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McDonald at Senior Bowl
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
(02-19-2013 04:25 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(02-19-2013 03:41 PM)Pan95 Wrote:  
(02-19-2013 03:05 PM)talon owl Wrote:  Starting the combine watch...

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/191766781.html

Great assessment by Sloan. These are the type of coaches we must ensure that we are paying well.

I'm not in any position to judge which coaches are so deserving, but I agree 100% with the concept. Good position coaches and coordinators need to be paid a little extra (or promoted with the appropriate raises).

Most of them will eventually move elsewhere, but keeping them at Rice for as long as reasonable should be a priority. By the same token, I wouldn't be a fan of keeping an underperforming coach merely for the sake of stability and fear that a replacement might not be as good. I'm a little shocked that, at least as of now, no Rice coaches have moved elsewhere (by their choice or Coach Bailiff's). Were all Rice's coaches so good that there are no better options out there at any position?

Seeing McGuffie's results at the regional combine really makes me wish he could have showcased himself at the national combine. It also makes me all the more hopeful that McDonald really shines while he is there. Seems like Solomon had a solid combine last year, though I remember being a little surprised he didn't throw up a few more reps on the bench.

I agree with most of this sentiment.... but I'd add that having a great TE coach is only REALLY beneficial if you fully utilize the TE. By moving him to the slot as we did, we probably lost some of the best teaching skills of the coach. It's like having (purely as an example of styles and not coaching ability or anything else) Dan Marino be the QB coach in the wishbone or Vince Young in a pro-style.

In NO WAY intended as a knock on anyone... merely an encouragement to recognize the skills and work to highlite them in the offensive packages.
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2013 01:28 PM by Hambone10.)
02-22-2013 01:26 PM
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talon owl Offline
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Post: #42
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
Vance did 31 reps of 225lbs on the bench. Will probably be one of the best of TE group if not best. More than top offensive tackle Luke Joeckel (27).

Edit: from what I'm seeing it was the top figure among the TEs that participated, and by some margin. Ertz did 24, Eifert 22.
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2013 05:30 PM by talon owl.)
02-22-2013 05:05 PM
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ChicagoOwl (BS '07) Offline
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Post: #43
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
(02-22-2013 05:05 PM)talon owl Wrote:  Vance did 31 reps of 225lbs on the bench. Will probably be one of the best of TE group if not best. More than top offensive tackle Luke Joeckel (27).

Edit: from what I'm seeing it was the top figure among the TEs that participated, and by some margin. Ertz did 24, Eifert 22.

As fast as a (big) WR, and as strong as an OL. What a freak of nature, this guy!
02-22-2013 05:32 PM
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talon owl Offline
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Post: #44
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
(02-22-2013 05:32 PM)ChicagoOwl (BS 07) Wrote:  
(02-22-2013 05:05 PM)talon owl Wrote:  Vance did 31 reps of 225lbs on the bench. Will probably be one of the best of TE group if not best. More than top offensive tackle Luke Joeckel (27).

Edit: from what I'm seeing it was the top figure among the TEs that participated, and by some margin. Ertz did 24, Eifert 22.

As fast as a (big) WR, and as strong as an OL. What a freak of nature, this guy!

We'll see just how fast tomorrow. With this bench result, expect the talking heads to be anticipating his 40 dash and other drills.


That bench rep # is 8 more than Gronkowski did at the combine.
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2013 05:43 PM by talon owl.)
02-22-2013 05:40 PM
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smackdaddy Offline
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Post: #45
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
Thanks for the updates, Talon. That's so exciting for Vance (and Rice). I think he'll do excellent tomorrow in the 40, but how amazing would it be if he could pull a "Seven Chinese Brothers" and excuse himself for a moment, only to have McGuffie come in unnoticed and run his dash!! It's like, each drill he taps out to one of his Rice McTwins!! So cool. It would be especially epic if the combine ever adds "ocean swallowing" to the drills...
02-22-2013 08:13 PM
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Tiki Owl Offline
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Post: #46
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
Cool to see Rice's @VMcDonald88 near/at top of these combine results. Tops in 225 Reps (31), 24 was next best. Broad jumped 9'11" - 2nd best
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02-23-2013 12:12 PM
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At Ease Offline
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Post: #47
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
Think I saw unofficial 4.69 and 4.63 times for Vance in the 40.
02-23-2013 02:09 PM
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Almadenmike Offline
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Post: #48
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
SB Nation article today:

#1 on his "Let's take a look at who could make the most noise in Indianapolis on Saturday" list:

Quote:Vance McDonald, Tight End, Rice

If you haven't heard of Vance McDonald, that's ok. He plays at Rice and watching the Owls play football isn't on the top of anybody's fall to-do list. But lost in Rice's triple option attack this season was a physically gifted tight end McDonald. During yesterday's workouts, McDonald put up 31 reps on the bench press, a number that becomes more impressive when you see that he has an 84-inch wingspan. This kid will make some noise on Saturday.

The writer clearly gave up watching Rice in our triple-option days.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2013 04:00 PM by Almadenmike.)
02-23-2013 03:59 PM
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Brookes Owl Offline
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Post: #49
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
(02-23-2013 02:09 PM)At Ease Wrote:  Think I saw unofficial 4.69 and 4.63 times for Vance in the 40.

pfft - he can't even run faster than an offensive lineman.

That's sarcasm for those about to give me the business. Vance appears to be 5th fastest among TEs and is at least 15 lbs heavier than the 4 faster guys. But that OL at 4.65? Wow.

ETA: Dang it. Armstead's official time was 4.71, making this whole post even more worthless. I'll leave it though, as a shameful reminder.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2013 07:49 PM by Brookes Owl.)
02-23-2013 04:50 PM
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talon owl Offline
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Post: #50
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
McDonald was singled out by Mike Mayock and Kurt Warner on the NFL broadcast.

I saw the clip of McDonald running "the gauntlet", no drops and ran it well.
02-23-2013 09:51 PM
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gsloth Offline
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Post: #51
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
McDonald comes in at #5 TE in post-combine assessment from Chris Burke at SI.com.

http://nfl.si.com/2013/02/26/2013-nfl-dr...t-combine/
02-26-2013 09:54 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #52
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
He won't be the 5th TE taken. I'm betting he's third. He is more "unique" than some of those guys and better suited to the modern offensive game than some of them. He may have less film "doing what they want him to do" than the other guys, but none of them can do what he does.

Think about how often Casey got open deep... and I mean deep in college. You don't see him do that with the Texans because pro safeties can stay with him, but typical pro linebackers can't. McDonald is the kind of guy who can line up on the end against the big stopper MLB and beat him deep drawing the safety... or he can shift from the end to the slot against the smaller ones taking them out of the middle. Even if they go zone, he can help create HUGE holes for others to exploit, even if he isn't catching 8 a game.
(This post was last modified: 02-27-2013 10:33 AM by Hambone10.)
02-27-2013 10:33 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #53
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
(02-27-2013 10:33 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  He won't be the 5th TE taken. I'm betting he's third. He is more "unique" than some of those guys and better suited to the modern offensive game than some of them. He may have less film "doing what they want him to do" than the other guys, but none of them can do what he does.
Think about how often Casey got open deep... and I mean deep in college. You don't see him do that with the Texans because pro safeties can stay with him, but typical pro linebackers can't. McDonald is the kind of guy who can line up on the end against the big stopper MLB and beat him deep drawing the safety... or he can shift from the end to the slot against the smaller ones taking them out of the middle. Even if they go zone, he can help create HUGE holes for others to exploit, even if he isn't catching 8 a game.

Huge point.

When we spread them out, if our TE cannot be covered by a LB, then that LB cannot stay on the field. Whether you cover our TE with the guy you bring on to replace the LB, or cover him with a safety and shuffle elsewhere, either way you've taken a better run defender off the field and replaced him with a worse run defender, and we still have the same people to block with. So the defense simply runs out of numbers. Either they stay with their basic personnel package and we exploit the pass, or they change personnel and we exploit the run.

Enter ruowls to explain that we can still exploit the pass even if they change personnel. And he's right. But basically, once the TE is that kind of deep threat, you can pretty much exploit anything.
02-27-2013 10:47 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #54
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
It's the difference between "reacting to what they do", and MAKING them do something.

RU is "on vacation", but we talked about this very thing the other day....

The game of football is changing, and we should be on the forefront of this change, and not behind.

If you'll forgive my rudimentary understanding, I'll give an example.

Tampa 2 is merely a change in the responsibilities on defense to adjust to the anticipated adjustment by most teams to SEEING cover 2. The traditional adjustment to a 2 deep zone is to send 3 verticals and expect them to jump routes, so Tampa 2 (as I understand it) LOOKS like 2 deep pre-snap, but adjusts to cover the three verticals. It becomes a cat and mouse game by the coaches. You line up as cover 2, but is it really Tampa 2? Am I going to adjust on offense to 3 verticals, or am I going to expect you run Tampa 2, and thus I will stick with my base play? THAT is old school.

BY having these "hybrid" guys, especially in college and PARTICULARLY at the level where WE are, the difference in run/pass skills of the typical LB and nickel back is dramatic... so Tampa 2 with a LB against our big/fast TE is not much help deep, and with a DB, gives up the "base" play... so now the decision to adjust to 3 verticals or to stick with the original play is no longer a question of guessing what they're really doing, but instead of merely recognizing that they've got a big, slow LB or a smaller, fast DB on my big fast TE.

The OLD school adjustment takes meerkatting and drilling and watching film and learning tendencies and is heavily reliant on coaching skills (at the snap)... the NEWER version relies more on the coaches teaching players to recognize who is covering them, or the area they are trying to go to, and how to create an advantage.

The pros are going this direction as well, which is why a guy like the ND linebacker is such a disappointment in his speed. At 4.81 vs McDonalds 4.67 (iirc) He couldn't keep up with McDonald deep without help which means he can't be a 3 down player.
(This post was last modified: 02-27-2013 12:38 PM by Hambone10.)
02-27-2013 12:38 PM
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Post: #55
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
Bleacher Report did a list of top hidden gem for each position in the draft (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/15402...m=referral ). There's no need to go to that horrible website, but you can probably guess who the hidden gem at tight end was
02-27-2013 01:21 PM
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talon owl Offline
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Post: #56
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
(02-26-2013 09:54 PM)gsloth Wrote:  McDonald comes in at #5 TE in post-combine assessment from Chris Burke at SI.com.

http://nfl.si.com/2013/02/26/2013-nfl-dr...t-combine/

Vance continued his rise on nfldraftscout's rankings, he's now at #3 behind Eifert & Ertz, projected for the 2nd round:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/pro...&order=ASC
02-27-2013 03:14 PM
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07owl Offline
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Post: #57
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
Another Bleacher Report mention for McDonald in their stupid slideshow about small school standouts: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/15472...ine/page/3 . Vance had my favorite play of the year vs. Kansas, so I hope I get to see him do it in the NFL soon.
(This post was last modified: 02-28-2013 04:51 PM by 07owl.)
02-28-2013 04:51 PM
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waltgreenberg Offline
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Post: #58
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
In today's Chicago Tribune, Vance was mentioned as one of "ten surprises" of the NFL combines, and was projected as the 3rd TE selected (behind the Notre Dame and Stanford guys) in the mid-to-high second round.
02-28-2013 05:46 PM
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OldOwl Offline
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Post: #59
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
It would great if the Texans would draft McDonald and both him and Casey play on the same team. However, I dont think Texas is looking at drafting a tight end.


In today's Chicago Tribune, Vance was mentioned as one of "ten surprises" of the NFL combines, and was projected as the 3rd TE selected (behind the Notre Dame and Stanford guys) in the mid-to-high second round.
[/quote]
02-28-2013 07:36 PM
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ruowls Offline
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Post: #60
RE: McDonald at Senior Bowl
(02-27-2013 10:47 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-27-2013 10:33 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  He won't be the 5th TE taken. I'm betting he's third. He is more "unique" than some of those guys and better suited to the modern offensive game than some of them. He may have less film "doing what they want him to do" than the other guys, but none of them can do what he does.
Think about how often Casey got open deep... and I mean deep in college. You don't see him do that with the Texans because pro safeties can stay with him, but typical pro linebackers can't. McDonald is the kind of guy who can line up on the end against the big stopper MLB and beat him deep drawing the safety... or he can shift from the end to the slot against the smaller ones taking them out of the middle. Even if they go zone, he can help create HUGE holes for others to exploit, even if he isn't catching 8 a game.

Huge point.

When we spread them out, if our TE cannot be covered by a LB, then that LB cannot stay on the field. Whether you cover our TE with the guy you bring on to replace the LB, or cover him with a safety and shuffle elsewhere, either way you've taken a better run defender off the field and replaced him with a worse run defender, and we still have the same people to block with. So the defense simply runs out of numbers. Either they stay with their basic personnel package and we exploit the pass, or they change personnel and we exploit the run.

Enter ruowls to explain that we can still exploit the pass even if they change personnel. And he's right. But basically, once the TE is that kind of deep threat, you can pretty much exploit anything.

OC 101

The TE/FB/H-back are are functionally the same in the running game. The true crossover between the running game and passing game is the "H-back position". The H-back lets you move the TE along the LOS to block. Otherwise, you can only pull the TE like a lineman which limits his reach to the other side. Likewise, a FB in the backfield has the limitation of getting downfield in the passing game. Putting the FB near the LOS, the H-back position, he can block as well as get in position to get into the entire passing game.

On the defense, the LB and safeties are the strength adjusters. They are the ones who adjust to the run strength of the offensive formation. They are also used in pass defense so they are the crossover players adjusting to the offensive crossover player.

On defense, the strength adjuster has to be able to physically stuff the run. In pass defense, all he has to do is shut down a passing lane. This is why size isn't necessarily a mismatch. It isn't size that gets you open. Size is very important in the running game. It lets you overpower the opponent to either stuff the run or be pancaked and run over.

It is important for the FB/TE/H-back to understand this fundamental difference between the run game and the passing game. Coverages affect passing lanes in certain ways. A good receiver needs to understand the inherent weakness to specific passing lanes that coverages have. The basic starting point is that a base defense will rush 4 and cover with 7. Not to deviate too much but some of the 7 have gap responsibilities in run support which gives them the duel roles. Anyway, using Cover 2 as the example like Hambone, 2 will be deep and 5 will be underneath. This was ok in the olden days with 2 backs in the backfield and the TE being detained at the LOS because an offense could only get 2 receivers vertical quickly. With the spread, you can get 4 vertical quickly so the defense adjusted, the Tampa 2 as an example allowed for more defenders to go vertical. Or as another example, the defense developed quarters, 4 deep. The problem with quarters for the defense is that it is basically Cover 2 but redistributing 2 underneath defenders to deep. So, you have 4 deep and 3 underneath. Since underneath coverage actually covers the passing lanes, the quarter deep defenders have a tendency to try to "jump" routes to compensate for losing the underneath coverage. And if you try to jump a route, the defender gets caught flat footed at the intermediate break point and you run right by them, especially safeties who are used to covering underneath passing lanes.

The trick to understanding passing lanes is recognizing which defender is assigned to the area your route is supposed to take you to and which defender is assigned to cover the passing lane you need to develop. They may not necessarily be the same defender. In this type of offensive reasoning, it doesn't matter if you label the coverage. You actually break it down to the elements that make the coverage. As an example, Cover 3 has 3 defenders deep and 4 defenders underneath. The flat coverage could be a corner, safety, or LB. it still would be Cover 3 regardless of who is in the flat but the dynamics of each variation of the coverage would be different. The passing lane for a deep out would be different depending own who was the deep third and who was in the flat. So, if you were taught to run a deep out a specific way against Cover 3, two-thirds of the time you'd most likely be unsuccessful as you aren't creating the most efficient passing lane for the variation of Cover 3 you are actually seeing. And, most likely, the defense will continue to call a variation that you don't adapt to. And the result is you don't score. And if you don't score, you don't win.
03-04-2013 12:33 AM
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