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It looks like the League will start in 2014
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Lolly Popp Offline
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Post: #41
RE: It looks like the League will start in 2014
(01-15-2013 06:06 PM)LostInSpace Wrote:  Not posting this to be a jerk, really just an FYI because I'm lifelong Big Five fan... Except for 8 seasons in the 1990s, the Big Five schedule has been single round robin. During most of the 1990s, Villanova played 2 Big Five games annually and the other four teams all played each other annually. When Temple, St. Joe's and/or LaSalle play two conference games in a season, one is desginated prior to the season as the Big Five game.

As for having Temple and UConn play twice next year, it's as good an option as any. You are pretty much bound to make some school(s) unhappy with their mirror no matter how you align teams. My guess is that UConn fans wouldn't like the idea. I'm not sure what Ollie's opinion might be.

Regarding Villanova and the Big Five, as long as Jay Wright is the VU coach, the Big Five will remain full round robin. Embracing the Big Five was one of the first things he did. I have no idea whether he values it as much as he says publicly or the extent to which it was a PR move to mend fences. I suspect it's the former. Regardless, I'm glad he has.

I was trying to keep everything simple, rather than writing a book, and mixed up the details of when the Big Five schedule got all goofy. My point, really, is that Villanova doesn't want to play Temple two times in one season, and making them do so next year will cause unnecessary anger, when there is no need for it. I also don't think Villanova will ever try to pull out of the Big Five again, as the negative PR would be too costly, but there are elements over there who would not shed a tear if it ever went away. My point with UConn and Temple playing twice is to get started with what will be their big rivalry.
01-16-2013 06:25 AM
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NJRedMan Offline
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Post: #42
RE: It looks like the League will start in 2014
(01-16-2013 06:25 AM)Lolly Popp Wrote:  
(01-15-2013 06:06 PM)LostInSpace Wrote:  Not posting this to be a jerk, really just an FYI because I'm lifelong Big Five fan... Except for 8 seasons in the 1990s, the Big Five schedule has been single round robin. During most of the 1990s, Villanova played 2 Big Five games annually and the other four teams all played each other annually. When Temple, St. Joe's and/or LaSalle play two conference games in a season, one is desginated prior to the season as the Big Five game.

As for having Temple and UConn play twice next year, it's as good an option as any. You are pretty much bound to make some school(s) unhappy with their mirror no matter how you align teams. My guess is that UConn fans wouldn't like the idea. I'm not sure what Ollie's opinion might be.

Regarding Villanova and the Big Five, as long as Jay Wright is the VU coach, the Big Five will remain full round robin. Embracing the Big Five was one of the first things he did. I have no idea whether he values it as much as he says publicly or the extent to which it was a PR move to mend fences. I suspect it's the former. Regardless, I'm glad he has.

I was trying to keep everything simple, rather than writing a book, and mixed up the details of when the Big Five schedule got all goofy. My point, really, is that Villanova doesn't want to play Temple two times in one season, and making them do so next year will cause unnecessary anger, when there is no need for it. I also don't think Villanova will ever try to pull out of the Big Five again, as the negative PR would be too costly, but there are elements over there who would not shed a tear if it ever went away. My point with UConn and Temple playing twice is to get started with what will be their big rivalry.

I think you are making a bigger real out them playing twice than it actually is. I don't think they will get to upset over one year.
01-16-2013 06:30 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #43
RE: It looks like the League will start in 2014
(01-16-2013 06:30 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  
(01-16-2013 06:25 AM)Lolly Popp Wrote:  
(01-15-2013 06:06 PM)LostInSpace Wrote:  Not posting this to be a jerk, really just an FYI because I'm lifelong Big Five fan... Except for 8 seasons in the 1990s, the Big Five schedule has been single round robin. During most of the 1990s, Villanova played 2 Big Five games annually and the other four teams all played each other annually. When Temple, St. Joe's and/or LaSalle play two conference games in a season, one is desginated prior to the season as the Big Five game.

As for having Temple and UConn play twice next year, it's as good an option as any. You are pretty much bound to make some school(s) unhappy with their mirror no matter how you align teams. My guess is that UConn fans wouldn't like the idea. I'm not sure what Ollie's opinion might be.

Regarding Villanova and the Big Five, as long as Jay Wright is the VU coach, the Big Five will remain full round robin. Embracing the Big Five was one of the first things he did. I have no idea whether he values it as much as he says publicly or the extent to which it was a PR move to mend fences. I suspect it's the former. Regardless, I'm glad he has.

I was trying to keep everything simple, rather than writing a book, and mixed up the details of when the Big Five schedule got all goofy. My point, really, is that Villanova doesn't want to play Temple two times in one season, and making them do so next year will cause unnecessary anger, when there is no need for it. I also don't think Villanova will ever try to pull out of the Big Five again, as the negative PR would be too costly, but there are elements over there who would not shed a tear if it ever went away. My point with UConn and Temple playing twice is to get started with what will be their big rivalry.

I think you are making a bigger real out them playing twice than it actually is. I don't think they will get to upset over one year.

On the other hand, I think he could say the same.
01-16-2013 06:50 AM
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KnightLight Offline
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Post: #44
RE: It looks like the League will start in 2014
(01-15-2013 03:58 PM)Xumuskie1994 Wrote:  
(01-15-2013 03:42 PM)Bearcat T Wrote:  What a joke Cincinnati! is a Historical Basketball Power Top 25 All Time program...Beat Georgetown about three times last year too on the way to another Sweet Sixteen. Only one of Six schools to have Top 25 in both Sports last year and even less of a number did what UC has done last two years top 25 in both sports two years in a row! Cincy has 45k students and over 1 billion endowment, top 25 campuses in the world by Forbes...and dominated the Cincy market XU is a small private school about 175k endowment with just over 6k students just slightly larger than some of the larger public high schools in Cincy. They have a good base of about 10k fans and that is the limit of their interest in Cincy. It would be a huge boon to actually have both of these teams in the same conference for the new group.

I understand that UC is a large public school and has a huge fan base, but why does Xavier continue to average 10k+ in attendance when UC is lucky to draw 8k? I am curious about your opinion on this. I don't live in Cincinnati and that wasn't the case when I went to X.

Cincinnati's hoop attendance normally takes a big jump up during conf play (normal not-so-enticing non-conf schedule doesn't sell as well as Big East Conf Games).

Last year, Cinci averaged 8,069 in attendance for the entire season but they averaged 10,907 for 9 Big East Conf Games.

Add the fact that Xavier has the newer/smaller arena...plus obviously how Hoops is the #1 sport at Xavier (no football), scarcity of tix also helps push season tix sales...which helps with non-conf game attendance in Nov/Dec too.

Cinci needs a new arena or a major renovation to the Shoe/Bank Arena...and needs a more specific hoop oriented arena vs the multi-purpose type facility which was all the range back in the late 1980's...which is why there are fewer good/lower level seats at the Shoe.

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01-16-2013 10:15 AM
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Title Offline
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Post: #45
RE: It looks like the League will start in 2014
I'm interested in seeing how all this "credits" thing all works out.

There's going to be some finagling from the other side as well. The A10 is going to get 4 or 5 teams in the Tournament and Creighton will as well. Some of those teams are situated to go a number of games.

I'm sure that they'll argue that if there is to be recompensation for lost revenues and fees, that will come into play (not to mention the 1 million exit fee the A10 has)
01-16-2013 11:19 AM
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MUAvalanche Offline
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Post: #46
RE: It looks like the League will start in 2014
(01-16-2013 11:19 AM)Title Wrote:  I'm interested in seeing how all this "credits" thing all works out.

There's going to be some finagling from the other side as well. The A10 is going to get 4 or 5 teams in the Tournament and Creighton will as well. Some of those teams are situated to go a number of games.

I'm sure that they'll argue that if there is to be recompensation for lost revenues and fees, that will come into play (not to mention the 1 million exit fee the A10 has)

Out of curiosity, what was Butler's exit fee requirement from the Horizon League and entry fee requirement into the A-10?
(This post was last modified: 01-16-2013 12:40 PM by MUAvalanche.)
01-16-2013 12:39 PM
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Title Offline
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Post: #47
RE: It looks like the League will start in 2014
I do not know. I think it was probably nominal, maybe a couple hundred k. What was more pertinent about that one is the 18 tournament games they played in the previous 5 years (as well as their share of the other HL teams games)
01-16-2013 01:06 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #48
RE: It looks like the League will start in 2014
for the Units, making the title game doesn't count.. so 16 tourney games...

by my count, they left a whopping 55 units over the next 5 years(remember, didn't make tourney last year). if at 250k, 13.75 million dollars they left....
01-16-2013 01:37 PM
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Title Offline
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Post: #49
RE: It looks like the League will start in 2014
Either way, I think you can probably see my point. Butler nor Xavier is going to be all that forgiving to this concept of recompensation. Given they have left tens of millions themselves + whatever is to happen this year and exit fees.
(This post was last modified: 01-16-2013 02:12 PM by Title.)
01-16-2013 02:11 PM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #50
RE: It looks like the League will start in 2014
(01-16-2013 02:11 PM)Title Wrote:  Either way, I think you can probably see my point. Butler nor Xavier is going to be all that forgiving to this concept of recompensation. Given they have left tens of millions themselves + whatever is to happen this year and exit fees.

It's still a whole different ballgame--paying C-7 back for expenses out of league funds vs. a permanent caste system.
01-16-2013 02:14 PM
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Title Offline
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Post: #51
RE: It looks like the League will start in 2014
The "permanent caste system" thing isn't on the table. Neither school would even join the conference in the first place.

I was talking about "paying back" expenses, when both are/will incur tens of millions in economic "losses" themselves. That's going to be a difficult argument to make, to try to justify it.

Can tell you right now, Fox isn't going to like any stance like that that'll delay proceeding.
(This post was last modified: 01-16-2013 02:21 PM by Title.)
01-16-2013 02:18 PM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #52
RE: It looks like the League will start in 2014
(01-16-2013 02:18 PM)Title Wrote:  The "permanent caste system" thing isn't on the table. Neither school would even join the conference in the first place.

I was talking about "paying back" expenses, when both are/will incur tens of millions in economic "losses" themselves.

I think it depends on the nature of the expenses. Buying the name? I think that benefits Butler. So if the name costs $30M, that's $2.5M per for 12 teams, say $500k per year for 5 years. I don't think any of the other transition expenses would be enough to make much of a dent.

A-10 entrance fee was $700,000 for VCU, probably the same for Butler.
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01-16-2013 02:29 PM
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NJRedMan Offline
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Post: #53
RE: It looks like the League will start in 2014
(01-16-2013 02:18 PM)Title Wrote:  The "permanent caste system" thing isn't on the table. Neither school would even join the conference in the first place.

I was talking about "paying back" expenses, when both are/will incur tens of millions in economic "losses" themselves. That's going to be a difficult argument to make, to try to justify it.

Can tell you right now, Fox isn't going to like any stance like that that'll delay proceeding.

I don't think Fox cares how we handle our own business. I also doubt Butler holds up the deal because of tournament credits. Lots of bigger programs have left or were willing to leave more credits on the table the Bulldogs. Everyone is looking to leave something behind. The C7 could be leaving the BE name. Thats a lot more valuable than credits.
01-16-2013 09:15 PM
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Title Offline
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Post: #54
RE: It looks like the League will start in 2014
I wasn't speaking of tournament credits. I was talking about attempting to justify a lower payout, even for a short period of time, using lost value as rationale (given how much XU and BU has given up and in BU's case will add to that)

But no there's there's not "many". If the number of teams who played 18 games in the last cycle exceeded 5 I'd be surprised
(This post was last modified: 01-16-2013 09:35 PM by Title.)
01-16-2013 09:30 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #55
RE: It looks like the League will start in 2014
(01-16-2013 09:30 PM)Title Wrote:  I wasn't speaking of tournament credits. I was talking about attempting to justify a lower payout, even for a short period of time, using lost value as rationale (given how much XU and BU has given up and in BU's case will add to that)

But no there's there's not "many". If the number of teams who played 18 games in the last cycle exceeded 5 I'd be surprised

here's the thing though- those units are already gone for Butler- staying in the Horizon league. So, that is kind of a moot point already. The units that would remain with the A10 would be 6 times however many they earn this season...
01-17-2013 02:30 AM
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Title Offline
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Post: #56
RE: It looks like the League will start in 2014
I'll grant yo that, if you concede that all costs that are incurred prior to Butler and Xavier joining are incurred by the 7 not the 9.

If the 7 chooses to unilaterally spend money, that is perfectly alright: they should do as the please.

I fail to follow why anyone thinks those costs should be passed on though.

I couldn't care less if the league is called the "Big East", that's really you all honestly.
01-17-2013 10:11 AM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #57
RE: It looks like the League will start in 2014
The question will become, would the schools make more money in TV etc. from having the Big East name. If so, then yes, those costs get passed on thru.
01-17-2013 10:23 AM
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cr8ngrad Offline
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Post: #58
RE: It looks like the League will start in 2014
(01-17-2013 10:11 AM)Title Wrote:  I couldn't care less if the league is called the "Big East", that's really you all honestly.


+1

I am definitely cheering hard for Creighton to be a part of the new league...but ultimately it's the configuration of teams that matters to me...not the name...I agree that concern/desire/obsession (different fans are in different places) is more on the part of the C7 (for obvious and perfectly logical reasons)...especially since you're talking about a new league where almost half (or MORE than half if it ever goes to 14) were never a part of the original Big East
01-17-2013 11:21 AM
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Jet915 Offline
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Post: #59
RE: It looks like the League will start in 2014
I hope that they keep the Big East name and MSG. Big East basketball still has a lot of cache, it's the football that stained the name.
01-17-2013 02:20 PM
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