(01-22-2013 03:20 PM)stever20 Wrote:  to me, the hope for the A10 would be that ESPN doesn't want to lose Butler, Xavier, VCU, etc. to Fox- and they redo their A10 deal- getting the a10 then to do a Boise type situation to get more of the money to the big hitters. Outside of that, there's nothing the A10 can do.

That's alot of faith to put into a school directly tied in to their coaches ability to stay put. Unlike any other Butler moves the needle because of Steven's not the school alone. I know this and I love and respect the Butler program. They and VCU (if they keep their young coaches) are the types of programs in which the original Big East were constructed.

(01-22-2013 03:20 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 02:59 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  But if they C-7 try to prioritize Catholic (Dayton, St. Louis) over better current programs (VCU, Wichita State) they may leave an opening for the A-10 to strike back.

Picking St Louis over Wichita (or Dayton) isn't CAtholic over public, it's bigger market over smaller market. Picking Dayton over Wichita isn't really Catholic over public either, it's picking consistent success over a flash-in-the-pan. Dayton has 16 NCAA appearances and 14 wins, WSU has 11 and 8. That's a serious gap, and it's not like Wichita blows Dayton away lately, you've each been to the dance once in the last five years and laid an egg when you got there, you both won an NIT. And the five years before that, Dayton's in the NCAA's twice to WSU's one Sweet Sixteen.

you can stop saying "you". I am not a Wichita State fan. You asked what I thought would open the door and I told you.

Make the league a CYO league and offer a reduced rate to the incoming schools. Do that and you probably leave an opening for the A-10 to fight back.

(01-22-2013 03:36 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 03:20 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 02:59 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  But if they C-7 try to prioritize Catholic (Dayton, St. Louis) over better current programs (VCU, Wichita State) they may leave an opening for the A-10 to strike back.

Picking St Louis over Wichita (or Dayton) isn't CAtholic over public, it's bigger market over smaller market. Picking Dayton over Wichita isn't really Catholic over public either, it's picking consistent success over a flash-in-the-pan. Dayton has 16 NCAA appearances and 14 wins, WSU has 11 and 8. That's a serious gap, and it's not like Wichita blows Dayton away lately, you've each been to the dance once in the last five years and laid an egg when you got there, you both won an NIT. And the five years before that, Dayton's in the NCAA's twice to WSU's one Sweet Sixteen.

you can stop saying "you". I am not a Wichita State fan. You asked what I thought would open the door and I told you.

Make the league a CYO league and offer a reduced rate to the incoming schools. Do that and you probably leave an opening for the A-10 to fight back.

I'm pretty sure VCU is enough to put the "CYO League" to bed, and if it isn't, than taking another public school probably won't either. Trying to short the incoming members on the revenue distribution WOULD give the A-10 (or even the Aresco LEague, if they get creative) something to work with.

Well seeing on how all of the Midwestern members of the A10 will be gobbled up by the C7 I highly doubt that WSU will join the A10. That would mean its a lot less likely that the A10 can "fight back".

You can't compare this to Boise. The big east was not offering over 7x's what the MWC was paying them. Who do you think the fan base rather play? GTown or George Washington? St. John's in MSG or Fordham in a small gym? Villanova or St. Joe's?

(01-22-2013 03:39 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 03:36 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 03:20 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 02:59 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  But if they C-7 try to prioritize Catholic (Dayton, St. Louis) over better current programs (VCU, Wichita State) they may leave an opening for the A-10 to strike back.

Picking St Louis over Wichita (or Dayton) isn't CAtholic over public, it's bigger market over smaller market. Picking Dayton over Wichita isn't really Catholic over public either, it's picking consistent success over a flash-in-the-pan. Dayton has 16 NCAA appearances and 14 wins, WSU has 11 and 8. That's a serious gap, and it's not like Wichita blows Dayton away lately, you've each been to the dance once in the last five years and laid an egg when you got there, you both won an NIT. And the five years before that, Dayton's in the NCAA's twice to WSU's one Sweet Sixteen.

you can stop saying "you". I am not a Wichita State fan. You asked what I thought would open the door and I told you.

Make the league a CYO league and offer a reduced rate to the incoming schools. Do that and you probably leave an opening for the A-10 to fight back.

I'm pretty sure VCU is enough to put the "CYO League" to bed, and if it isn't, than taking another public school probably won't either. Trying to short the incoming members on the revenue distribution WOULD give the A-10 (or even the Aresco LEague, if they get creative) something to work with.

I don't think Xavier shares the same sense of entitlement that Title is displaying. Where this comes from, I don't know. Maybe this topic should be directed at an A-10 Board? I know Xavier fans are very excited at the chance to leave the A-10 and join the C7. It's clearly a step up.

(01-22-2013 03:57 PM)Xumuskie1994 Wrote:  I don't think Xavier shares the same sense of entitlement that Title is displaying. Where this comes from, I don't know. Maybe this topic should be directed at an A-10 Board? I know Xavier fans are very excited at the chance to leave the A-10 and join the C7. It's clearly a step up.

I will second this. I think most, if not all, Xavier fans are ecstatic about joining the new conference.

Clearly a step up from the Atlantic 10.

(01-22-2013 03:57 PM)Xumuskie1994 Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 03:39 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 03:36 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 03:20 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 02:59 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  But if they C-7 try to prioritize Catholic (Dayton, St. Louis) over better current programs (VCU, Wichita State) they may leave an opening for the A-10 to strike back.

Picking St Louis over Wichita (or Dayton) isn't CAtholic over public, it's bigger market over smaller market. Picking Dayton over Wichita isn't really Catholic over public either, it's picking consistent success over a flash-in-the-pan. Dayton has 16 NCAA appearances and 14 wins, WSU has 11 and 8. That's a serious gap, and it's not like Wichita blows Dayton away lately, you've each been to the dance once in the last five years and laid an egg when you got there, you both won an NIT. And the five years before that, Dayton's in the NCAA's twice to WSU's one Sweet Sixteen.

you can stop saying "you". I am not a Wichita State fan. You asked what I thought would open the door and I told you.

Make the league a CYO league and offer a reduced rate to the incoming schools. Do that and you probably leave an opening for the A-10 to fight back.

I'm pretty sure VCU is enough to put the "CYO League" to bed, and if it isn't, than taking another public school probably won't either. Trying to short the incoming members on the revenue distribution WOULD give the A-10 (or even the Aresco LEague, if they get creative) something to work with.

I don't think Xavier shares the same sense of entitlement that Title is displaying. Where this comes from, I don't know. Maybe this topic should be directed at an A-10 Board? I know Xavier fans are very excited at the chance to leave the A-10 and join the C7. It's clearly a step up.

I don't think he realizes that everyone else will go without them.

(01-22-2013 03:39 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 03:36 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 03:20 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 02:59 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  But if they C-7 try to prioritize Catholic (Dayton, St. Louis) over better current programs (VCU, Wichita State) they may leave an opening for the A-10 to strike back.

Picking St Louis over Wichita (or Dayton) isn't CAtholic over public, it's bigger market over smaller market. Picking Dayton over Wichita isn't really Catholic over public either, it's picking consistent success over a flash-in-the-pan. Dayton has 16 NCAA appearances and 14 wins, WSU has 11 and 8. That's a serious gap, and it's not like Wichita blows Dayton away lately, you've each been to the dance once in the last five years and laid an egg when you got there, you both won an NIT. And the five years before that, Dayton's in the NCAA's twice to WSU's one Sweet Sixteen.

you can stop saying "you". I am not a Wichita State fan. You asked what I thought would open the door and I told you.

Make the league a CYO league and offer a reduced rate to the incoming schools. Do that and you probably leave an opening for the A-10 to fight back.

I'm pretty sure VCU is enough to put the "CYO League" to bed, and if it isn't, than taking another public school probably won't either. Trying to short the incoming members on the revenue distribution WOULD give the A-10 (or even the Aresco LEague, if they get creative) something to work with.

Yeah, it's not so much a "CYO league" label that they're concerned about, but rather giving off the perception of being "midmajor". I respect Wichita State, but outside of MVC land, it is perceived as a quintessential midmajor. You can argue that Dayton and SLU haven't had the same accomplishments, but they are perceived to less midmajorish than Wichita State. The C7 leaders also certainly aren't adding public schools for the sake of public schools. VCU has an extraordinary postseason resume that it can rely upon (similar to Boise State in football) that Wichita State can't. That extraordinary resume is the only reason why VCU is getting substantial consideration right now (and it's likely coming more from the TV people as opposed to the school administrators). Otherwise, the C7 leaders would be more than happy to have an all-private league and they probably wish Butler was a Catholic school in a perfect world.

Anyway, I just don't understand the argument that the C7 is somehow making itself look less like a midmajor league by taking Wichita State compared to SLU or Dayton. It's like saying that the Big Ten ought to start adding more private schools beyond Northwestern so that it's not perceived too much as a league that's filled with large public universities. That argument doesn't compute anywhere in the realm of normal sports fans (and to be clear, we're not normal sports fans on this board). Sure, adding UConn is a big move if you're looking at the C7 adding public schools, but Wichita State doesn't move the needle nationally at all.

(01-22-2013 04:06 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Yeah, it's not so much a "CYO league" label that they're concerned about, but rather giving off the perception of being "midmajor". I respect Wichita State, but outside of MVC land, it is perceived as a quintessential midmajor. You can argue that Dayton and SLU haven't had the same accomplishments, but they are perceived to less midmajorish than Wichita State. The C7 leaders also certainly aren't adding public schools for the sake of public schools. VCU has an extraordinary postseason resume that it can rely upon (similar to Boise State in football) that Wichita State can't. That extraordinary resume is the only reason why VCU is getting substantial consideration right now (and it's likely coming more from the TV people as opposed to the school administrators). Otherwise, the C7 leaders would be more than happy to have an all-private league and they probably wish Butler was a Catholic school in a perfect world.

Anyway, I just don't understand the argument that the C7 is somehow making itself look less like a midmajor league by taking Wichita State compared to SLU or Dayton. It's like saying that the Big Ten ought to start adding more private schools beyond Northwestern so that it's not perceived too much as a league that's filled with large public universities. That argument doesn't compute anywhere in the realm of normal sports fans (and to be clear, we're not normal sports fans on this board). Sure, adding UConn is a big move if you're looking at the C7 adding public schools, but Wichita State doesn't move the needle nationally at all.

Well, neither Dayton or Saint Louis are tournament teams this year and Wichita State is. That is one point in their favor. If they have a lot of success in the postseason this year (and in a year with this little top talent, they could go a fair ways), then the gap grows.

To be honest, one VERY important point is how good a team is right now. Saint Louis is an NIT team that could very easily fall of the edge and be the worst team in the C7 for years to come without Majerus. Dayton is not a post-season team (NIT or CBI) at this point, and would enter the league as a punching bag.

With those two teams, you are adding them and hoping they improve dramatically while playing against stiffer competition. That does not happen very often.

Whereas with Wichita State, you are getting a quality team RIGHT NOW. A team that has 4 straight 25 win seasons, and two straight NCAA appearances. A team with a coach that has improved the team every year. It is much more likely that Wichita State will be good early on in the conference's existence than that Dayton or SLU will be competitive.

You can argue that historically SLU and Dayton are either comparable or better, but history does not mean they will bring a competitive program. The C7 conference would look less mid-major if they earned more bids, and in the foreseeable future (1-3 more years), it is likely Wichita State will earn more bids than Saint Louis or Dayton, regardless of conference alignment.

(01-22-2013 05:05 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 04:06 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Yeah, it's not so much a "CYO league" label that they're concerned about, but rather giving off the perception of being "midmajor". I respect Wichita State, but outside of MVC land, it is perceived as a quintessential midmajor. You can argue that Dayton and SLU haven't had the same accomplishments, but they are perceived to less midmajorish than Wichita State. The C7 leaders also certainly aren't adding public schools for the sake of public schools. VCU has an extraordinary postseason resume that it can rely upon (similar to Boise State in football) that Wichita State can't. That extraordinary resume is the only reason why VCU is getting substantial consideration right now (and it's likely coming more from the TV people as opposed to the school administrators). Otherwise, the C7 leaders would be more than happy to have an all-private league and they probably wish Butler was a Catholic school in a perfect world.

Anyway, I just don't understand the argument that the C7 is somehow making itself look less like a midmajor league by taking Wichita State compared to SLU or Dayton. It's like saying that the Big Ten ought to start adding more private schools beyond Northwestern so that it's not perceived too much as a league that's filled with large public universities. That argument doesn't compute anywhere in the realm of normal sports fans (and to be clear, we're not normal sports fans on this board). Sure, adding UConn is a big move if you're looking at the C7 adding public schools, but Wichita State doesn't move the needle nationally at all.

Well, neither Dayton or Saint Louis are tournament teams this year and Wichita State is. That is one point in their favor. If they have a lot of success in the postseason this year (and in a year with this little top talent, they could go a fair ways), then the gap grows.

To be honest, one VERY important point is how good a team is right now. Saint Louis is an NIT team that could very easily fall of the edge and be the worst team in the C7 for years to come without Majerus. Dayton is not a post-season team (NIT or CBI) at this point, and would enter the league as a punching bag.

With those two teams, you are adding them and hoping they improve dramatically while playing against stiffer competition. That does not happen very often.

Whereas with Wichita State, you are getting a quality team RIGHT NOW. A team that has 4 straight 25 win seasons, and two straight NCAA appearances. A team with a coach that has improved the team every year. It is much more likely that Wichita State will be good early on in the conference's existence than that Dayton or SLU will be competitive.

You can argue that historically SLU and Dayton are either comparable or better, but history does not mean they will bring a competitive program. The C7 conference would look less mid-major if they earned more bids, and in the foreseeable future (1-3 more years), it is likely Wichita State will earn more bids than Saint Louis or Dayton, regardless of conference alignment.

It's easy, St. Louis can get the bid then hire the WSU coach. Some of these schools aren't attractive now but become much more attractive once they join the C7 and bring in 3.5 mil in TV money a year.

(01-22-2013 05:05 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  Well, neither Dayton or Saint Louis are tournament teams this year and Wichita State is. That is one point in their favor. If they have a lot of success in the postseason this year (and in a year with this little top talent, they could go a fair ways), then the gap grows.

To be honest, one VERY important point is how good a team is right now. Saint Louis is an NIT team that could very easily fall of the edge and be the worst team in the C7 for years to come without Majerus. Dayton is not a post-season team (NIT or CBI) at this point, and would enter the league as a punching bag.

With those two teams, you are adding them and hoping they improve dramatically while playing against stiffer competition. That does not happen very often.

Whereas with Wichita State, you are getting a quality team RIGHT NOW. A team that has 4 straight 25 win seasons, and two straight NCAA appearances. A team with a coach that has improved the team every year. It is much more likely that Wichita State will be good early on in the conference's existence than that Dayton or SLU will be competitive.

You can argue that historically SLU and Dayton are either comparable or better, but history does not mean they will bring a competitive program. The C7 conference would look less mid-major if they earned more bids, and in the foreseeable future (1-3 more years), it is likely Wichita State will earn more bids than Saint Louis or Dayton, regardless of conference alignment.

See, I take the exact opposite view (and that's probably a large source of the disconnect). Even Kentucky could end up missing the NCAA Tournament this year, so I see on-the-court success as something that ebbs and flows even among the most elite programs that have limitless amounts of money and fan support. As a result, I put *much* more weight on what a school brings to the table when they're 5-25 as opposed to when they're 25-5. The proper way to look at any expansion candidate is NOT the best case scenario, but rather the worst case scenario. Even if SLU or Dayton don't perform on-the-court, they have markets, history, geography, and institutional fit all on their side with what they bring to the table. Wichita State doesn't fit *any* of those factors. There is pretty much nothing that Wichita State brings to the C7's table outside of the current rankings and recent performance. Even then, that performance falls into the "good" but not "great" category. VCU at least brings a solid market, geography for the eastern portion of the C7, and a "great" on-the-court resume even if they don't fit institutionally. (And to be clear, I'm a very large supporter of taking both SLU and Dayton over VCU. As someone that has seen both the Big Ten model and the Big East model up close, the opportunity to build a league with top-to-bottom institutional fits should be chosen 1000 times out of 1000. However, VCU is still clearly in a category above Wichita State.)

(01-22-2013 05:10 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  It's easy, St. Louis can get the bid then hire the WSU coach. Some of these schools aren't attractive now but become much more attractive once they join the C7 and bring in 3.5 mil in TV money a year.

It is not always that easy ask Providence. Plus he has been at Wichita State for a while.

Look the question was asked what would make Butler chose not to come. We aren't a catholic school like Xavier so that puts us in a slightly different spot. Make the league an all catholic league and it is likely slightly less appealing.

Have another league with VCU and Wichita State and it is slightly more appealing. Would ESPN do something to help the A-10? Who knows? But anyone who thinks a chance is zero hasn't been paying much attention.

Does that mean I don't want to join the C-7? Of course not. I just want what we all want which is a strong league with a major identity. We just disagree on how to get there and possible ramifications of certain actions.

(01-22-2013 05:29 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 05:05 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  Well, neither Dayton or Saint Louis are tournament teams this year and Wichita State is. That is one point in their favor. If they have a lot of success in the postseason this year (and in a year with this little top talent, they could go a fair ways), then the gap grows.

To be honest, one VERY important point is how good a team is right now. Saint Louis is an NIT team that could very easily fall of the edge and be the worst team in the C7 for years to come without Majerus. Dayton is not a post-season team (NIT or CBI) at this point, and would enter the league as a punching bag.

With those two teams, you are adding them and hoping they improve dramatically while playing against stiffer competition. That does not happen very often.

Whereas with Wichita State, you are getting a quality team RIGHT NOW. A team that has 4 straight 25 win seasons, and two straight NCAA appearances. A team with a coach that has improved the team every year. It is much more likely that Wichita State will be good early on in the conference's existence than that Dayton or SLU will be competitive.

You can argue that historically SLU and Dayton are either comparable or better, but history does not mean they will bring a competitive program. The C7 conference would look less mid-major if they earned more bids, and in the foreseeable future (1-3 more years), it is likely Wichita State will earn more bids than Saint Louis or Dayton, regardless of conference alignment.

See, I take the exact opposite view (and that's probably a large source of the disconnect). Even Kentucky could end up missing the NCAA Tournament this year, so I see on-the-court success as something that ebbs and flows even among the most elite programs that have limitless amounts of money and fan support. As a result, I put *much* more weight on what a school brings to the table when they're 5-25 as opposed to when they're 25-5. The proper way to look at any expansion candidate is NOT the best case scenario, but rather the worst case scenario. Even if SLU or Dayton don't perform on-the-court, they have markets, history, geography, and institutional fit all on their side with what they bring to the table. Wichita State doesn't fit *any* of those factors. There is pretty much nothing that Wichita State brings to the C7's table outside of the current rankings and recent performance. Even then, that performance falls into the "good" but not "great" category. VCU at least brings a solid market, geography for the eastern portion of the C7, and a "great" on-the-court resume even if they don't fit institutionally. (And to be clear, I'm a very large supporter of taking both SLU and Dayton over VCU. As someone that has seen both the Big Ten model and the Big East model up close, the opportunity to build a league with top-to-bottom institutional fits should be chosen 1000 times out of 1000. However, VCU is still clearly in a category above Wichita State.)

I understand your point but I completely disagree. It was that reasoning that led the big east to invite Tulane and blow up their league.

I won't argue the merits about Wichita State because you don't want to hear them.

I will say if the Big East follows the path you advocate I fear they will quickly slide to WCC status and ultimately WCC money. We aren't the Big 10 which can afford to add schools for academic fit and market potential. We have to perform in the short term or we will be exposed.

The A-10 isn't screwed.
And the A-10 isn't going to blow up their conference policies and risk alienating further institutions to keep its members from jumping to the C7.

The A-10 IS Rhode Island, Saint Joe's, George Washington, LaSalle, Fordham and others. Those five have no hope of EVER being invited into the C7 because they share the markets of Providence, Nova, Georgetown, Seton Hall and St. John's.

Those five schools are going to continue going forward with the best basketball teams willing to join them. No matter what. They have a strong enough base of teams now to retain their possession as behind The Big East Basketball-Only Schools and ahead of all the non-FBS conferences. Same as before. schools like Richmond, Duquesne, Bona (or even Dayton/VCU) will play for the invite from the C7 down the road. Same as before.

Nothing changes other than who else is in the trench with them trying to win the war for a promotion/carry on the A-10 name.

Schools like George Mason and Siena, who show they are consistently among the best of the other conferences, may get a shot and joining the A-10. And it'll remain the "best of the rest" conference.

(01-22-2013 05:29 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  See, I take the exact opposite view (and that's probably a large source of the disconnect).

I understand the course of that argument, but I think one main supporting argument for my side is that this league is new and the tone will be set in the first few years of the conference's existence. If add a program that is a fit, but doesn't improve the basketball in the league, you set a reputation.

The difference between this and the B1G/Big East is that the B1G started strong and then expanded with schools that fit. They always had the reputation of a strong league, and that doesn't go with a few less strong acquisitions.

If the C7 starts by adding schools with institutional fit, it affects every school in the conference if those schools do not bring the same quality of basketball as a school like VCU (using them because they have a much better chance than Wichita State).

Again, the key is perception. You bring in Saint Louis and Dayton and they go 5-25, as per your example, and it hurts the perception of the entire league, perhaps permanently. Instead of being known as an elite basketball conference, you will be known as the mid-major basketball conference with a lot of Catholic schools.

That is why I would invite only programs that are currently strong and have had recent post-season success (Wichita State is not quite their yet but has a chance this season to change that). SLU and Dayton don't bring that, but Xavier, Butler, Creighton, VCU, and Gonzaga all do.

(01-22-2013 06:35 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 05:29 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 05:05 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  Well, neither Dayton or Saint Louis are tournament teams this year and Wichita State is. That is one point in their favor. If they have a lot of success in the postseason this year (and in a year with this little top talent, they could go a fair ways), then the gap grows.

To be honest, one VERY important point is how good a team is right now. Saint Louis is an NIT team that could very easily fall of the edge and be the worst team in the C7 for years to come without Majerus. Dayton is not a post-season team (NIT or CBI) at this point, and would enter the league as a punching bag.

With those two teams, you are adding them and hoping they improve dramatically while playing against stiffer competition. That does not happen very often.

Whereas with Wichita State, you are getting a quality team RIGHT NOW. A team that has 4 straight 25 win seasons, and two straight NCAA appearances. A team with a coach that has improved the team every year. It is much more likely that Wichita State will be good early on in the conference's existence than that Dayton or SLU will be competitive.

You can argue that historically SLU and Dayton are either comparable or better, but history does not mean they will bring a competitive program. The C7 conference would look less mid-major if they earned more bids, and in the foreseeable future (1-3 more years), it is likely Wichita State will earn more bids than Saint Louis or Dayton, regardless of conference alignment.

See, I take the exact opposite view (and that's probably a large source of the disconnect). Even Kentucky could end up missing the NCAA Tournament this year, so I see on-the-court success as something that ebbs and flows even among the most elite programs that have limitless amounts of money and fan support. As a result, I put *much* more weight on what a school brings to the table when they're 5-25 as opposed to when they're 25-5. The proper way to look at any expansion candidate is NOT the best case scenario, but rather the worst case scenario. Even if SLU or Dayton don't perform on-the-court, they have markets, history, geography, and institutional fit all on their side with what they bring to the table. Wichita State doesn't fit *any* of those factors. There is pretty much nothing that Wichita State brings to the C7's table outside of the current rankings and recent performance. Even then, that performance falls into the "good" but not "great" category. VCU at least brings a solid market, geography for the eastern portion of the C7, and a "great" on-the-court resume even if they don't fit institutionally. (And to be clear, I'm a very large supporter of taking both SLU and Dayton over VCU. As someone that has seen both the Big Ten model and the Big East model up close, the opportunity to build a league with top-to-bottom institutional fits should be chosen 1000 times out of 1000. However, VCU is still clearly in a category above Wichita State.)

I understand your point but I completely disagree. It was that reasoning that led the big east to invite Tulane and blow up their league.

I won't argue the merits about Wichita State because you don't want to hear them.

I will say if the Big East follows the path you advocate I fear they will quickly slide to WCC status and ultimately WCC money. We aren't the Big 10 which can afford to add schools for academic fit and market potential. We have to perform in the short term or we will be exposed.

Uh it's a 12 year deal, sooooo I don't see it going away that quickly. Also, the WCC has been a 1 bid league for years before st Mary's had a few good seasons and BYU joined.

The trouble I have is that the presumption among the Wichita State supporters is that they're some type of equivalent of Boise State football competitively when they simply aren't. So, even if you're arguing that on-the-court success should be weighed more than markets, it's not as if though Wichita State has some type of over-the-top success. Both Butler and VCU *do* have such over-the-top success, which is why they're being highly considered. As a result, it's a complete straw man argument that the new C7 league will somehow descend to WCC levels when they are almost certainly going to add Butler (the school with the most NCAA Tournament success of any school outside of the power conferences by far) plus Xavier and Creighton.

I have pretty good faith that the national sports fans' perception of the C7 and, more importantly, Fox and ESPN, will not turn one iota on whether Wichita State is in this league. I really don't want to come across as curt here, but it's just not anywhere near on the radar and it's not going to impact the perception or TV deal of the C7 whatsoever. You can legitimately argue that passing over VCU in favor of, say, SLU would cause that issue, yet certainly not Wichita State.

(01-22-2013 05:05 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  Well, neither Dayton or Saint Louis are tournament teams this year and Wichita State is.

We're not building a conference for "this year", we're building a conference for the next 10, 20, 30 years.

Quote:That is one point in their favor. If they have a lot of success in the postseason this year (and in a year with this little top talent, they could go a fair ways), then the gap grows.

Obviously, if they make the Final Four this year, that puts them on the national map. On the other hand, if they go out in the Sweet Sixteen, you're hanging your hat on two Sweet Sixteens in ten years, which isn't exactly a Superfriends-caliber resume. (The Aquaman and Robin spots are all full, thank you, only Superman/Batman/Flash/Green Lantern caliber applications are being considered at this time, thank you.)

Quote:To be honest, one VERY important point is how good a team is right now.

No, that's actually not that important. We're not looking to add a team because they were at their peak when we were handing out invitations, and then have them DePaul up the conference for the next 25 years.

Which is an injustice to DePaul--their Chicago location means that they always have the potential to put something together as long as we're a top-level league.

Quote:Saint Louis is an NIT team that could very easily fall of the edge and be the worst team in the C7 for years to come without Majerus.

I agree. I'm very leery of the Billikens. Their booster club sounds a lot like the booster clubs of a lot of the New Big East teams we're leaving behind.

Quote:Dayton is not a post-season team (NIT or CBI) at this point, and would enter the league as a punching bag.

With those two teams, you are adding them and hoping they improve dramatically while playing against stiffer competition. That does not happen very often.

In the case of Dayton, they have the fanbase and the basketball revenues to go on a big run at almost any time. They haven't had the success that Xavier has, but the money their program brings in makes them a potential power when they find the right coach, and the Big East tag will give them a boost.

Quote:Whereas with Wichita State, you are getting a quality team RIGHT NOW. A team that has 4 straight 25 win seasons, and two straight NCAA appearances. A team with a coach that has improved the team every year.

In other words, a team that is probably at its peak, with nowhere to go but down?

Quote:It is much more likely that Wichita State will be good early on in the conference's existence than that Dayton or SLU will be competitive.

But Dayton is much more likely to be competitive for the next 10 or 20 years, because they've been consistently competitive for the last 30-40 years, without an "elite conference" tag.

Quote:You can argue that historically SLU and Dayton are either comparable or better, but history does not mean they will bring a competitive program.

It's a better indication than looking at who's in the top 25 right now.

Quote:The C7 conference would look less mid-major if they earned more bids, and in the foreseeable future (1-3 more years), it is likely Wichita State will earn more bids than Saint Louis or Dayton, regardless of conference alignment.

WSU will earn more bids if they're in the MWC running through the tournament against inferior competition, yes. In the C-7 Big East, playing quality opponents every night in conference, that's a lot less certain.

(01-22-2013 07:15 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 05:05 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  Well, neither Dayton or Saint Louis are tournament teams this year and Wichita State is.

We're not building a conference for "this year", we're building a conference for the next 10, 20, 30 years.

Quote:That is one point in their favor. If they have a lot of success in the postseason this year (and in a year with this little top talent, they could go a fair ways), then the gap grows.

Obviously, if they make the Final Four this year, that puts them on the national map. On the other hand, if they go out in the Sweet Sixteen, you're hanging your hat on two Sweet Sixteens in ten years, which isn't exactly a Superfriends-caliber resume. (The Aquaman and Robin spots are all full, thank you, only Superman/Batman/Flash/Green Lantern caliber applications are being considered at this time, thank you.)

Quote:To be honest, one VERY important point is how good a team is right now.

No, that's actually not that important. We're not looking to add a team because they were at their peak when we were handing out invitations, and then have them DePaul up the conference for the next 25 years.

Which is an injustice to DePaul--their Chicago location means that they always have the potential to put something together as long as we're a top-level league.

Quote:Saint Louis is an NIT team that could very easily fall of the edge and be the worst team in the C7 for years to come without Majerus.

I agree. I'm very leery of the Billikens. Their booster club sounds a lot like the booster clubs of a lot of the New Big East teams we're leaving behind.

Quote:Dayton is not a post-season team (NIT or CBI) at this point, and would enter the league as a punching bag.

With those two teams, you are adding them and hoping they improve dramatically while playing against stiffer competition. That does not happen very often.

In the case of Dayton, they have the fanbase and the basketball revenues to go on a big run at almost any time. They haven't had the success that Xavier has, but the money their program brings in makes them a potential power when they find the right coach, and the Big East tag will give them a boost.

Quote:Whereas with Wichita State, you are getting a quality team RIGHT NOW. A team that has 4 straight 25 win seasons, and two straight NCAA appearances. A team with a coach that has improved the team every year.

In other words, a team that is probably at its peak, with nowhere to go but down?

Quote:It is much more likely that Wichita State will be good early on in the conference's existence than that Dayton or SLU will be competitive.

But Dayton is much more likely to be competitive for the next 10 or 20 years, because they've been consistently competitive for the last 30-40 years, without an "elite conference" tag.

Quote:You can argue that historically SLU and Dayton are either comparable or better, but history does not mean they will bring a competitive program.

It's a better indication than looking at who's in the top 25 right now.

Quote:The C7 conference would look less mid-major if they earned more bids, and in the foreseeable future (1-3 more years), it is likely Wichita State will earn more bids than Saint Louis or Dayton, regardless of conference alignment.

WSU will earn more bids if they're in the MWC running through the tournament against inferior competition, yes. In the C-7 Big East, playing quality opponents every night in conference, that's a lot less certain.

I agree with everything here. Basing these decisions on whose in the Top 25 right now or who your coach currently is is really short-sighted.

(01-22-2013 06:44 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 06:35 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 05:29 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(01-22-2013 05:05 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  Well, neither Dayton or Saint Louis are tournament teams this year and Wichita State is. That is one point in their favor. If they have a lot of success in the postseason this year (and in a year with this little top talent, they could go a fair ways), then the gap grows.

To be honest, one VERY important point is how good a team is right now. Saint Louis is an NIT team that could very easily fall of the edge and be the worst team in the C7 for years to come without Majerus. Dayton is not a post-season team (NIT or CBI) at this point, and would enter the league as a punching bag.

With those two teams, you are adding them and hoping they improve dramatically while playing against stiffer competition. That does not happen very often.

Whereas with Wichita State, you are getting a quality team RIGHT NOW. A team that has 4 straight 25 win seasons, and two straight NCAA appearances. A team with a coach that has improved the team every year. It is much more likely that Wichita State will be good early on in the conference's existence than that Dayton or SLU will be competitive.

You can argue that historically SLU and Dayton are either comparable or better, but history does not mean they will bring a competitive program. The C7 conference would look less mid-major if they earned more bids, and in the foreseeable future (1-3 more years), it is likely Wichita State will earn more bids than Saint Louis or Dayton, regardless of conference alignment.

See, I take the exact opposite view (and that's probably a large source of the disconnect). Even Kentucky could end up missing the NCAA Tournament this year, so I see on-the-court success as something that ebbs and flows even among the most elite programs that have limitless amounts of money and fan support. As a result, I put *much* more weight on what a school brings to the table when they're 5-25 as opposed to when they're 25-5. The proper way to look at any expansion candidate is NOT the best case scenario, but rather the worst case scenario. Even if SLU or Dayton don't perform on-the-court, they have markets, history, geography, and institutional fit all on their side with what they bring to the table. Wichita State doesn't fit *any* of those factors. There is pretty much nothing that Wichita State brings to the C7's table outside of the current rankings and recent performance. Even then, that performance falls into the "good" but not "great" category. VCU at least brings a solid market, geography for the eastern portion of the C7, and a "great" on-the-court resume even if they don't fit institutionally. (And to be clear, I'm a very large supporter of taking both SLU and Dayton over VCU. As someone that has seen both the Big Ten model and the Big East model up close, the opportunity to build a league with top-to-bottom institutional fits should be chosen 1000 times out of 1000. However, VCU is still clearly in a category above Wichita State.)

I understand your point but I completely disagree. It was that reasoning that led the big east to invite Tulane and blow up their league.

I won't argue the merits about Wichita State because you don't want to hear them.

I will say if the Big East follows the path you advocate I fear they will quickly slide to WCC status and ultimately WCC money. We aren't the Big 10 which can afford to add schools for academic fit and market potential. We have to perform in the short term or we will be exposed.

Uh it's a 12 year deal, sooooo I don't see it going away that quickly. Also, the WCC has been a 1 bid league for years before st Mary's had a few good seasons and BYU joined.

Agreed. The WCC plays in gyms. The C7+5 will be playing in NBA and NBA quality arenas averaging 10,000 +/- fans/game. Also, nobody's talking about taking an otherwise unqualified program because it is a better cultural fit. The last two spots appear to be a competition among SLU, Dayton and VCU. Even if VCU has had greater recent success, "cultural fits" SLU and Dayton are highly successful programs with great fan bases.