbinsportsfan Wrote:  Sure the longterm success of UC football will come from locking down the best of the best in the 513 area but for basketball it makes sense for Mick to target the AAU programs in and around the major cities on the Eastern seaboard.

Part of me worries that with the conference shifting away from the east coast that we may not be able to recruit the area as well as we have recently. Once the Catholic schools leave we really only have UConn and Temple on the east coast.

Most kids want to play where their parents can watch them. East coast parents have, in the past, at least had plenty of away games within easy reach. This may not be the case in the future. All the more reason to build a solid foundation in OH-KY-IN, and use contacts to programs out of the area to bring in a star when we can get him, or fill gaps in the roster.

Yea I agree with both of you that being in the Big East, facing East coast teams, and playing in MSG has helped UC's recruiting in those areas. However I worry about abandoning those recruiting grounds because the talent is so rich there, arguably compared to what the Tri-State has to offer year-in and year-out, and because Cronin/Savino have worked so diligently establishing strong relationships out there.

The big missed opportunity was Chane. He would fit perfect with this team.

But, Mark. When Chane committed to UL, weren't people posting that we didn't want him anyway, and that he wasn't all that good?

Chane would have made a great Bearcat, and as you stated, would have fit in perfectly at U C.

What get's me about a portion of our posters, is that they immediately put down any player who rejects us and signs elsewhere, often making comments about money payments. There were money accusations about Chane.

I feel better now.
 
02-27-2013 12:45 PM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #62
RE: The Cronin Extremists
(02-27-2013 12:45 PM)OneUChoopsfan Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 12:20 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 12:06 PM)cinbinsportsfan Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 11:42 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 11:35 AM)RealDeal Wrote:  Part of me worries that with the conference shifting away from the east coast that we may not be able to recruit the area as well as we have recently. Once the Catholic schools leave we really only have UConn and Temple on the east coast.

Most kids want to play where their parents can watch them. East coast parents have, in the past, at least had plenty of away games within easy reach. This may not be the case in the future. All the more reason to build a solid foundation in OH-KY-IN, and use contacts to programs out of the area to bring in a star when we can get him, or fill gaps in the roster.

Yea I agree with both of you that being in the Big East, facing East coast teams, and playing in MSG has helped UC's recruiting in those areas. However I worry about abandoning those recruiting grounds because the talent is so rich there, arguably compared to what the Tri-State has to offer year-in and year-out, and because Cronin/Savino have worked so diligently establishing strong relationships out there.

The big missed opportunity was Chane. He would fit perfect with this team.

But, Mark. When Chane committed to UL, weren't people posting that we didn't want him anyway, and that he wasn't all that good?

Chane would have made a great Bearcat, and as you stated, would have fit in perfectly at U C.

What get's me about a portion of our posters, is that they immediately put down any player who rejects us and signs elsewhere, often making comments about money payments. There were money accusations about Chane.

I feel better now.

I hope not? But it is somewhat universal that if you lose a recruit the fans says he isn't that good etc. Behanan had offers from all of the usual suspects.
 
02-27-2013 12:54 PM
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Post: #63
RE: The Cronin Extremists
(02-27-2013 12:45 PM)OneUChoopsfan Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 12:20 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  The big missed opportunity was Chane. He would fit perfect with this team.

But, Mark. When Chane committed to UL, weren't people posting that we didn't want him anyway, and that he wasn't all that good?

Chane would have made a great Bearcat, and as you stated, would have fit in perfectly at U C.

What get's me about a portion of our posters, is that they immediately put down any player who rejects us and signs elsewhere, often making comments about money payments. There were money accusations about Chane.

I feel better now.

I agree with you both. Chane has been excellent for UL, and thus, he would have been for us. The only issue I ever saw, was his defense as a freshman (Pitino used to really rag on him for that). Of course that would get steadily better.

As for the shenanigans, I recall hearing some things, but I clearly don't know anything first hand. Then Obekpa was lost due to shenanigans. Seems to be how we lose everyone. At least Chris wasn't a scorer, then I'd really be upset about losing him.

Glad Strickland seems to be a big scorer. But, I hope it doesn't turn out to be "Cash - The Sequel" in terms of injury.
 
(This post was last modified: 02-27-2013 01:00 PM by Ring of Black.)
02-27-2013 12:57 PM
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Eastside_J Away
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Post: #64
RE: The Cronin Extremists
(02-27-2013 11:27 AM)levydl Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 11:14 AM)Eastside_J Wrote:  I am sure 2% of the fanbase at most any program wants their HC fired.

Suggesting that this is a sizable, visible, group of people and worthy of attention is simply are ruse designed to provoke a fight.

Think about it:

1. They aren't posting this stuff here.
2. They aren't on BCL
3. They aren't on BCN
4. They aren't on Bearcattalk or any other forum that I am aware of.

There are 100X as many posts, opinions and ideas expressed on these forums daily than come through Lance.

What percentage of UC basketball fans do you think post on one of these message boards?

A far greater percentage than he talks to or that call his show.
 
(This post was last modified: 02-27-2013 02:07 PM by Eastside_J.)
02-27-2013 01:14 PM
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cinbinsportsfan Offline
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Post: #65
RE: The Cronin Extremists
(02-27-2013 12:33 PM)bearcat54 Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 11:30 AM)cinbinsportsfan Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 11:21 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 09:06 AM)bearcat54 Wrote:  
(02-26-2013 10:45 PM)ctipton Wrote:  Crean's players have a higher salary cap.

don't forget that Indiana is now back to getting the best players in the state of Indiana to strongly consider them again. Big difference for Crean than it is with Mick.


And how is failing to recruit Ohio well not Mick's fault? You take your stars from wherever you can find them, but the meat of your roster should come from close to home if you're building a program for long-term success. Mick needs to spend more time scouting the GCL, GMC, and their equivalents in Cols., Cleveland, Indy & Louisville (plus Dayton and Toledo have always produced their share of talent), instead of signing kids from Africa with no moves and no touch.

P.S. A big change in HS basketball from 20-30 years ago is that the suburban and rural schools are producing better talent than they used to. Check out the teams that go to state; they're not all inner-city schools by any means.

I don't necessarily agree with this. Basketball recruiting is lightyears different than football recruiting when it comes to where Cincinnati should target recruits. Sure the longterm success of UC football will come from locking down the best of the best in the 513 area but for basketball it makes sense for Mick to target the AAU programs in and around the major cities on the Eastern seaboard.

a college coach is not guaranteed success in recruiting their home state but as state such as Indiana pretty well guarantees Indiana will be near the top because of extreme loyalty of in state recruits. Indiana is considered the main state college so that comes more into play than the difference between a UC and O$U. Sometimes a kid's loyalty to their home state seems to bring out the best in them. Not too sure that a new york kid gets teary eyed at a UC event.
CINBIN or Ctipton, don't hate on me for not supporting KOCH or DOC. Their stories on sports are more of essays than reporting an event. Many don't like their so called sports writing skills.Basically, their sports reportings are irrevelant to many.

Uh, Dude, I've been as big a Koch/Doc antagonist as anyone. You don't need to preach to me how much they suck.
 
02-27-2013 02:33 PM
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ruffles Offline
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Post: #66
RE: The Cronin Extremists
I am not a Cronin exptremist or want him to not be the coach, however I do question the philosophy he he using to put this team in a position to win. The strength of this team is defense and half-court at that. The defense really doesn't create many offensive transition opportunities but doe s agood job of holding the other team down. The Cats don't press and don't get many transition baskets off rebounds due I think to some things including we don't rebound the ball with big guys that well alowing for back court players leak out.

That being said - Cronin's philosophy leads to a game of offensive execution and which ever team does it the best comes out the winner in a low scoring game. that type of game does not favor this UC team.
 
02-27-2013 04:00 PM
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Post: #67
RE: The Cronin Extremists
(02-27-2013 04:00 PM)ruffles Wrote:  I am not a Cronin exptremist or want him to not be the coach, however I do question the philosophy he he using to put this team in a position to win. The strength of this team is defense and half-court at that. The defense really doesn't create many offensive transition opportunities but doe s agood job of holding the other team down. The Cats don't press and don't get many transition baskets off rebounds due I think to some things including we don't rebound the ball with big guys that well alowing for back court players leak out.

That being said - Cronin's philosophy leads to a game of offensive execution and which ever team does it the best comes out the winner in a low scoring game. that type of game does not favor this UC team.

Free throws. If you're going to be in nail-biters, you've got to make your free throws. I've never seen, not just a team, because it's more than this year's team, but a PROGRAM with as many players who shoot free throws as consistently poorly as Mick's iteration of the Bearcats. It is very annoying.
 
02-27-2013 04:22 PM
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Post: #68
RE: The Cronin Extremists
(02-27-2013 04:22 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 04:00 PM)ruffles Wrote:  I am not a Cronin exptremist or want him to not be the coach, however I do question the philosophy he he using to put this team in a position to win. The strength of this team is defense and half-court at that. The defense really doesn't create many offensive transition opportunities but doe s agood job of holding the other team down. The Cats don't press and don't get many transition baskets off rebounds due I think to some things including we don't rebound the ball with big guys that well alowing for back court players leak out.

That being said - Cronin's philosophy leads to a game of offensive execution and which ever team does it the best comes out the winner in a low scoring game. that type of game does not favor this UC team.

Free throws. If you're going to be in nail-biters, you've got to make your free throws. I've never seen, not just a team, because it's more than this year's team, but a PROGRAM with as many players who shoot free throws as consistently poorly as Mick's iteration of the Bearcats. It is very annoying.

On that point I do agree. We have lost several games at the line over the last several years. And Our team FT percentage has been consistently poor (easily below d1 averages) year after year.

IMO this is something that Mick needs to address. There is really no reason for a team to have a FT average under 68-70%.
 
02-27-2013 05:06 PM
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RE: The Cronin Extremists
Congratulations to everyone in this thread that have ignored Lance Mcalister's attempt to drum up some controversy. Pathetic.
 
02-27-2013 05:14 PM
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Post: #70
RE: The Cronin Extremists
(02-27-2013 05:14 PM)BeerCat Wrote:  Congratulations to everyone in this thread that have ignored Lance Mcalister's attempt to drum up some controversy. Pathetic.

As long as we don't tune in and give him ratings.
 
02-27-2013 05:30 PM
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Post: #71
RE: The Cronin Extremists
(02-27-2013 05:06 PM)Eastside_J Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 04:22 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 04:00 PM)ruffles Wrote:  I am not a Cronin exptremist or want him to not be the coach, however I do question the philosophy he he using to put this team in a position to win. The strength of this team is defense and half-court at that. The defense really doesn't create many offensive transition opportunities but doe s agood job of holding the other team down. The Cats don't press and don't get many transition baskets off rebounds due I think to some things including we don't rebound the ball with big guys that well alowing for back court players leak out.

That being said - Cronin's philosophy leads to a game of offensive execution and which ever team does it the best comes out the winner in a low scoring game. that type of game does not favor this UC team.

Free throws. If you're going to be in nail-biters, you've got to make your free throws. I've never seen, not just a team, because it's more than this year's team, but a PROGRAM with as many players who shoot free throws as consistently poorly as Mick's iteration of the Bearcats. It is very annoying.

On that point I do agree. We have lost several games at the line over the last several years. And Our team FT percentage has been consistently poor (easily below d1 averages) year after year.

IMO this is something that Mick needs to address. There is really no reason for a team to have a FT average under 68-70%.

Bearcats rank 300/345 in D1 free throw %.

P.S. 288/345 in FG%

And 244/284 in 3 Pt. FG % (Not all teams have enough attempts to be ranked).

No moves and no touch makes for empty stands.
 
(This post was last modified: 02-27-2013 06:23 PM by Former Lurker.)
02-27-2013 06:18 PM
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Eastside_J Away
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Post: #72
RE: The Cronin Extremists
(02-27-2013 06:18 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 05:06 PM)Eastside_J Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 04:22 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 04:00 PM)ruffles Wrote:  I am not a Cronin exptremist or want him to not be the coach, however I do question the philosophy he he using to put this team in a position to win. The strength of this team is defense and half-court at that. The defense really doesn't create many offensive transition opportunities but doe s agood job of holding the other team down. The Cats don't press and don't get many transition baskets off rebounds due I think to some things including we don't rebound the ball with big guys that well alowing for back court players leak out.

That being said - Cronin's philosophy leads to a game of offensive execution and which ever team does it the best comes out the winner in a low scoring game. that type of game does not favor this UC team.

Free throws. If you're going to be in nail-biters, you've got to make your free throws. I've never seen, not just a team, because it's more than this year's team, but a PROGRAM with as many players who shoot free throws as consistently poorly as Mick's iteration of the Bearcats. It is very annoying.

On that point I do agree. We have lost several games at the line over the last several years. And Our team FT percentage has been consistently poor (easily below d1 averages) year after year.

IMO this is something that Mick needs to address. There is really no reason for a team to have a FT average under 68-70%.

Bearcats rank 300/345 in D1 free throw %.

P.S. 288/345 in FG%

And 244/284 in 3 Pt. FG % (Not all teams have enough attempts to be ranked).

No moves and no touch makes for empty stands.


Now you are drifting off into nonsense.

If you want great ft and fg shooting watch the better teams from the lesser conferences.

FT's help win games but they aren't' the reason people show up for games and they aren't even a great predictor of how good a team is.

And the games have been packed for quite a while now.
 
02-27-2013 10:49 PM
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Post: #73
RE: The Cronin Extremists
Meh. I in no way want Mick fired.

But it is very disconcerting to see a team, like this year, regress. It's very disconcerting to see either the coaching staff or players, not fix the repeating problems. It's disconcerting to see the same thing game after game with no new strategical attempts to make things better.

And the offensive scheme has sucked since Huggins was here. Wish we saw more backdoor cuts, pick and rolls, legitimate screens..........and simply more guys who can actually make shots.

The defense is and has pretty much been phenominal under Cronin.
 
02-28-2013 08:04 AM
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Post: #74
RE: The Cronin Extremists
The offensive scheme under Huggins was acceptable as long as he had the players to implement it, and he usually did. It would probably be acceptable under Cronin too if he had some better players. It was last year.

But it is getting old. We have been watching this style of offense for many, many years at UC now. And it looks more awful than ever since UC can't make shots and can't make up for it by scoring inside.
 
02-28-2013 09:26 AM
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Post: #75
RE: The Cronin Extremists
(02-27-2013 10:49 PM)Eastside_J Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 06:18 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 05:06 PM)Eastside_J Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 04:22 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 04:00 PM)ruffles Wrote:  I am not a Cronin exptremist or want him to not be the coach, however I do question the philosophy he he using to put this team in a position to win. The strength of this team is defense and half-court at that. The defense really doesn't create many offensive transition opportunities but doe s agood job of holding the other team down. The Cats don't press and don't get many transition baskets off rebounds due I think to some things including we don't rebound the ball with big guys that well alowing for back court players leak out.

That being said - Cronin's philosophy leads to a game of offensive execution and which ever team does it the best comes out the winner in a low scoring game. that type of game does not favor this UC team.

Free throws. If you're going to be in nail-biters, you've got to make your free throws. I've never seen, not just a team, because it's more than this year's team, but a PROGRAM with as many players who shoot free throws as consistently poorly as Mick's iteration of the Bearcats. It is very annoying.

On that point I do agree. We have lost several games at the line over the last several years. And Our team FT percentage has been consistently poor (easily below d1 averages) year after year.

IMO this is something that Mick needs to address. There is really no reason for a team to have a FT average under 68-70%.

Bearcats rank 300/345 in D1 free throw %.

P.S. 288/345 in FG%

And 244/284 in 3 Pt. FG % (Not all teams have enough attempts to be ranked).

No moves and no touch makes for empty stands.


Now you are drifting off into nonsense.

If you want great ft and fg shooting watch the better teams from the lesser conferences.

FT's help win games but they aren't' the reason people show up for games and they aren't even a great predictor of how good a team is.

And the games have been packed for quite a while now.

I beg to differ. The positive correlation between FT% and winning is modest, but real. The correlation between FG%, 3PT% and wins is quite high. Scan the NCAA stats if you don't believe it.

http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/rank...cYear=2013

Take FG% The top three majors are Gonzaga, Indiana, and Michigan. The bottom three are S. Fla., Penn St., and Miss. St.

And 3PT%. The Top 3 majors are Indiana, Duke, and Virginia. The bottom 3 are Penn St., Iowa, and DePaul.

See a pattern here?

Attendance? Has there been a sellout this year? Didn't think so. The 'Nova game didn't even break five figures.

This started out as a thread about firing Mick. I don't want the man fired; we've come too far for that. But there ARE issues with the program, and if somebody steps up and says that Mick's taken it as far as he can, but he can't get it to the next level, I cannot think that it is absurd that he might just be correct. Better would be for Mick to start recruiting better so we could stop having these discussions.
 
(This post was last modified: 02-28-2013 11:01 AM by Former Lurker.)
02-28-2013 10:58 AM
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Post: #76
RE: The Cronin Extremists
(02-28-2013 10:58 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 10:49 PM)Eastside_J Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 06:18 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 05:06 PM)Eastside_J Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 04:22 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  Free throws. If you're going to be in nail-biters, you've got to make your free throws. I've never seen, not just a team, because it's more than this year's team, but a PROGRAM with as many players who shoot free throws as consistently poorly as Mick's iteration of the Bearcats. It is very annoying.

On that point I do agree. We have lost several games at the line over the last several years. And Our team FT percentage has been consistently poor (easily below d1 averages) year after year.

IMO this is something that Mick needs to address. There is really no reason for a team to have a FT average under 68-70%.

Bearcats rank 300/345 in D1 free throw %.

P.S. 288/345 in FG%

And 244/284 in 3 Pt. FG % (Not all teams have enough attempts to be ranked).

No moves and no touch makes for empty stands.


Now you are drifting off into nonsense.

If you want great ft and fg shooting watch the better teams from the lesser conferences.

FT's help win games but they aren't' the reason people show up for games and they aren't even a great predictor of how good a team is.

And the games have been packed for quite a while now.

I beg to differ. The positive correlation between FT% and winning is modest, but real. The correlation between FG%, 3PT% and wins is quite high. Scan the NCAA stats if you don't believe it.

http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/rank...cYear=2013

Take FG% The top three majors are Gonzaga, Indiana, and Michigan. The bottom three are S. Fla., Penn St., and Miss. St.

And 3PT%. The Top 3 majors are Indiana, Duke, and Virginia. The bottom 3 are Penn St., Iowa, and DePaul.

See a pattern here?

Attendance? Has there been a sellout this year? Didn't think so. The 'Nova game didn't even break five figures.

This started out as a thread about firing Mick. I don't want the man fired; we've come too far for that. But there ARE issues with the program, and if somebody steps up and says that Mick's taken it as far as he can, but he can't get it to the next level, I cannot think that it is absurd that he might just be correct. Better would be for Mick to start recruiting better so we could stop having these discussions.

You mean to tell me that teams that put the ball in the bucket tend to win. 04-cheers
 
02-28-2013 04:14 PM
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Post: #77
RE: The Cronin Extremists
I mean doing anything well is going to have a positive correlation to winning basketball games. Quite the revelation.
 
02-28-2013 04:17 PM
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Post: #78
RE: The Cronin Extremists
(02-28-2013 04:17 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  I mean doing anything well is going to have a positive correlation to winning basketball games. Quite the revelation.

I agree those stats don't really tell us much, but it would be interesting to see some regression analysis on which stats correlate most to winning and by how much.
 
(This post was last modified: 02-28-2013 06:09 PM by Bearhawkeye.)
02-28-2013 06:08 PM
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RE: The Cronin Extremists
I've been laughing for a couple of days at a friend of mine's comments directed at me.

My friends have known me as a rabid UC b-ball fan for like the past 25-30 years. They call me every week or so to discuss UC b-ball.

On Tuesday, a good friend of mine since 3rd grade called me as both of us traveled home from work, to discuss UC basketball. He was all glass half-full on me. When I informed him I hadn't even bothered watching the last 2 games out of frustration, he got quiet. Finally he told me he was "disappointed" in me.

I've been laughing ever since. "Disappointed"? I think he wanted me to be my usual fired up, bucket of analysis (I know, haha, but they think I do, unlike you people), can't get enough UC b-ball like I've been most of my life.

I don't know what it is. But apathy has really set in with me. I even find myself posting less on all the message boards I post on such as Reds, Bengals, political, and others. I'm just bored with it all.

I guess old age is setting in. Not sure what it is. But I sure "disappointed" him. LMAO.
 
02-28-2013 06:44 PM
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RE: The Cronin Extremists
(02-28-2013 06:08 PM)Bearhawkeye Wrote:  
(02-28-2013 04:17 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  I mean doing anything well is going to have a positive correlation to winning basketball games. Quite the revelation.

I agree those stats don't really tell us much, but it would be interesting to see some regression analysis on which stats correlate most to winning and by how much.

That would be tremendous and probably deserves its own thread to figure out how it could best be done.

My initial impression is that it might work best to start the study using NBA statistics.

Strength of schedule is such a massive variable in college ball. So great that I think it makes it very tough to make apples to apples stat comparisons. For instance Davidson is the number 1 team last time I looked in FT shooting percentage. They pretty much shoot the lights out all around. And they win. But if they played a Big East schedule and had to face big east defenses, most all those numbers would decrease, as would their winning percentage.

Maybe it is possible that you could take the stats and winning % and then apply a + or - strength of schedule factor and then back test your results against past seasons game/season outcomes.

Someone has to have done this right?
 
03-01-2013 09:15 AM
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