(02-21-2013 02:52 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 10:51 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 10:34 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  I would have a problem of increasing the minimum wage. If I haven't seen a company use tactics to lower employee pay while increasing profits and giving management bonuses.

My example. I worked for a company hauling fuel several years ago now. I got a base pay plus a percentage bonus on the amount of fuel I sold. I also got extra money for each new costumer I signed up as long as they actually bought fuel. Well,needless to say I work my a$$ off for them. And so did every other driver. Well all of this just had to be changed. The company did away with all bonus driven pay and went to a flat rate. It cut my pay in nearly half. That same year the company made record profits and the CEO got a multi-million dollar bonus. I quit.

My point is. Many companies have a open warfare on employees salaries. All the while they are making solid profits. If every employer had a similar pay scale that I once had. Then every employee would have an invested interest in that business.

You quit...as you should have. I expect they rehired employees that were happy to take your job. I hope you landed in a better position. You sound like a hard worker.

In my crazy world people would get paid for their skills....period. The marketplace would seek those as yourself through competition and pay them well because of their value. Government interventionism into the marketplace has totally screwed up any chance of this happening.

You got that right Fo. You live in a crazy world. You certainly don't live in the real world because the real world doesn't work like that.

Whatever. BTW...There are plenty of people NOW that work for companies under this type of paradigm. Unfortunately more work in situations in which they are overpaid for what they do through coercive government mandates. I am guessing you work for the later.

(02-21-2013 02:31 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 10:03 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 09:44 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 09:14 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 08:55 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  that's REALLY tough to live on.

*sigh*

It was never meant to be lived on.

It is, by definition, entry level.

The seventy five cent an hour raise you want to give them is what most functional people get after they've been somewhere 6 months.

Raising it WILL drive the price of everything you buy up.

The guy making $15/hour and barely making ends meet (and who's not getting that raise) is royally screwed.

Some people HAVE to live on it...of course y'all are the same folks that hate food stamps and Obamacare...no respect for the poor

Quit trying to demagogue the issue.

Read this sentence again.

The seventy five cent an hour raise you want to give them is what most functional people get after they've been somewhere 6 months.

That, and raising the minimum wage will not materially benefit them, when factoring the price of everything going up, and in the meantime, you've further impoverished those making just barely above the minimum wage.

Nobody benefits, but it's always worth a few votes to say, "See, they don't care about you and want you to starve!"

That is absolutely NOT true. This goes to show how out of touch you are. Most jobs that pay minimum wage or near minimum wage don't give a raise until 1 year with the company. When they DO give raises it is nowhere near $.75. It is more like $.25 at most.

Minimum wage jobs are what High School kids should be doing. Unfortunately socialist government programs have produced people that are only High School competent and are not even worth minimum wage. Get angry about it if you want...but...it is not the employers you should be angry with. It is the worthless programs that have caused this. Poor ass education and a Welfare state that produces LOSERS are to blame.

(02-20-2013 10:56 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 10:47 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Index it to inflation like it should have been all along. It was raised to $7.25 in 2009, so that is $7.76 in 2013 dollars.

This is the problem. You are proposing treating the minimum wage as more than entry level employment. By indexing it we would be treating it as a living wage. It is not....and was not conceived as such. This is just another in hundreds of great government ideas that has evolved beyond its original scope and now is entirely different. This is government. This is why it grows. This is why it fails. Always has...always will. Only the time line changes. Rubicon...crossed.

I'm not. I'm just keeping the minimum wage constant in real terms. A living wage would probably be closer to $8.50 an hour in most of America anyway, perhaps even higher in urban areas.

Keep in mind that in an inflationary economy, not getting a raise equals a pay CUT in real terms. If we didn't have inflation, most employees would not get raises annually, or if they did, they would likely be smaller.

(02-21-2013 06:37 AM)chargeradio Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 10:56 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 10:47 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Index it to inflation like it should have been all along. It was raised to $7.25 in 2009, so that is $7.76 in 2013 dollars.

This is the problem. You are proposing treating the minimum wage as more than entry level employment. By indexing it we would be treating it as a living wage. It is not....and was not conceived as such. This is just another in hundreds of great government ideas that has evolved beyond its original scope and now is entirely different. This is government. This is why it grows. This is why it fails. Always has...always will. Only the time line changes. Rubicon...crossed.

I'm not. I'm just keeping the minimum wage constant in real terms. A living wage would probably be closer to $8.50 an hour in most of America anyway, perhaps even higher in urban areas.

Keep in mind that in an inflationary economy, not getting a raise equals a pay CUT in real terms. If we didn't have inflation, most employees would not get raises annually, or if they did, they would likely be smaller.

I can tell you now that if the MW is raised that my company will raise its prices accordingly. There is not enough profit margin in many of our products to absorb an increase today. I expect we are not alone.

(02-21-2013 06:34 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Minimum wage jobs are what High School kids should be doing.

Exactly.

(02-21-2013 02:31 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 10:03 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 09:44 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 09:14 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 08:55 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  that's REALLY tough to live on.

*sigh*

It was never meant to be lived on.

It is, by definition, entry level.

The seventy five cent an hour raise you want to give them is what most functional people get after they've been somewhere 6 months.

Raising it WILL drive the price of everything you buy up.

The guy making $15/hour and barely making ends meet (and who's not getting that raise) is royally screwed.

Some people HAVE to live on it...of course y'all are the same folks that hate food stamps and Obamacare...no respect for the poor

Quit trying to demagogue the issue.

Read this sentence again.

The seventy five cent an hour raise you want to give them is what most functional people get after they've been somewhere 6 months.

That, and raising the minimum wage will not materially benefit them, when factoring the price of everything going up, and in the meantime, you've further impoverished those making just barely above the minimum wage.

Nobody benefits, but it's always worth a few votes to say, "See, they don't care about you and want you to starve!"

That is absolutely NOT true. This goes to show how out of touch you are. Most jobs that pay minimum wage or near minimum wage don't give a raise until 1 year with the company. When they DO give raises it is nowhere near $.75. It is more like $.25 at most.

I don't concede that, but for the sake of argument, let's say that's true. Guess what, genius. They're now making ABOVE minimum wage.

(02-21-2013 02:21 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 09:44 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 09:14 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 08:55 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  that's REALLY tough to live on.

*sigh*

It was never meant to be lived on.

It is, by definition, entry level.

The seventy five cent an hour raise you want to give them is what most functional people get after they've been somewhere 6 months.

Raising it WILL drive the price of everything you buy up.

The guy making $15/hour and barely making ends meet (and who's not getting that raise) is royally screwed.

Some people HAVE to live on it...of course y'all are the same folks that hate food stamps and Obamacare...no respect for the poor

That is because outside MAYBE while in school(though with their attitudes, I doubt it) they have never lived in those people's shoes. The only time they meet these people is while they are shopping.

**** you, Robert.

I worked two jobs and fed 4 people while putting myself through college. One of them had me slinging a mop, so spare me your working class hero crap.

You still haven't commented about the guy making barely above minimum wage who isn't getting a raise. What about that guy Robs? Is he in a gated community, too?

Stop the class warfare and THINK.

(02-20-2013 09:44 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  Some people HAVE to live on it...

So then the larger issue is why?

(02-21-2013 06:37 AM)chargeradio Wrote:  I'm not. I'm just keeping the minimum wage constant in real terms. A living wage would probably be closer to $8.50 an hour in most of America anyway, perhaps even higher in urban areas.

Keep in mind that in an inflationary economy, not getting a raise equals a pay CUT in real terms. If we didn't have inflation, most employees would not get raises annually, or if they did, they would likely be smaller.

LOTS of jobs don't have COLA adjustments.... and if $8.50 is a "living wage", and you're arguing for $7.75 based on 2009's number plus inflation, is there evidence that 2009's number is the right starting point?

Given that there is a huge difference in what it takes to "live" for a 16yr old living at home in his first, part-time job... or an 18yr old in his first full-time job, still living at home... or someone inbetween there working full-time, but only for the summer... much less that same 18yr old living on his own, or with a roomate, or with family, or married with two children. How exactly do we reach the conclusion that $8.50 is the appropriate level for ALL of those cases?

There is a solution, but it STARTS with recognizing that a 16yr old living at home with zero skills has a DRAMATICALLY different "need" from a college graduate with a family who is a victim of the economy... and that any "minimum" wage should reflect the former, and not the latter. Once we do that, THEN we can address the "add-ons".

Why do you hate the poor?

I know you're joking smaug, but that is precisely the point.

A high minimum wage is part of what KEEPS them poor.

There needs to be a difference between a job that requires few, if any skills or experience, and one that does. The former represents a job where part of the "benefit" is the experience to take to another job. That shouldn't pay as well as one where that experience is a prerequisite.

If "the people" are going to have to make up the difference for others, then they should have a SMALL amount of control over the situation. What I mean is, we shouldn't be encouraging someone with skills or experience to not try and better themselves (the welfare trap). If all someone has the skills or "drive" to do is a minimum wage job, then we should make them demonstrate "drive" to jump through a few hoops to get the benefits or acquire more skills to live "comfortably". If someone is busting their butt to do a minimum wage job, then the hoops we are asking them to jump through are relatively minor compared to the ones they're already jumping through, plus, there are people who specialize in helping people with REAL needs get help. We shouldn't be tailoring our "baseline" to a 35yr old displaced worker with 3 dependents

This is a microcosm of what is happening in healthcare. It USED to be that there was so much money in healthcare that it didn't matter how inefficient hospitals or doctors were. Now, they're trying to apply six sigma principles to the "art" of healthcare. Why should welfare be any different?

No one could get a minimum wage job anyway probably since the illegal aliens with forged documents have all of them.

(02-21-2013 06:34 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-21-2013 02:31 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 10:03 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 09:44 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 09:14 PM)Smaug Wrote:  *sigh*

It was never meant to be lived on.

It is, by definition, entry level.

The seventy five cent an hour raise you want to give them is what most functional people get after they've been somewhere 6 months.

Raising it WILL drive the price of everything you buy up.

The guy making $15/hour and barely making ends meet (and who's not getting that raise) is royally screwed.

Some people HAVE to live on it...of course y'all are the same folks that hate food stamps and Obamacare...no respect for the poor

Quit trying to demagogue the issue.

Read this sentence again.

The seventy five cent an hour raise you want to give them is what most functional people get after they've been somewhere 6 months.

That, and raising the minimum wage will not materially benefit them, when factoring the price of everything going up, and in the meantime, you've further impoverished those making just barely above the minimum wage.

Nobody benefits, but it's always worth a few votes to say, "See, they don't care about you and want you to starve!"

That is absolutely NOT true. This goes to show how out of touch you are. Most jobs that pay minimum wage or near minimum wage don't give a raise until 1 year with the company. When they DO give raises it is nowhere near $.75. It is more like $.25 at most.

Minimum wage jobs are what High School kids should be doing. Unfortunately socialist government programs have produced people that are only High School competent and are not even worth minimum wage. Get angry about it if you want...but...it is not the employers you should be angry with. It is the worthless programs that have caused this. Poor ass education and a Welfare state that produces LOSERS are to blame.

THat is just stupid. This is nothing different than what has ever happened throughout the history of the country. It has NOTHING to do with "socialism".

(02-22-2013 01:07 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-21-2013 06:34 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-21-2013 02:31 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 10:03 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 09:44 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  Some people HAVE to live on it...of course y'all are the same folks that hate food stamps and Obamacare...no respect for the poor

Quit trying to demagogue the issue.

Read this sentence again.

The seventy five cent an hour raise you want to give them is what most functional people get after they've been somewhere 6 months.

That, and raising the minimum wage will not materially benefit them, when factoring the price of everything going up, and in the meantime, you've further impoverished those making just barely above the minimum wage.

Nobody benefits, but it's always worth a few votes to say, "See, they don't care about you and want you to starve!"

That is absolutely NOT true. This goes to show how out of touch you are. Most jobs that pay minimum wage or near minimum wage don't give a raise until 1 year with the company. When they DO give raises it is nowhere near $.75. It is more like $.25 at most.

Minimum wage jobs are what High School kids should be doing. Unfortunately socialist government programs have produced people that are only High School competent and are not even worth minimum wage. Get angry about it if you want...but...it is not the employers you should be angry with. It is the worthless programs that have caused this. Poor ass education and a Welfare state that produces LOSERS are to blame.

THat is just stupid. This is nothing different than what has ever happened throughout the history of the country. It has NOTHING to do with "socialism".

I may not get into the whole socialism thing but I do agree minimum wage jobs ARE what high school kids should be doing.

Minimum wage should at least encourage people to try to get a better job, but jobs without a minimum wage would also.