(02-09-2013 01:55 PM)ivet Wrote:  Good basketball is a Niche? I think you're over-thinking this whole Catholic thing. People watch and respect the SEC because they have great football. Heck I'm from Northern California and was stationed in Southern Georgia for 3 years, I hated every minute of it especially the "Southern" Mentality but I still watch SEC football because it's great. I was rooting Alabama when they played Notre Dame (because I despise ND).

But you're not watching Big Ten or Big 12 or ACC football because you don't have a connection to those states.

If the SEC has a down cycle, where they're not as good as the Big Ten or XII or PAC, that national viewership will fall off. But their home base will stay strong.

Quote:I'm beginning to think your whole view on this "Catholic" thing is pretty ignorant. Did I read before that your daughter is at Butler? Why did you send her there? Why didn't you send her to Sac State or any other State school in California?

I think it illustrates the dangers of being percieved as a "Catholic conference" vs a generic big city conference. St John's as New York's Catholic basketball team has about 30% of the audience of St John's as New York's basketball team. That's a bad thing.

The anti-VCU folks are going to need to come up with what to say if we leave them out for Dayton, Creighton and Saint Louis, or for Richmond in the same city, and they stay good.

Anyone else, if they GET good, we can at least say "well, they weren't that good when we were looking at invites". If Saint Louis gets left out and goes to the Final Four in 2016, well, who could have imagined that?

If VCU goes to the Final Four in 2016, well, yeah, people could imagine that because it just happened.

(02-09-2013 01:55 PM)ivet Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 01:47 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 01:28 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  no matter what schools are added the new league will be perceived as a Catholic league. Having one non private school wont change that.
Why would that be a problem, yet the "land grant" league of the B1G or the SEC southern state "diploma " mill schools arent?

It's may or may not be good or bad. The question is what niche are you appealing to and is that niche big enough to sustain the league. The SEC appeals to the South. That might almost call it the confederacy conference. It is a niche that they have built off of. The base is plenty large enough to sustain the league. The Big 10 is largely State Flagship schools in the Midwest. The schools largely represent and symbolize their states. Again it is a sustainable niche.

The C-7 currently have the Catholic Basketball league as their niche. Is it sustainable? Don't know that is why I asked. Nothing in the apparent invites will change that image.

Good basketball is a Niche? I think you're over-thinking this whole Catholic thing. People watch and respect the SEC because they have great football. Heck I'm from Northern California and was stationed in Southern Georgia for 3 years, I hated every minute of it especially the "Southern" Mentality but I still watch SEC football because it's great. I was rooting Alabama when they played Notre Dame (because I despise ND).

I'm beginning to think your whole view on this "Catholic" thing is pretty ignorant. Did I read before that your daughter is at Butler? Why did you send her there? Why didn't you send her to Sac State or any other State school in California?

I agree, you will NEVER hear ESPN, Fox or any other main stream media talking head say anything like that and NOT end up on a forced "vacation".

These schools exist, but them playing together is some sort of turn off to people? I don't get that at all.

(02-09-2013 02:02 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 01:55 PM)ivet Wrote:  Good basketball is a Niche? I think you're over-thinking this whole Catholic thing. People watch and respect the SEC because they have great football. Heck I'm from Northern California and was stationed in Southern Georgia for 3 years, I hated every minute of it especially the "Southern" Mentality but I still watch SEC football because it's great. I was rooting Alabama when they played Notre Dame (because I despise ND).

But you're not watching Big Ten or Big 12 or ACC football because you don't have a connection to those states.

If the SEC has a down cycle, where they're not as good as the Big Ten or XII or PAC, that national viewership will fall off. But their home base will stay strong.

Quote:I'm beginning to think your whole view on this "Catholic" thing is pretty ignorant. Did I read before that your daughter is at Butler? Why did you send her there? Why didn't you send her to Sac State or any other State school in California?

I think it illustrates the dangers of being percieved as a "Catholic conference" vs a generic big city conference. St John's as New York's Catholic basketball team has about 30% of the audience of St John's as New York's basketball team. That's a bad thing.

The anti-VCU folks are going to need to come up with what to say if we leave them out for Dayton, Creighton and Saint Louis, or for Richmond in the same city, and they stay good.

Anyone else, if they GET good, we can at least say "well, they weren't that good when we were looking at invites". If Saint Louis gets left out and goes to the Final Four in 2016, well, who could have imagined that?

If VCU goes to the Final Four in 2016, well, yeah, people could imagine that because it just happened.

I do watch B1G football, especially Michigan and Ohio State and I have no connection with them. They just have good football. I watch Notre Dame because they schedule some good games but more importantly watch hoping they lose. I don't watch ACC football because they aren't any good but I watch ACC basketball and I do not have any affiliation with them. I rarely watch any Pac-12 stuff anymore because this side of the country rarely show their games. I finally understand what "East Coast Bias" really means.

It's also a little late to try to dust off our "Catholic" perception, over half of the conference is going to be Catholic. Even if we went to 12 and all 5 were Public State schools, we're still going to be majority Catholic. If you guys are so worried about this "Catholic" perception, why aren't you guys putting up names of Public schools? There's plenty out there.

(02-09-2013 01:55 PM)ivet Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 01:47 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  [quote='gosports1' pid='8944714' dateline='1360434492']
no matter what schools are added the new league will be perceived as a Catholic league. Having one non private school wont change that.
Why would that be a problem, yet the "land grant" league of the B1G or the SEC southern state "diploma " mill schools arent?

It's may or may not be good or bad. The question is what niche are you appealing to and is that niche big enough to sustain the league. The SEC appeals to the South. That might almost call it the confederacy conference. It is a niche that they have built off of. The base is plenty large enough to sustain the league. The Big 10 is largely State Flagship schools in the Midwest. The schools largely represent and symbolize their states. Again it is a sustainable niche.

The C-7 currently have the Catholic Basketball league as their niche. Is it sustainable? Don't know that is why I asked. Nothing in the apparent invites will change that image.

Good basketball is a Niche? I think you're over-thinking this whole Catholic thing. People watch and respect the SEC because they have great football. Heck I'm from Northern California and was stationed in Southern Georgia for 3 years, I hated every minute of it especially the "Southern" Mentality but I still watch SEC football because it's great. I was rooting Alabama when they played Notre Dame (because I despise ND).

I'm beginning to think your whole view on this "Catholic" thing is pretty ignorant. Did I read before that your daughter is at Butler? Why did you send her there? Why didn't you send her to Sac State or any other State school


As long as the basketball is good it really shouldn't matter what the schools religious affiliation of the school. I think with basketball it's not about markets. Its about eyeballs. Also, I really believe that in order for this league to be really successful lies with St Johns putting out a strong team year in and year out.

(02-09-2013 02:02 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 01:55 PM)ivet Wrote:  Good basketball is a Niche? I think you're over-thinking this whole Catholic thing. People watch and respect the SEC because they have great football. Heck I'm from Northern California and was stationed in Southern Georgia for 3 years, I hated every minute of it especially the "Southern" Mentality but I still watch SEC football because it's great. I was rooting Alabama when they played Notre Dame (because I despise ND).

But you're not watching Big Ten or Big 12 or ACC football because you don't have a connection to those states.

If the SEC has a down cycle, where they're not as good as the Big Ten or XII or PAC, that national viewership will fall off. But their home base will stay strong.

Quote:I'm beginning to think your whole view on this "Catholic" thing is pretty ignorant. Did I read before that your daughter is at Butler? Why did you send her there? Why didn't you send her to Sac State or any other State school in California?

I think it illustrates the dangers of being percieved as a "Catholic conference" vs a generic big city conference. St John's as New York's Catholic basketball team has about 30% of the audience of St John's as New York's basketball team. That's a bad thing.

The anti-VCU folks are going to need to come up with what to say if we leave them out for Dayton, Creighton and Saint Louis, or for Richmond in the same city, and they stay good.

Anyone else, if they GET good, we can at least say "well, they weren't that good when we were looking at invites". If Saint Louis gets left out and goes to the Final Four in 2016, well, who could have imagined that?

If VCU goes to the Final Four in 2016, well, yeah, people could imagine that because it just happened.

Im sorry John but if we go to 12 teams we are going to have at LEAST 9 Catholic schools. How are we NOT going to look like a Catholic conference with so many Catholic schools. One public school out of 12 will not change that perception. Is the B1G a land grant conference even with Northwestern in it? Yup.

We talk about the casual fan, but casual fans think St. Louis and Dayton are city schools like Cincy and Memphis.

Oh and Richmond is a better candidate in every aspect except recent win/loss record. Better school, more money, big time donors etc. The recent remarks about how we are looking schools "Committed to basketball" is telling applicants you need to invest in your programs.

Richmond is just as valuable as VCU right now as they struggle to win and VCU is at it's best run of BBall success. What does that tell you about the two programs? If VCU starts losing like Richmond their value falls well below Richmond. If Richmond has half the success that VCU has had their value soars.

VCU doesn't pack the stands like Dayton or Creighton. St. Louis has invested heavily into their program and it is showing the last few seasons. VCU just has one thing going for it. Current success. Thats it.

If we had your thinking, the Big East back in '79 would not have been what it became. You wouldn't have touched schools like Syracuse or UConn. You would have wanted all private schools.

And btw, Richmond is not just as valuable as VCU right now. That's just crazy talk.

I mean lets say this. VCU is still worth 10.5 million dollars hoops units to the CAA.. Richmond is worth to the A10 4.75 million dollars.. That's just in NCAA units.

Will someone please explain to me why they are so SURE VCU will continue to be successful going forward? Seems more than one poster claims if we leave them out AND they do well we'll regret it. What if they fall? Looking at the histories of schools such as seton hall depaul and providence even st johns should show it can happen.

Joining the c7 would help vcu but i dont think they are critical to the success of the c7. The A10 that will likely exist in 2014/15 will be much diffferent than the one we know today. i think VCU will take a hot if its left behind. I also think schools such as SLU will get a boost by joining the c7.
The ONLY question in my mind in deciding future membership, should be "which schools will improve our league, both athletically and academically."
If the answer is vcu than im fine with it, if vcu isnt the answer than im fine with that as well

(02-09-2013 02:30 PM)stever20 Wrote:  If we had your thinking, the Big East back in '79 would not have been what it became. You wouldn't have touched schools like Syracuse or UConn. You would have wanted all private schools.

And btw, Richmond is not just as valuable as VCU right now. That's just crazy talk.

Why are we in this situation now? What happened in 2005? Big East is a great conference right? What happened to BC, Miami, VT, WVU, Syracuse, Pitt, UL, Rutgers, ND? Is this league going to use the old Big East Model again? That has me worried.

(02-09-2013 02:30 PM)stever20 Wrote:  If we had your thinking, the Big East back in '79 would not have been what it became. You wouldn't have touched schools like Syracuse or UConn. You would have wanted all private schools.

And btw, Richmond is not just as valuable as VCU right now. That's just crazy talk.

UConn stunk for the first 10 years in the league as they failed to make the NCAA's through the entire 80's. They built their program off the success of the other teams and being associated with the private schools.

(02-09-2013 02:37 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  Will someone please explain to me why they are so SURE VCU will continue to be successful going forward? Seems more than one poster claims if we leave them out AND they do well we'll regret it. What if they fall? Looking at the histories of schools such as seton hall depaul and providence even st johns should show it can happen.

Joining the c7 would help vcu but i dont think they are critical to the success of the c7. The A10 that will likely exist in 2014/15 will be much diffferent than the one we know today. i think VCU will take a hot if its left behind. I also think schools such as SLU will get a boost by joining the c7.
The ONLY question in my mind in deciding future membership, should be "which schools will improve our league, both athletically and academically."
If the answer is vcu than im fine with it, if vcu isnt the answer than im fine with that as well

First off the logic that VCU won't be good in 2014-15 because staying in A10- that is completely irrelevant. I could say what happens to SLU if they don't go to the A10. It just doesn't matter.
I'm a lot more sure about a team that has been very good lately being successful in the C7 than teams that in their current situations have been mediocre or bad. The logic is we'll sprinkle some C7 pixie dust on those teams and they're going to turn good.

(02-09-2013 02:30 PM)stever20 Wrote:  If we had your thinking, the Big East back in '79 would not have been what it became. You wouldn't have touched schools like Syracuse or UConn. You would have wanted all private schools.

And btw, Richmond is not just as valuable as VCU right now. That's just crazy talk.

In 1979 you would have been dead set AGAINST UConn. They had no success to speak of and no history of good BBall. You would have pushed for someone else over them for sure.

(02-09-2013 02:45 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 02:37 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  Will someone please explain to me why they are so SURE VCU will continue to be successful going forward? Seems more than one poster claims if we leave them out AND they do well we'll regret it. What if they fall? Looking at the histories of schools such as seton hall depaul and providence even st johns should show it can happen.

Joining the c7 would help vcu but i dont think they are critical to the success of the c7. The A10 that will likely exist in 2014/15 will be much diffferent than the one we know today. i think VCU will take a hot if its left behind. I also think schools such as SLU will get a boost by joining the c7.
The ONLY question in my mind in deciding future membership, should be "which schools will improve our league, both athletically and academically."
If the answer is vcu than im fine with it, if vcu isnt the answer than im fine with that as well

First off the logic that VCU won't be good in 2014-15 because staying in A10- that is completely irrelevant. I could say what happens to SLU if they don't go to the A10. It just doesn't matter.
I'm a lot more sure about a team that has been very good lately being successful in the C7 than teams that in their current situations have been mediocre or bad. The logic is we'll sprinkle some C7 pixie dust on those teams and they're going to turn good.

Worked for UConn.

(02-09-2013 02:39 PM)ivet Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 02:30 PM)stever20 Wrote:  If we had your thinking, the Big East back in '79 would not have been what it became. You wouldn't have touched schools like Syracuse or UConn. You would have wanted all private schools.

And btw, Richmond is not just as valuable as VCU right now. That's just crazy talk.

Why are we in this situation now? What happened in 2005? Big East is a great conference right? What happened to BC, Miami, VT, WVU, Syracuse, Pitt, UL, Rutgers, ND? Is this league going to use the old Big East Model again? That has me worried.

Those schools left because their priority is FBS football. But what is your point? Is BC a big state public school like VCU? Is Notre DAme? Or are they just as Catholic and private as Marquette or Villanova?

And if by some remote chance Villanova had been approved to move up to Big East football playing in that MLS stadium, would they be with us today or over in the Aresco LEague? Would being Catholic and private have anything to do with the decision?

At this stage of the game it doesn't make a hill of beans worth of difference what we might call the phantom Conference with 7 Catholic schools as organizers. It WILL make a difference when it is time to select the other 3-5 schools to form the rest of the Conference.

I pray the League is not limited to Catholic membership. As such, it would limit the level of greatness it can reach and it will make it almost impossible for the Conference to compete on a level with the Big 6 (or 4, after the Big East and ACC are further gutted).

The only criterion for membership selection (other than large-sized media center, tradition of basketball excellence, great fan support, situated in the eastern half of the U.S., and good facilities) should be a total disinterest in establishing a high-level D-1 football program. If an institution qualifies in all those criteria, who cares if they are Catholic, Protestant, Public, Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim?

(02-09-2013 02:49 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 02:39 PM)ivet Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 02:30 PM)stever20 Wrote:  If we had your thinking, the Big East back in '79 would not have been what it became. You wouldn't have touched schools like Syracuse or UConn. You would have wanted all private schools.

And btw, Richmond is not just as valuable as VCU right now. That's just crazy talk.

Why are we in this situation now? What happened in 2005? Big East is a great conference right? What happened to BC, Miami, VT, WVU, Syracuse, Pitt, UL, Rutgers, ND? Is this league going to use the old Big East Model again? That has me worried.

Those schools left because their priority is FBS football. But what is your point? Is BC a big state public school like VCU? Is Notre DAme? Or are they just as Catholic and private as Marquette or Villanova?

And if by some remote chance Villanova had been approved to move up to Big East football playing in that MLS stadium, would they be with us today or over in the Aresco LEague? Would being Catholic and private have anything to do with the decision?

Well if we are playing the "what if" game then what if Temple voted to drop FB? Are they in the Aresco league? Are they in the new C7 league?

(02-09-2013 03:08 PM)muskienick Wrote:  At this stage of the game it doesn't make a hill of beans difference what we might call the phantom Conference with 7 Catholic schools as organizers. It WILL make a difference when it is time to select the other 3-5 schools to form the rest of the Conference.

I pray the League is not limited to Catholic membership. As such, it would limit the level of greatness it can reach and it will make it almost impossible for the Conference to compete on a level with the Big 6 (or 4, after the Big East and ACC are further gutted).

The only criterion for membership selection (other than large-sized media center, tradition of basketball excellence, great fan support, and good facilities) should be a total disinterest in establishing a high-level D-1 football program. If an institution qualifies in all those criteria, who cares if they are Catholic, Protestant, Public, Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim?

Well it's not all catholic with the addition of Butler and the rise in talk of Richmond.

(02-09-2013 02:49 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 02:39 PM)ivet Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 02:30 PM)stever20 Wrote:  If we had your thinking, the Big East back in '79 would not have been what it became. You wouldn't have touched schools like Syracuse or UConn. You would have wanted all private schools.

And btw, Richmond is not just as valuable as VCU right now. That's just crazy talk.

Why are we in this situation now? What happened in 2005? Big East is a great conference right? What happened to BC, Miami, VT, WVU, Syracuse, Pitt, UL, Rutgers, ND? Is this league going to use the old Big East Model again? That has me worried.

Those schools left because their priority is FBS football. But what is your point? Is BC a big state public school like VCU? Is Notre DAme? Or are they just as Catholic and private as Marquette or Villanova?

And if by some remote chance Villanova had been approved to move up to Big East football playing in that MLS stadium, would they be with us today or over in the Aresco LEague? Would being Catholic and private have anything to do with the decision?

You do realize that VCU is developing a football program right? A few years back the VCU community wanted to field a team, so now they started one (currently play FCS independent). They've even gone as far as getting the city involved. There isn't any college football in Virginia, especially the Central/Northern Virginia area. VT practically owns the entire state (Don't mention UV). Anyways, it's still in their infant years but hey VCU is being proactive about it. If they were smart, they'd see the potential of having a Football program and how it can generate enormous amount of revenue compared to their basketball program.
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http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/city-s...27ccc.html

The Richmond City Council is so interested in looking at the future of City Stadium that it’s backing two scenarios for studies.
With a development group and Virginia Commonwealth University salivating over possible access to the city-owned stadium, the council on Monday approved a pair of study requests for the site.

He suggested that the stadium could be a major asset for high school football games and potentially VCU football if it were managed professionally like the Coliseum and the Richmond CenterStage performing arts center.

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http://www.timesdispatch.com/sports/coll...f6878.html

Virginia Commonwealth athletics director Ed McLaughlin said exploring the addition of football is “far, far away” in the school’s future.

Whether to add football has been a bigger topic at VCU since former President Eugene P. Trani stepped down in 2009. VCU has the second-largest enrollment in the state, and McLaughlin said there are passionate supporters for and against the idea.

“People ask about it every day,” he said.
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Virginia currently is ranked #1 in economic growth and the state is blowing up, a lot of people are moving to the Northern Virginia area and a lot of businesses (Big time businesses). My wife worked for a startup company that had to choose where to be licensed from, she had had to figure out which was easier,Maryland, D.C. or Virginia. She said a lot of companies go with Virginia because it is easier to get approval from that state and they give tax incentives (tax less) than the other two and they also have less red tape to go through.

Anyways VCU has the potential to blow up, they have the support from the community and I actually agree with some of the posters on the Big East board about picking up VCU.

Being Catholic shouldn't be a requirement. The check list should look something like this. Private, basketball first school, in a good market, strong if not large fan support and wants to be a member.

IMPO, VCU would be a mistake. It more closely resembles GaSt, ODU or Charlotte than any of the C7.