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[split] The Greatness of Wichita State
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Title Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Why 12? Why Not 13?
(01-21-2013 03:20 AM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  I'm sorry, your ***** is not as big as you think it is. Wichita State is a that is better now than any C7 school and arguably as good as any of the candidates

Umm, no

And, Christ, Wichita State has been in two freaking tournaments since 1988. Honestly, 1988. Only once since 1981 (right at the threshold of the modern era of college basketball), has WSU managed to get out of the 1st Round.

There's literally nothing about that school that would merit their discussion, even if you were vetting 30 teams.
(This post was last modified: 01-21-2013 09:28 AM by Title.)
01-21-2013 08:51 AM
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Post: #22
RE: Why 12? Why Not 13?
(01-21-2013 08:51 AM)Title Wrote:  
(01-21-2013 03:20 AM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  I'm sorry, your ***** is not as big as you think it is. Wichita State is a that is better now than any C7 school and arguably as good as any of the candidates

Umm, no

And, Christ, Wichita State has been in two freaking tournaments since 1988. Honestly, 1988. Only once since 1981 (right at the threshold of the modern era of college basketball), has WSU managed to get out of the 1st Round.

There's literally nothing about that school that would merit their discussion, even if you were vetting 30 teams.

30 teams overstates the case. They're No. 1 in their city, they don't have football complications, they're motivated.

They have a decent chance if we go to 14 or 16. But we're not going to 14 or 16.
01-21-2013 10:15 AM
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Downtown Shocker Brown Offline
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Post: #23
RE: [split] The Greatness of Wichita State
How about we compare numbers for SLU, Dayton, and Wichita State. I know that we will NEVER have the priviledge to play with schools such as DePaul (75-62 win on neutral court this year), but lets use your year, 1981, as the starting point of recent history.

St. Louis -- 5 appearances, 3 wins
Dayton -- 7 appearances, 4 wins
Wichita State -- 6 appearances, 5 wins
VCU -- 10 appearances, 10 wins (6 in last 2 years)
Butler -- 10 appearances, 16 wins (10 over last 3 years)
Creighton -- 11 appearances, 4 wins
Xavier -- 22 appearances (23 overall), 21 wins

We haven't had players like David West, James Posey, Torraye Braggs, and Brian Grant. We have had players like Cleo Littleton, Warren (Armstrong) Jabali, Dave Stallworth, Bob Wilson, Nate Bowman, Greg Dreiling, Antione Carr, Cliff Levingston, Xavier McDaniel, and Maurice Evans.

We have been to the Final Four, as has Dayton, Butler, and VCU. SLU has not. Oh, BTW, neither has Xavier.

You can rag on Wichita State all you want based on personal feelings, but if you re-read the threads where Wichita State has been discussed, we stack up well against the other schools being talked about in many areas. We are not Xavier. We are not Georgetown. But fact of the matter is two of the schools that get in if you go to 12 are going to be very comparable to Wichita State in facilities, budget, support, attendance, history (recent and not so recent), coaching salary, etc.

That is not my opinion, that is a fact.
(This post was last modified: 01-21-2013 10:59 AM by Downtown Shocker Brown.)
01-21-2013 10:58 AM
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Post: #24
RE: Why 12? Why Not 13?
(01-21-2013 08:51 AM)Title Wrote:  
(01-21-2013 03:20 AM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  I'm sorry, your ***** is not as big as you think it is. Wichita State is a that is better now than any C7 school and arguably as good as any of the candidates

Umm, no

And, Christ, Wichita State has been in two freaking tournaments since 1988. Honestly, 1988. Only once since 1981 (right at the threshold of the modern era of college basketball), has WSU managed to get out of the 1st Round.

There's literally nothing about that school that would merit their discussion, even if you were vetting 30 teams.

"Now" was not supposed to mean 1988. It means "now."

As an aside, I don't think this split off should have happened I think this thread should be deleted. There is no reason this needs to exist other than a Xavier fan trying to start an unnecessary argument. This doesn't nothing to further any conversation and really only makes the people in the thread look like tools. Even the thread title seems to try an emotional response.
(This post was last modified: 01-21-2013 11:08 AM by College Basketball Fan.)
01-21-2013 11:04 AM
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Post: #25
RE: [split] The Greatness of Wichita State
(01-20-2013 06:54 PM)Xbus Wrote:  You are wasting your time expounding on the "greatness" of Wichita state. They aren't being invited. EVER.

According to other mods, the fact that I can't PM you probably means you have me on ignore.

Your posting history has nothing but attacks on Wichita STate. I haven't had a problem with anything you've said, I like a pretty wide range of debate, and I don't believe in mod-hammer-ing because someone's feelings got bruised. I like to keep the discussion away from obscene-ish name-calling, other than that I've had no problems with this thread.

But if you're here to troll, you're gone. This is your warning. If you don't see it, that;s your problem.
01-21-2013 11:14 AM
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Burrito Offline
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Post: #26
RE: [split] The Greatness of Wichita State
Watching the Creighton game, Wichita seems like a tough place for visitors to play. They would bring some positives to the league: a solid record with a commitment to Bball, a new TV market (Kansas), over 10K in home attendance, no football, a closer travel partner for Gonzaga is they do join. That being said, if the League only goes to 12, they will not make the cut. I do hope they are considered if the League expands beyond that.
01-21-2013 11:39 AM
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Post: #27
RE: Why 12? Why Not 13?
(01-20-2013 09:35 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 09:23 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 09:09 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 08:52 PM)Xbus Wrote:  Whichita is a better overall program than Xavier? Hahahhaahhaahaha. You lost all credibility with that statement bud. Wow. You are clueless. Game over. Go home.

Certainly not historically. My guess is he meant that "right now" Wichita State is the better team. And that is true; this year Wichita State is better than Xavier.

Wichita State is also much better in baseball top 50 and volleyball top 50. How many top 50 sports does X have?

The most important thing is who is getting an invite to a premier BBall league and who is stuck in a weaker MVC?

Baseball and Volleyball play no role in this decision.

Actually the league Presidents said strength of the overall athletic program will play a role. They mentioned Volleyball, basketball and soccer but I suspect baseball and lacrosse will have some input.
01-21-2013 11:46 AM
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Post: #28
RE: [split] The Greatness of Wichita State
(01-21-2013 11:39 AM)Burrito Wrote:  Watching the Creighton game, Wichita seems like a tough place for visitors to play. They would bring some positives to the league: a solid record with a commitment to Bball, a new TV market (Kansas), over 10K in home attendance, no football, a closer travel partner for Gonzaga is they do join. That being said, if the League only goes to 12, they will not make the cut. I do hope they are considered if the League expands beyond that.

Burrito,

This has been our argument all along. We know Wichita State has less than 1% chance of getting invited if they stop at 10. I believe that goes up slightly, but still less than 5% if they go to 12. I think at 13 or 14 we are solidly in the discussion and it is a better than a coin flip.

What got me started over here was watching the talk of SLU and Dayton. Everything that has been said about what they bring we can match outside of Market and Private institutions.

I am a big basketball fan. I want this league to DOMINATE the NCAA bid process. I saw a post in another thread about creating a league with 15 teams, broken down into 5 team divisions. Schedule would be 18 games (H-H against your division, rotating with rest of teams so everyone plays everyone each year) and allow room for OOC games.

That league could pull 8-9 bids each year easily. Every night would be a war like hasn't been seen since the Valley in the 60's. It would be the end all be all of College Basketball.
01-21-2013 11:49 AM
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Title Offline
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Post: #29
RE: [split] The Greatness of Wichita State
It's not just that WSU lacks requisite basketball success. It is a large public school half way across the country, that admits 94% of applicants.

I was being serious when I said 30 and its not out of disrespect. It's an institution/program ill fit - like no fit at all.
(This post was last modified: 01-21-2013 12:05 PM by Title.)
01-21-2013 12:03 PM
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Post: #30
RE: Why 12? Why Not 13?
(01-21-2013 04:40 AM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  
(01-21-2013 04:22 AM)Xbus Wrote:  That's my point, one good season doesn't make you a better program.

Again, this is all just thread derailment. I am sure that the topic was not "E-peen contest between Wichita State and Xavier."

The only point I'm trying to make is that the conference's first and foremost priority should be to ensure that the basketball is absolutely top-notch.

Wichita State and Gonzaga need to excel eliminate the questions regarding those programs (fit + geography), whereas Dayton or Saint Louis probably only need to show a little more success because their only questions come from the basketball end of things.

I'd say Gonzaga and Wichita State would need a Final Four run or similar to get the national recognition they would need. SLU or Dayton, maybe a couple Sweet 16s. Either way, I think Xavier, Butler, VCU, and Creighton have done their work already.

I am not sure Wichita State and Gonzaga are analogous in terms of geography. One is near a school you are already adding and is a long time rival and the other is in Spokane which is a long way from everything with no local travel partners unless you want to add Portland also.

Travel partners matter, Basketball strength matters, overall program strength matters, rivalries matter. If your inviting Creighton on all those items Wichita State is a good fit.

They don't fit institutionally as well nor does VCU. I hope the add Tulane crowd learns their lesson and looks at the other factors more.

If we stop at 12 I hope we do 12 as:
Providence
St Johns
Seton Hall
Villanova
Georgetown
VCU

Marquette
DePaul
Xavier
Butler
Creighton
Wichita State

That has reasonable travel pairs, maximizes rivalries, has the strongest basketball based off of today's RPI's, has strong Olympics.
01-21-2013 12:06 PM
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Title Offline
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Post: #31
RE: [split] The Greatness of Wichita State
Gonzaga is actually being strongly considered. That is from a very good source two days ago. (Guess who played at Butler?)

The situations aren't comparable
01-21-2013 12:08 PM
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Post: #32
RE: [split] The Greatness of Wichita State
(01-21-2013 12:03 PM)Title Wrote:  It's not just that WSU lacks requisite basketball success. It is a large public school half way across the country, that admits 94% of applicants.

I was being serious when I said 30 and its not out of disrespect. It's an institution/program ill fit - like no fit at all.

It is a program fit issue but that issue doesn't just affect Wichita State it also affects VCU.

The conference Presidents must decide. Do we want to be a top program athletically and pull in Television dollars or do we want institutional fit? Very hard to maximize both unless your the Big 10. Even then many would argue with their latest adds.

This same group of Presidents voted to add Tulane due to institutional fit and it blew up their conference.

BTW. Wichita State is not that far away unlike Gonzaga.
01-21-2013 12:15 PM
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Post: #33
RE: [split] The Greatness of Wichita State
(01-21-2013 12:08 PM)Title Wrote:  Gonzaga is actually being strongly considered. That is from a very good source two days ago. (Guess who played at Butler?)

The situations aren't comparable

I am aware of that. You don't think I watched the game? I have a student at Butler and her boyfriend plays on the team.

Gonzaga is a problem geographically unless you want to do the east west thing fully. Adding Gonzaga is like trying to pick off Boise State. You would think these guys would learn from their past mistakes!!!

If you want to add Gonzaga we should be back to having the east/west two division discussion or let's just stop now. They have no travel partner. They are in the western time zone. You complain about Wichita State and they are the central time zone.

The only Gonzaga has is they are a private Catholic school with good basketball. Boise State all over again, Catholic style.
01-21-2013 12:31 PM
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College Basketball Fan Offline
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Post: #34
RE: [split] The Greatness of Wichita State
(01-21-2013 12:03 PM)Title Wrote:  It's not just that WSU lacks requisite basketball success. It is a large public school half way across the country, that admits 94% of applicants.

I was being serious when I said 30 and its not out of disrespect. It's an institution/program ill fit - like no fit at all.

Have you ever heard of the AAU? It stands for the Association of American Universities, and it is a big deal. There is a large public school in Kansas that admits 93% of its applicants, and it is a member of the AAU. No member of the Catholic 7 or candidate has met that mark; admittance policies do not determine academic success.

I bring this up only to prove a point. The Catholic 7 would take KU everyday of the week and twice on Sundays and it would have the same institutional problems that Wichita State has. That is not a comparison between those two programs, only a point to illustrate that basketball is the foremost priority.
01-21-2013 12:39 PM
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Post: #35
RE: [split] The Greatness of Wichita State
(01-21-2013 12:31 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(01-21-2013 12:08 PM)Title Wrote:  Gonzaga is actually being strongly considered. That is from a very good source two days ago. (Guess who played at Butler?)

The situations aren't comparable

I am aware of that. You don't think I watched the game? I have a student at Butler and her boyfriend plays on the team.

Gonzaga is a problem geographically unless you want to do the east west thing fully. Adding Gonzaga is like trying to pick off Boise State. You would think these guys would learn from their past mistakes!!!

If you want to add Gonzaga we should be back to having the east/west two division discussion or let's just stop now. They have no travel partner. They are in the western time zone. You complain about Wichita State and they are the central time zone.

The only Gonzaga has is they are a private Catholic school with good basketball. Boise State all over again, Catholic style.

Uh every reliable report doesn't have Gonzaga in. Wouldn't that mean they learned their lesson?

Oh and they weren't allowed to vote on Boise and SD st.
01-21-2013 01:04 PM
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Post: #36
RE: [split] The Greatness of Wichita State
(01-21-2013 01:04 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  
(01-21-2013 12:31 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(01-21-2013 12:08 PM)Title Wrote:  Gonzaga is actually being strongly considered. That is from a very good source two days ago. (Guess who played at Butler?)

The situations aren't comparable

I am aware of that. You don't think I watched the game? I have a student at Butler and her boyfriend plays on the team.

Gonzaga is a problem geographically unless you want to do the east west thing fully. Adding Gonzaga is like trying to pick off Boise State. You would think these guys would learn from their past mistakes!!!

If you want to add Gonzaga we should be back to having the east/west two division discussion or let's just stop now. They have no travel partner. They are in the western time zone. You complain about Wichita State and they are the central time zone.

The only Gonzaga has is they are a private Catholic school with good basketball. Boise State all over again, Catholic style.

Uh every reliable report doesn't have Gonzaga in. Wouldn't that mean they learned their lesson?

Oh and they weren't allowed to vote on Boise and SD st.

I am hoping we don't add Gonzaga as an outlier. But the Presidents were part of the strategic discussions with the previous commish.

Now if you wanted to do 10 and 10 it would be feasible but I don't think you have 10 programs in the west that care about basketball.
01-21-2013 01:17 PM
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Post: #37
RE: [split] The Greatness of Wichita State
(01-21-2013 11:49 AM)Downtown Shocker Brown Wrote:  
(01-21-2013 11:39 AM)Burrito Wrote:  Watching the Creighton game, Wichita seems like a tough place for visitors to play. They would bring some positives to the league: a solid record with a commitment to Bball, a new TV market (Kansas), over 10K in home attendance, no football, a closer travel partner for Gonzaga is they do join. That being said, if the League only goes to 12, they will not make the cut. I do hope they are considered if the League expands beyond that.

Burrito,

This has been our argument all along. We know Wichita State has less than 1% chance of getting invited if they stop at 10. I believe that goes up slightly, but still less than 5% if they go to 12. I think at 13 or 14 we are solidly in the discussion and it is a better than a coin flip.

What got me started over here was watching the talk of SLU and Dayton. Everything that has been said about what they bring we can match outside of Market and Private institutions.

I am a big basketball fan. I want this league to DOMINATE the NCAA bid process. I saw a post in another thread about creating a league with 15 teams, broken down into 5 team divisions. Schedule would be 18 games (H-H against your division, rotating with rest of teams so everyone plays everyone each year) and allow room for OOC games.

That league could pull 8-9 bids each year easily. Every night would be a war like hasn't been seen since the Valley in the 60's. It would be the end all be all of College Basketball.

I like Wichita State. I really do. However, they're just not on the radar for the C7. Dayton and SLU are in larger markets with better geography and are perfect institutional fits. If the C7 would take in a public school, it would be VCU (which has impeccable on-the-court credentials and better geography, to boot). Heck, there are other public options like UMass that could be in play. It's nothing personal or even any indictment of Wichita State itself, but there's really no consideration of them for this league outside of this message board.
01-21-2013 01:42 PM
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Post: #38
RE: [split] The Greatness of Wichita State
(01-21-2013 01:42 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(01-21-2013 11:49 AM)Downtown Shocker Brown Wrote:  
(01-21-2013 11:39 AM)Burrito Wrote:  Watching the Creighton game, Wichita seems like a tough place for visitors to play. They would bring some positives to the league: a solid record with a commitment to Bball, a new TV market (Kansas), over 10K in home attendance, no football, a closer travel partner for Gonzaga is they do join. That being said, if the League only goes to 12, they will not make the cut. I do hope they are considered if the League expands beyond that.

Burrito,

This has been our argument all along. We know Wichita State has less than 1% chance of getting invited if they stop at 10. I believe that goes up slightly, but still less than 5% if they go to 12. I think at 13 or 14 we are solidly in the discussion and it is a better than a coin flip.

What got me started over here was watching the talk of SLU and Dayton. Everything that has been said about what they bring we can match outside of Market and Private institutions.

I am a big basketball fan. I want this league to DOMINATE the NCAA bid process. I saw a post in another thread about creating a league with 15 teams, broken down into 5 team divisions. Schedule would be 18 games (H-H against your division, rotating with rest of teams so everyone plays everyone each year) and allow room for OOC games.

That league could pull 8-9 bids each year easily. Every night would be a war like hasn't been seen since the Valley in the 60's. It would be the end all be all of College Basketball.

I like Wichita State. I really do. However, they're just not on the radar for the C7. Dayton and SLU are in larger markets with better geography and are perfect institutional fits. If the C7 would take in a public school, it would be VCU (which has impeccable on-the-court credentials and better geography, to boot). Heck, there are other public options like UMass that could be in play. It's nothing personal or even any indictment of Wichita State itself, but there's really no consideration of them for this league outside of this message board.

I think VCU will be the discussion point. If you have VCU then many arguments against Wichita State goes away because you already took VCU. Wichita State is much more committed to athletics than St. Louis and for basketball Kansas is a better market.
01-21-2013 02:23 PM
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Post: #39
RE: [split] The Greatness of Wichita State
(01-21-2013 02:23 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  I think VCU will be the discussion point. If you have VCU then many arguments against Wichita State goes away because you already took VCU. Wichita State is much more committed to athletics than St. Louis and for basketball Kansas is a better market.

I don't see it that way at all. VCU would be an addition that would be in close proximity too the 5 eastern members of the C7, while Wichita State would only be close to potentially Creighton. Plus, they have a recent Final Four banner up on the wall. SLU actually has a fairly new arena and the simple fact is that it's geographically closer to the Midwestern portion of the C7 (except for, once again, potentially Creighton). Marquette, DePaul, Dayton and Xavier all have substantial histories with SLU, too. Just because St. Louis is a competitive sports market doesn't mean that much - every single C7 school in a market of any value has a lot of competition. There just aren't commonalities here between Wichita State and the C7 (geography, academics, institutional profile, overwhelming NCAA Tournament resume, etc.), which is why this is such a puzzling discussion from my standpoint. I understand that the WSU promoters are trying to shoehorn themselves into the criteria, but it's just not there.
(This post was last modified: 01-21-2013 02:41 PM by Frank the Tank.)
01-21-2013 02:39 PM
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Post: #40
RE: [split] The Greatness of Wichita State
(01-21-2013 02:39 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I don't see it that way at all. VCU would be an addition that would be in close proximity too the 5 eastern members of the C7, while Wichita State would only be close to potentially Creighton. Plus, they have a recent Final Four banner up on the wall. SLU actually has a fairly new arena and the simple fact is that it's geographically closer to the Midwestern portion of the C7 (except for, once again, potentially Creighton). Marquette, DePaul, Dayton and Xavier all have substantial histories with SLU, too. Just because St. Louis is a competitive sports market doesn't mean that much - every single C7 school in a market of any value has a lot of competition. There just aren't commonalities here between Wichita State and the C7 (geography, academics, institutional profile, overwhelming NCAA Tournament resume, etc.), which is why this is such a puzzling discussion from my standpoint. I understand that the WSU promoters are trying to shoehorn themselves into the criteria, but it's just not there.

I think the misunderstanding is that Wichita State supporters want into the Catholic 7 immediately like a Xavier or Butler. That isn't the case. We understand that we have negatives that prevent us from going to the Catholic 7 at this time.

However, we do feel like our team is good enough to join the league. So instead of asking for immediate consideration, we ask that the league wait. We feel that NCAA success is something that will happen in the next few years, and that the conversation will be different then. If Wichita State goes on a VCU-esque run, they will be in the discussion for the same reason VCU is in the discussion.

In the meantime, I also think that SLU and Dayton need time before possibly joining the league, but for entirely different reasons. Both teams are fits, but would bring the basketball quality down. In a start-up league like the C7 will be, you cannot afford to bring in members that aren't above the average; doing so makes the entire conference lose ground in the eyes of the media.

So I would invite the programs that are fits and/or have very hot programs right now. At a minimum, that would be Xavier, Butler, and Creighton (and possibly VCU). The conference loses nothing from that and gets a lot more freedom to watch and make intelligent decisions on teams that didn't make the first cut.
01-21-2013 03:21 PM
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