(01-24-2013 06:44 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  How often would it be acceptable to play SLU/Dayton?

See, this is why it is hard for me to justify 12 teams. The teams with the most similarities to Dayton and SLU DON'T want to play them more than they have to.

Honestly, I think that says a lot.

(01-24-2013 07:03 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 06:44 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  How often would it be acceptable to play SLU/Dayton?

See, this is why it is hard for me to justify 12 teams. The teams with the most similarities to Dayton and SLU DON'T want to play them more than they have to.

Honestly, I think that says a lot.

Yeah, but Fox will want content for Fox Sports 1 and Fox Sports 2, and probably some for SNY and other pet RSNs. So I've made my peace with it.

A small part of my preference for 10 was that, if they're in your conference, you should play them home-and-home. But an 18 game schedule for 12 teams comes reasonably close, coming out to 2 home and 2 away every three years.

(01-24-2013 07:09 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  Yeah, but Fox will want content for Fox Sports 1 and Fox Sports 2, and probably some for SNY and other pet RSNs. So I've made my peace with it.

A small part of my preference for 10 was that, if they're in your conference, you should play them home-and-home. But an 18 game schedule for 12 teams comes reasonably close, coming out to 2 home and 2 away every three years.

I think the most acceptable thing for the conference will be to set up rivalries. Work with the schools and see who they would like to play twice every year, and then schedule the rest of games based on whatever amount is leftover.

Who do you think would form permanent home-and-home match-ups in this system? My only guesses:

Marquette: Georgetown and Villanova
Xavier: Butler and Dayton

(01-24-2013 08:18 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 07:09 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  Yeah, but Fox will want content for Fox Sports 1 and Fox Sports 2, and probably some for SNY and other pet RSNs. So I've made my peace with it.

A small part of my preference for 10 was that, if they're in your conference, you should play them home-and-home. But an 18 game schedule for 12 teams comes reasonably close, coming out to 2 home and 2 away every three years.

I think the most acceptable thing for the conference will be to set up rivalries. Work with the schools and see who they would like to play twice every year, and then schedule the rest of games based on whatever amount is leftover.

Who do you think would form permanent home-and-home match-ups in this system? My only guesses:

Marquette: Georgetown and Villanova
Xavier: Butler and Dayton

I think Fox will insist on VCU and Saint Louis.
I think the permanent home-and-homes will be geographic.
Marquette, DePaul, Creighton, Saint Louis, Xavier and Butler.
Providence, St John's, Seton Hall, Villanova, Georgetown, VCU.

Plus two more home-and-homes on a rotating basis.

(01-24-2013 03:08 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 12:53 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  I think its still going to be SLU, Creighton, Xavier, Dayton and Butler. Those are the safest picks and secure the stability of the conference, and most of these teams have shared conference allegiances with each other and DePaul and Marquette in the past (a few twice). I think this previous history and knowing each other well will be key.

OK, you want teams that Marquette has history with, and VCU doesn't fit that. That's fine, that's fair, that's totally legitimate.

Just say that. Marquette fans would rather see midwestern teams with long histories of playing against Marquette. That's not so hard, is it?

I'll admit it if you admit the only reason you want VCU in is because of one Final 4.

I do think, in this crazy mess that has become conference realignment, that associating with programs that match yours makes complete sense. I'm not sure there are enough schools w/ quality programs and high upside to choose over VCU and Wichita St if you go to 16 (w/out ND and Gonzaga that is), but at 12 I think its smart.

I'm not talking Drake, Duquesne and Detroit (the Ds!) here.

the more i think about it, the more i think spot 12 should come down to vcu and dayton, with vcu getting the edge. then pair teams up as permanent "rivals" . the other home and home can change on some agreed upon timetable

My pairs (based on geography. not everyone can play georgetown twice a year, sorry)

GEORGETOWN/VCU
ST JOHNS/SETON HALL
VILLANOVA/PROVIDENCE
MARQUETTE/DEPAUL
CREIGHTON/ST LOUIS
XAVIER/BUTLER

(01-24-2013 03:25 PM)MU88 Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 03:08 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 12:53 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  I think its still going to be SLU, Creighton, Xavier, Dayton and Butler. Those are the safest picks and secure the stability of the conference, and most of these teams have shared conference allegiances with each other and DePaul and Marquette in the past (a few twice). I think this previous history and knowing each other well will be key.

OK, you want teams that Marquette has history with, and VCU doesn't fit that. That's fine, that's fair, that's totally legitimate.

Just say that. Marquette fans would rather see midwestern teams with long histories of playing against Marquette. That's not so hard, is it?

As a Marquette fan, I don't think that is true. A majority of MU fans I know are against SLU and Dayton being added to the conference, even if we have a history with both. MU has played Dayton a significant number of times over the past 90 years (although, there is some bad blood over Dayton cancelling a contract to play in Milwaukee a few years ago), but SLU hasn't been a traditional rival. The schools barely played till 1990. Creighton, on the other hand, is a long, long time MU rival. The school has done a wonderful job of growing the program and the school over the past 20 years. I would guess that Creighton and VCU have considerably more support among MU fans. Fans don't want to be stuck in the 1989 MCC again. Further, if we are stuck with Dayton and SLU, I would say MU fans are against divisions. Divisions mean we would be stuck play home-homes with midwest schools, instead of Georgetown, VU, etc. The schools we really want to play.

Its too bad a 9 or 10 team conference seems to have been disregarded. Too many mid-majors will damage the reputation of the conference before it even starts.

Its funny, rumors of who are in the conference depends on where the rumors originate. Its seems like eastern schools are higher on SLU and Dayton, while the midwest schools seem to favor VCU.

Well I don;t think fans are making this decision, and if you look on MUScoop our poll showed a pretty close 50-50 split until VCU fans found out and started flooding the thread.

That being said, I do wish 10 teams was a more likely option. Xavier, Butler and Creighton would be a perfect add. Then see what happens over the next 3-5 yrs.

Also disagree on your east-west different opinion. Seems the GTown board is very high on VCU. It's really a mix and whatever groups happens to be the loudest.

I do want SLU though, they have an excellent athletic program, especially soccer, that will be needed in this new league. I'm more willing to give up Dayton, though I can;t argue any fanbase deserves in more than them....and having fanbases that REALLY care will be important in keeping this league relevant!

(01-24-2013 03:38 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 03:25 PM)MU88 Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 03:08 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 12:53 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  I think its still going to be SLU, Creighton, Xavier, Dayton and Butler. Those are the safest picks and secure the stability of the conference, and most of these teams have shared conference allegiances with each other and DePaul and Marquette in the past (a few twice). I think this previous history and knowing each other well will be key.

OK, you want teams that Marquette has history with, and VCU doesn't fit that. That's fine, that's fair, that's totally legitimate.

Just say that. Marquette fans would rather see midwestern teams with long histories of playing against Marquette. That's not so hard, is it?

As a Marquette fan, I don't think that is true. A majority of MU fans I know are against SLU and Dayton being added to the conference, even if we have a history with both. MU has played Dayton a significant number of times over the past 90 years (although, there is some bad blood over Dayton cancelling a contract to play in Milwaukee a few years ago), but SLU hasn't been a traditional rival. The schools barely played till 1990. Creighton, on the other hand, is a long, long time MU rival. The school has done a wonderful job of growing the program and the school over the past 20 years. I would guess that Creighton and VCU have considerably more support among MU fans. Fans don't want to be stuck in the 1989 MCC again. Further, if we are stuck with Dayton and SLU, I would say MU fans are against divisions. Divisions mean we would be stuck play home-homes with midwest schools, instead of Georgetown, VU, etc. The schools we really want to play.

Its too bad a 9 or 10 team conference seems to have been disregarded. Too many mid-majors will damage the reputation of the conference before it even starts.

Its funny, rumors of who are in the conference depends on where the rumors originate. Its seems like eastern schools are higher on SLU and Dayton, while the midwest schools seem to favor VCU.

That was directly for Aughanure, who's argued vociferously against VCU using criteria that DAyton, Creighton and SLU don't meet either.

What criteria was that? Cause I think I must have miscommunicated that.

My reasons are: Better arenas, better facilities, better academics, better institutional fit, better markets, better history (pardon SLU), better resources (esp SLU), and better long-term upside (last one is IMO).

If we're going to 16, I would be much more in favor of adding Wichita st and VCU so we have a public on each division/side of the league.

...also, I appreciate the "vociferously against" - nice word choice.

(01-24-2013 05:01 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 04:49 PM)FriarTuck420 Wrote:  There is one wild card that needs to rear it's ugly head. If the the ACC gets picked apart by other conferences, Notre Damn can back out of their deal before it happens. (TCU, Boise, SDSU) I would like to think that a landing spot would be with like minded universities that you already have a history with would be beneficial.

That's the one I'm hoping for right now. Then Butler, then Xavier, then VCU, then ? Just my hope, dont kill me.

The Catholic 7 can hope that your situation happens, but I think Notre Dame will look to the B1G and then the Big 12 before the Catholic 7.

As long as ND has an "in" into the the championship, they'll keep their football indy. This year was the worst thing that couldve happened to ACC football - their NBC deal is about to come up again and will reaffirm their commitment to Independence. And now they KNOW the C7 will always be there for them.

(01-24-2013 05:10 PM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 04:49 PM)FriarTuck420 Wrote:  There is one wild card that needs to rear it's ugly head. If the the ACC gets picked apart by other conferences, Notre Damn can back out of their deal before it happens. (TCU, Boise, SDSU) I would like to think that a landing spot would be with like minded universities that you already have a history with would be beneficial.

That's the one I'm hoping for right now. Then Butler, then Xavier, then VCU, then ? Just my hope, dont kill me.

I find it highly unlikely that Notre Dame will back out of their ACC deal. They have it as insurance as it seems their days as an independent may be limited.

If they did back out and join the "C7", then it'd eliminate Butler as a candidate.

I don't. If the ACC gets picked a part do you think ND is going to be happy committing to 5 (ESPN is trying to get them to go to 6) crappy ACC games?

The C7 becomes an obvious safety net, and they know they can completely legitimize the conference as "major" if they join. They would basically become THE football team for an entire conference...and you know Notre Dame would loooovvee that.

Not predicting it, but it is certainly a considerable possibility that you can bet is already being discussed inside South Bend.

(01-24-2013 08:33 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 08:18 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 07:09 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  Yeah, but Fox will want content for Fox Sports 1 and Fox Sports 2, and probably some for SNY and other pet RSNs. So I've made my peace with it.

A small part of my preference for 10 was that, if they're in your conference, you should play them home-and-home. But an 18 game schedule for 12 teams comes reasonably close, coming out to 2 home and 2 away every three years.

I think the most acceptable thing for the conference will be to set up rivalries. Work with the schools and see who they would like to play twice every year, and then schedule the rest of games based on whatever amount is leftover.

Who do you think would form permanent home-and-home match-ups in this system? My only guesses:

Marquette: Georgetown and Villanova
Xavier: Butler and Dayton

I think Fox will insist on VCU and Saint Louis.
I think the permanent home-and-homes will be geographic.
Marquette, DePaul, Creighton, Saint Louis, Xavier and Butler.
Providence, St John's, Seton Hall, Villanova, Georgetown, VCU.

Plus two more home-and-homes on a rotating basis.

I would personally feel better about leaving out Dayton than SLU. We have semi-agreement (!!)...though I think thinking Fox will have THE say over who will be added is reaching some. I don't think Fox is going to pull their bid if they don;t get one school they wanted. This is a seller's market and this league will get to define what is being sold.

(01-24-2013 10:11 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 03:08 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 12:53 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  I think its still going to be SLU, Creighton, Xavier, Dayton and Butler. Those are the safest picks and secure the stability of the conference, and most of these teams have shared conference allegiances with each other and DePaul and Marquette in the past (a few twice). I think this previous history and knowing each other well will be key.

OK, you want teams that Marquette has history with, and VCU doesn't fit that. That's fine, that's fair, that's totally legitimate.

Just say that. Marquette fans would rather see midwestern teams with long histories of playing against Marquette. That's not so hard, is it?

I'll admit it if you admit the only reason you want VCU in is because of one Final 4.

VCU wouldn't have gotten a look without the Final Four. But when I looked, it wasn't just one coach, it wasn't just one year. They're not George MAson or UMass under Calipari. They've gone to the NCAAs more in the last ten years than any candidate not named XAvier or Butler. Take away 2011, and they've still won more games in the NCAAs than Creighton, and almost as many as DAyton. 63% all time winning percentage. Without 2011, I don't think they get a look. But they have the Final Four, so they get a look. And their body of work on the court over the last 30 years stacks up against Dayton or Creighton, without the Final Four.

Quote:I do think, in this crazy mess that has become conference realignment, that associating with programs that match yours makes complete sense. I'm not sure there are enough schools w/ quality programs and high upside to choose over VCU and Wichita St if you go to 16 (w/out ND and Gonzaga that is), but at 12 I think its smart.

I'm not talking Drake, Duquesne and Detroit (the Ds!) here.

OK. You don't want large, mediocre (median SAT 1080) public schools.

(01-24-2013 10:49 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 10:11 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 03:08 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 12:53 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  I think its still going to be SLU, Creighton, Xavier, Dayton and Butler. Those are the safest picks and secure the stability of the conference, and most of these teams have shared conference allegiances with each other and DePaul and Marquette in the past (a few twice). I think this previous history and knowing each other well will be key.

OK, you want teams that Marquette has history with, and VCU doesn't fit that. That's fine, that's fair, that's totally legitimate.

Just say that. Marquette fans would rather see midwestern teams with long histories of playing against Marquette. That's not so hard, is it?

I'll admit it if you admit the only reason you want VCU in is because of one Final 4.

VCU wouldn't have gotten a look without the Final Four. But when I looked, it wasn't just one coach, it wasn't just one year. They're not George MAson or UMass under Calipari. They've gone to the NCAAs more in the last ten years than any candidate not named XAvier or Butler. Take away 2011, and they've still won more games in the NCAAs than Creighton, and almost as many as DAyton. 63% all time winning percentage. Without 2011, I don't think they get a look. But they have the Final Four, so they get a look. And their body of work on the court over the last 30 years stacks up against Dayton or Creighton, without the Final Four.

But it is just one final four. And it is just appearances. Yeah, so they had a few good hires that got them to win the CAA enough times. Look, they're quality - but I'm not worried about not taking them either. They're not going to be UConn, and I've just been annoyed that some people just seem to want whatever school is good. Right now. Where I live.

Quote:I do think, in this crazy mess that has become conference realignment, that associating with programs that match yours makes complete sense. I'm not sure there are enough schools w/ quality programs and high upside to choose over VCU and Wichita St if you go to 16 (w/out ND and Gonzaga that is), but at 12 I think its smart.

I'm not talking Drake, Duquesne and Detroit (the Ds!) here.

OK. You don't want large, mediocre (median SAT 1080) public schools.
[/quote]

Not mixed with ALL private, 95% religious, universities. I don't think you remember how well the C7 schools have gotten screwed by the big publics.

You know what JohnBragg?

You win. I'm fine with VCU to get in at #12 (...or Richmond hehe), but it's over Dayton. Not SLU. Dayton will forever be in Xavier's shadow, essentially doubles a market, and SLU has a much better upside.

My only requirement is VCU should be referred to only as the Commonwealth, because that's sounds cooler.

(01-24-2013 10:59 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  I don't think you remember how well the C7 schools have gotten screwed by the big publics.

Miami and BC weren't big public schools, and private school Syracuse would have been out the door 10 years ago if VT hadn't shoehorned into their spot. And Notre Dame chairing the expansion committee didn't do the Big EAst any favors either. Heck, if UConn didn't get the football stadium through the state legislature, they'd be right here with us.

(01-24-2013 10:59 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  Not mixed with ALL private, 95% religious, universities. I don't think you remember how well the C7 schools have gotten screwed by the big publics.

If you think that a VCU or Wichita is equivalent to the football schools in the Big East because they are all public schools, you don't understand those schools. It sounds like you are afraid of VCU ruining your party, but VCU doesn't have any power in this relationship.

What is VCU going to do to Marquette or Georgetown? Go off and find a different dancing partner? Nonsense. They have less options than the other schools in the conference. They can't go to a BCS conference, or really any football conference. And unlike the private schools, they don't have an association with similar universities as a fallback option. So no skipping to a private or religious league.

Basically, what I'm saying is that comparing the situation with VCU to the problems in the Big East is simple ignorance. VCU will not hurt the conference's stability, and is by almost any measure the most accomplished team behind Butler and Xavier. This conference is going to almost immune to realignment regardless of whether it takes VCU or Duquesne. These schools will not have a better option to flee to.

If you just want a Catholic conference that focuses on things like identity and a common footprint, then don't invite VCU. There is no shame in going that route if the C7 choose to. But going down the route will sacrifice basketball, in the short and long term. And honestly, I think it is absolutely inane to base the foundation of an athletics conference on anything but athletics. Things like fit and geography are important, but the most important fit is on the court.

(01-24-2013 11:19 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  And honestly, I think it is absolutely inane to base the foundation of an athletics conference on anything but athletics. Things like fit and geography are important, but the most important fit is on the court.

I think this is one of those things where the very rich and very poor have a different set of choices than the middle class.

If you're the Big Ten or the SEC, you can afford to ignore a West Virginia for a Rutgers or a Missouri (not sure WVU >>> Mizzou, but go with it). They have large, secure enough fanbases that the Big Ten can be irrelevant to casual fans for years, and be just fine. At the other extreme, the Big West isn't losing anything with PAcific going to the WCC. You're not going to make any money anyway, so you might as well go for institutional fit. (I could see, though, in time, geographic fit making a comeback--one of the NY sports channels could fund a Big Apple Conference for chump change by TV standards but good money by MAAC/NEC/Colonial standards.)

But for leagues not at the very top, or not at the broad bottom of the pyramid, that luxury gets pretty expensive.

(01-24-2013 11:19 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 10:59 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  Not mixed with ALL private, 95% religious, universities. I don't think you remember how well the C7 schools have gotten screwed by the big publics.

Basically, what I'm saying is that comparing the situation with VCU to the problems in the Big East is simple ignorance. VCU will not hurt the conference's stability, and is by almost any measure the most accomplished team behind Butler and Xavier.

Nate Silver, ya he's pretty smart, showed us with one measure VCU is not the most accomplished team after B and X, it's Creighton. So ya.

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com...l-schools/

(01-24-2013 10:49 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 10:11 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 03:08 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 12:53 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  I think its still going to be SLU, Creighton, Xavier, Dayton and Butler. Those are the safest picks and secure the stability of the conference, and most of these teams have shared conference allegiances with each other and DePaul and Marquette in the past (a few twice). I think this previous history and knowing each other well will be key.

OK, you want teams that Marquette has history with, and VCU doesn't fit that. That's fine, that's fair, that's totally legitimate.

Just say that. Marquette fans would rather see midwestern teams with long histories of playing against Marquette. That's not so hard, is it?

I'll admit it if you admit the only reason you want VCU in is because of one Final 4.

VCU wouldn't have gotten a look without the Final Four. But when I looked, it wasn't just one coach, it wasn't just one year. They're not George MAson or UMass under Calipari. They've gone to the NCAAs more in the last ten years than any candidate not named XAvier or Butler. Take away 2011, and they've still won more games in the NCAAs than Creighton, and almost as many as DAyton. 63% all time winning percentage. Without 2011, I don't think they get a look. But they have the Final Four, so they get a look. And their body of work on the court over the last 30 years stacks up against Dayton or Creighton, without the Final Four.

Quote:I do think, in this crazy mess that has become conference realignment, that associating with programs that match yours makes complete sense. I'm not sure there are enough schools w/ quality programs and high upside to choose over VCU and Wichita St if you go to 16 (w/out ND and Gonzaga that is), but at 12 I think its smart.

I'm not talking Drake, Duquesne and Detroit (the Ds!) here.

OK. You don't want large, mediocre (median SAT 1080) public schools.

SAT scores are overrated. I tanked on the SATs and had good grades. My sis did just as bad and graduated *** laude and on the deans list every semester but two.

(01-24-2013 06:44 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  How often would it be acceptable to play SLU/Dayton?

As often as GU, PC, VU, SJU and SHU play them.