Thank you for the explanation. I see your point a little more clearly. However, wasn't their a period about 5 years ago when many WSU fans were wanting consideration from CUSA? I believe the fans that I know, certainly were hoping to be included. I also think, despite you saying WSU has little in common with public schools, they DO GET public school money that the privates don't get. That makes a bigger difference than most realize and could be just one of the reasons they are excluded. I just don't see WSU being a non private school in the mix. Now, if VCU joins then perhaps the league looks to add a second public school.

(12-26-2012 12:54 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 12:41 PM)courtjester Wrote:  What does a one-bid league have to do with a catholic / private school league. I just think if WSU wants to jump ship (MVC), CUSA makes more sense than the C7. Most of those schools are public. They stretch across the country a bit more which would expand WSU's recruiting and media reach, and gives C-USA a program that has done well recently. And, as I said, WSU can replace Creighton as a rival with Tulsa, their one time rival in the MVC. Once realignment settles in, perhaps MVC is a better league. But, if Creighton leaves, is the MVC better than the restructured CUSA?

The problem is that you assume "public school" defines Wichita State. It doesn't. Wichita State has very little in common with public schools that primarily exist in college towns.

Instead, Wichita State is an urban school, with a focus on basketball. The central theme of their identity is that they represent the largest urban center in their state, which makes them more diverse and more connected (particularly to the aerospace industry) than other colleges in the area.

The lack of a football program is another part of the school's identity. They don't associate with football-first schools, and the school does not view realignment through a grid-iron lens. C-USA is a football-first conference, with basketball as a distant second, and that alone alienates Wichita State.

Wichita State will not go to a bad basketball conference where their program will rot and be given no recognition because football gets all the attention. They will not try and associate with more traditional public schools that exist in their own isolated worlds (college towns), as they simply do not share the same culture.

Again, the main point is that Wichita State's culture and identity have far more in common with the Catholic 7 than with a conference like C-USA (which is why the Shockers are currently in a league with a large number of private schools/small public schools instead of the C-USA). And the leaders in the Catholic 7 have continually stated that the new league is not going to based solely around private Catholic schools, but instead around basketball, markets, money, and stability.

I'm in the same boat as Jester. Did not mean to come on here to trash Wichita. I just think its nowhere near the program their fans seem to think it is and am sick of reading on here about a school no one is considering. I would have no problem with Butler, Xavier, Creighton, Dayton, VCU or almost any of the other schools being discussed joining. They are quality programs and academic institutions that would be nice fits. You have to draw a line somewhere though and I feel like adding a school and program like Wichita State would dilute the conference.

I think the Valley is a great conference, but when I think of the Valley I think of Creighton and up until recent times Southern Illinois. Wichita is a nice program, but they don't excite me and I know they wouldn't turn any heads at a national level.

I don't like coming across negative like this, but I keep seeing all these posts from Shocker fans about how great they think their program is and that they should be considered. I'm afraid they are in Wichita living in a Black and Gold Bubble unaware of how they are perceived by the rest of the college basketball world.

(12-26-2012 12:42 PM)courtjester Wrote:  My apologies. I just think their history is being overblown and that they are not a candidate at this time for the league.

(12-26-2012 12:36 PM)billyjack Wrote:  I don't think any school should be dismissed from consideration. The MVC has a great history and Wichita State is a major part of it. I'm not a big fan of UNC fans (who have absolutely nothing to do with the new C7 except you helped destroy our old league) coming on here a ripping into any potential C7 school. The nice thing so far about this board (compared to the FB boards) is that we haven't had the continual daily trashing of any schools. It's also been good that (based on the members here) no school under consideration feels entitled to be part of the C7.

Some schools have the inside track (Xavier and Butler). Others will end up getting bonus points for more reasonable geography. It's also good if schools have long histories with current members, like Creighton's old school rivalry with Marquette, DePaul and even PC. The likelihood of Wichita State being invite probably isn't very high, but they shouldn't be trashed on this board.

Yes I agree with the views on Wichita State. Their fans are a little delusional about where they stand in college basketball.

They have a good fan base and nice resources. They are also decidedly in Creighton's shadow to everyone outside of Wichita. They are a nice regional program that have a great commitment to making basketball a priority.

They are very much a geographical outlier and don't have much success at all in the modern era of college basketball. George Mason is actually a better add than WSU, and I don't think Mason has a shot in hell to get in.

I think VCU is absolutely a better and more likely addition as well, but I don't think we'll get the call either. I don't blame their fans for trying to get buzz going about their school however, they will be in very, very bad shape if Creighton leaves so I don't blame them for going to extraordinary lengths to insert themselves in conversations they aren't and won't be seriously a part of.

(12-26-2012 12:41 PM)courtjester Wrote:  What does a one-bid league have to do with a catholic / private school league. I just think if WSU wants to jump ship (MVC), CUSA makes more sense than the C7.

I don't think WSU wants to "jump ship" from the MVC. They would like to upgrade, if possible. The C-7 and Friends would be an upgrade. C-USA wouldn't.

Quote:Most of those schools are public. They stretch across the country a bit more which would expand WSU's recruiting and media reach, and gives C-USA a program that has done well recently. And, as I said, WSU can replace Creighton as a rival with Tulsa, their one time rival in the MVC. Once realignment settles in, perhaps MVC is a better league. But, if Creighton leaves, is the MVC better than the restructured CUSA?

Ok, that's a half-decent case. I don't think it would justify a move, though.

(12-26-2012 08:43 AM)LJay Wrote:  

(12-25-2012 10:23 AM)LJay Wrote:  Welcome to the world of Creighton fans living in the same conference as Shocker fans.

Ah, now we've reached the "angry, let's rip into other people" phase. WSU fans are special.

I'm telling ya, let it go. You can't argue with Wichita fans about their extraordinary opinion about their school.

(12-26-2012 01:05 PM)DemonMan Wrote:  I'm in the same boat as Jester. Did not mean to come on here to trash Wichita. I just think its nowhere near the program their fans seem to think it is and am sick of reading on here about a school no one is considering. I would have no problem with Butler, Xavier, Creighton, Dayton, VCU or almost any of the other schools being discussed joining. They are quality programs and academic institutions that would be nice fits. You have to draw a line somewhere though and I feel like adding a school and program like Wichita State would dilute the conference.

I think the Valley is a great conference, but when I think of the Valley I think of Creighton and up until recent times Southern Illinois. Wichita is a nice program, but they don't excite me and I know they wouldn't turn any heads at a national level.

I don't like coming across negative like this, but I keep seeing all these posts from Shocker fans about how great they think their program is and that they should be considered. I'm afraid they are in Wichita living in a Black and Gold Bubble unaware of how they are perceived by the rest of the college basketball world.

(12-26-2012 12:42 PM)courtjester Wrote:  My apologies. I just think their history is being overblown and that they are not a candidate at this time for the league.

(12-26-2012 12:36 PM)billyjack Wrote:  I don't think any school should be dismissed from consideration. The MVC has a great history and Wichita State is a major part of it. I'm not a big fan of UNC fans (who have absolutely nothing to do with the new C7 except you helped destroy our old league) coming on here a ripping into any potential C7 school. The nice thing so far about this board (compared to the FB boards) is that we haven't had the continual daily trashing of any schools. It's also been good that (based on the members here) no school under consideration feels entitled to be part of the C7.

Some schools have the inside track (Xavier and Butler). Others will end up getting bonus points for more reasonable geography. It's also good if schools have long histories with current members, like Creighton's old school rivalry with Marquette, DePaul and even PC. The likelihood of Wichita State being invite probably isn't very high, but they shouldn't be trashed on this board.

No problem DemonMan.

(12-26-2012 12:47 PM)courtjester Wrote:  I didn't do anything to destroy the Big East. Secondly, I attended Xavier and Marquette, so I believe I have a connection to the league and would love to see it do well. Yes, I root for UNC as well and live in Wichita. Rough life.

(12-26-2012 12:36 PM)billyjack Wrote:  The MVC has a great history and Wichita State is a major part of it. I'm not a big fan of UNC fans (who have absolutely nothing to do with the new C7 except you helped destroy our old league) coming on here a ripping into any potential C7 school.

No problem Jester. Hey, you should add X and Marquette as your favorite teams.

(12-26-2012 12:57 PM)Title Wrote:  The modern era of college basketball began in 1985 with the expansion to the present (modified) bracket of 64.

The unofficial "launch" of the NCAA Tournament as something more than any other college sports championship was in 1979. CBS's Seth Davis actually wrote a book (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/wr...index.html discussing the season and to the other point how he believes that year is what launched the modern era of college basketball.

So, lets just say, sometime between the late 70s and early 80s, college basketball moved from its "dead ball" era into something that is recognizable today.

Its no different than baseball. Things that happened in the distant past need to be examined through a different lens than things in the modern era.

Since 1981, Wichita State has 2 tournament wins in 5 tries. Creighton leaving might be the best thing that has happened to the program in the modern era of college basketball.

I understand that basketball has gone through multiple eras (personally, I'd say we've are in era 4: the pre-racial integration era , racial integrated dead ball era, post dead ball era, and the 1-and-done era). Still, that doesn't mean that success in previous eras means nothing, especially success in multiple eras.

Having traditional success means that the program likely has a variety of fans, including older fans (that typically donate the most). It means that the programs success is more ingrained in the nearby area and that the program's culture is more likely to be sustainable.

I'm not sure what you meant by "Creighton leaving might be the best thing that has happened to the program in the modern era of college basketball."

Were you referring to Creighton departure being good for Creighton? If so, I'd agree, though the point seems obvious.

If you were referring to Creighton's departure being good for Wichita State, please elaborate. I can understand that it would eliminate competition for Wichita State, but it would also force them to win the Valley tournament to ever get a bid into the NCAA, and force Wichita State into a conference where they outspend the closest teams by a 2-1 margin and basically carry the conference in terms of TV revenue and NCAA units. Financially, it will be a disaster for Wichita State regardless of whether or not it would help them reach the tournament.

Please elaborate?

OK, it may create a climate where the school could hope for more than one appearance every 6+ years OR maybe an opportunity to win a tournament at a more robust rate than the 1 every 15+ years.

(12-26-2012 01:47 PM)Title Wrote:  Please elaborate?

OK, it may create a climate where the school could hope for more than one appearance every 6+ years OR maybe an opportunity to win a tournament at a more robust rate than the 1 every 15+ years.

I think climate is far less important than the quality of coach at the school. After the recruiting violations (and Gene Smithson's forced departure), the program was stuck with sub-par coaching from Scott Thompson starting in 1992. Thompson did not produce a winning season.

Then the school hired Mark Turgeon in 1999. After rebuilding period of a couple years, he developed the Shockers into a team that could compete for NCAA berths. After a few short years of competitiveness, he left for Texas A&M.

Finally, the school hired Gregg Marshall. After another rebuilding period (2007-2009), the Shockers have been a team capable of winning an NCAA berth.

So out of the last 30 years, the Shockers have either been struck by the recruiting penalties, rebuilding, or under a bad head coach for around 2/3s of that time. No school would be perennial contenders under those circumstances. When the school has an established coach (eg, Mark Turgeon from 2004-2006, Gregg Marshall now), they are entirely capable of competing for an NCAA berth on any given year.

Yes, I understand that the last 30 years has been an era of frustration for the Shockers. But Creighton hasn't been holding them down; recruiting penalties and bad coaching did the work from 1986 to 1999.

When I referred to the information below, it was like I was crucifying the best program in modern history and a sure bet for the C7. Now, you agree?

(12-26-2012 02:16 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  [quote='Title' pid='8748799' dateline='1356547649']


So out of the last 30 years, the Shockers have either been struck by the recruiting penalties, rebuilding, or under a bad head coach for around 2/3s of that time. No school would be perennial contenders under those circumstances. When the school has an established coach (eg, Mark Turgeon from 2004-2006, Gregg Marshall now), they are entirely capable of competing for an NCAA berth on any given year.

I don't understand this argument. When a program has a good coach, they are good?

Isn't that true for every program? The problem is, Wichita State hasn't been all that good for the majority of the modern college basketball era.

Shocker logic.

(12-26-2012 07:28 PM)VCUfan Wrote:  I don't understand this argument. When a program has a good coach, they are good?

Isn't that true for every program? The problem is, Wichita State hasn't been all that good for the majority of the modern college basketball era.

(12-26-2012 07:28 PM)VCUfan Wrote:  I don't understand this argument. When a program has a good coach, they are good?

Isn't that true for every program? The problem is, Wichita State hasn't been all that good for the majority of the modern college basketball era.

Wichita State has been good in multiple eras with at least 4 different good coaches. The problem is timing.

By the definition of the modern era, Wichita State was in a down period from the beginning because of earlier recruiting violations. Then they hired the worst coach in school history, setting them back another 10 years.

Add another 6-8 years of early rebuilding during Marshall and Turgeon's tenures, and you've effectively wasted a majority of the modern era.

But the investment and potential were always there. The school continued to have relatively high attendance during its down period, and almost instantly rebounded with a good coach. And unlike other schools, Wichita State's success has occurred under at least 4 different coaches (5 different MVC CoYs) in a variety of different eras.

And right now, in the present, Wichita State has shown no signs of going into another down period. They should get an at-large berth with a decent showing in their conference, and continue to improve from year to year.

Again, I have stated multiple times that Wichita State should not be in the first expansion of C7. I think the only schools with a solid enough record right now are Xavier, Butler, and VCU (potentially Gonzaga if travel costs are not prohibitive).

What I've been arguing for is that if Wichita State continues performing like they have the last 3 years, and perhaps goes to the Elite 8 or farther, they should be considered in Round 2, along with other expansion candidates. Essentially, let the basketball speak for itself.

I don't disagree with that.

Wichita State's facilities, fan base, and resources are top notch. Their success just hasn't matched it yet. If you all make some deep runs the next couple of years I agree that they should get a look although the geography is still a bit unwieldy. That is if publics truly are being considered here.

I tried playing with my profile, but couldn't figure out how to modify "who I root for".....any ideas or help?

(12-26-2012 01:19 PM)billyjack Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 12:47 PM)courtjester Wrote:  I didn't do anything to destroy the Big East. Secondly, I attended Xavier and Marquette, so I believe I have a connection to the league and would love to see it do well. Yes, I root for UNC as well and live in Wichita. Rough life.

(12-26-2012 12:36 PM)billyjack Wrote:  The MVC has a great history and Wichita State is a major part of it. I'm not a big fan of UNC fans (who have absolutely nothing to do with the new C7 except you helped destroy our old league) coming on here a ripping into any potential C7 school.

No problem Jester. Hey, you should add X and Marquette as your favorite teams.

(12-27-2012 09:27 PM)courtjester Wrote:  I tried playing with my profile, but couldn't figure out how to modify "who I root for".....any ideas or help?

Not sure if this is sarcasm but if you want to modify it.

1. Go to "User CP"
- its on top under (User CP - Log Out)
2. Click on "Edit Profile"
- it's on the left under the Your Profile section
3. Enter your schools in the box under "I Root for:"


I probably could have just messaged you this but maybe someone else might want this help as well. I thought you cheered for all things North Carolina-made me wonder why you were on this board.

I do root for UNC, but I also attended Marquette and Xavier, and partly because I'm Catholic, I've always longed for a Catholic led league to reunite the old rivalries.....and yes, my post was sincere. I tried playing with it, but couldn't discover how to modify my information. Thanks for the help!

(12-27-2012 09:37 PM)ivet Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 09:27 PM)courtjester Wrote:  I tried playing with my profile, but couldn't figure out how to modify "who I root for".....any ideas or help?

Not sure if this is sarcasm but if you want to modify it.

1. Go to "User CP"
- its on top under (User CP - Log Out)
2. Click on "Edit Profile"
- it's on the left under the Your Profile section
3. Enter your schools in the box under "I Root for:"


I probably could have just messaged you this but maybe someone else might want this help as well. I thought you cheered for all things North Carolina-made me wonder why you were on this board.

(12-26-2012 12:58 AM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(12-25-2012 05:34 PM)courtjester Wrote:  Good for the past 60 yrs? Prior to this recent run, they had only won 5 conference titles since 1963. Their best run, during the early 80's, they were put on probation for recruiting violations...among other things. They haven't had an all american since 1985. In the last 50 yrs, they are 812-650, with 21 of those years at .500 or worse. If you take away the last four years of Smithson's probation run, they only have won 54% of their games over the past 50 years. They have 9 tournament appearance in over 60 years and if you take away their probation years (early 80's), they are 5-9 in the tourney, including 4 first round exits in those appearances. I think the term "good" is being used loosely here.

How about the Final Four run? The three Elite 8s (find another expansion candidate with that number; I'll wait)? The loss to the eventual national runner-up by 1 point in 1976? Sweet 16 appearances in 3 decades?

As far as successful players, to represent the Shockers, let's start back a fair ways in history. The first player west of the Mississippi to get 2,000 points in a season was Cleo Littleton in the 40s. Next you have Dave Stallworth, who averaged a career 24.2 PPG and was a consensus All-American. Terry Benton, who averaged 16.8 RPG for his career. Xavier McDaniels, the first player to lead the nation in scoring and rebounding (still not enough to get PoY though) with 27.2 PPG and 14.8 RPG. Wichita State has had its fair share of great players.

And yes, they had recruiting violations. The best Shocker team that had been ever been assembled did not go to the NIT or NCAA, and that probably cost Wichita State two appearances and most likely a shot at the Sweet 16 or higher.

And, to be blatantly honest, many of the golden candidates right now fair worse looking back than Wichita State. Butler, for instance, has 56.4% winning record over the last 50 years (836-1480). They went 17 years before winning a title in the Horizon League, and yet people seem to have no qualms with adding them. VCU hasn't even had a basketball program for 50 years, and hadn't advanced beyond the second round of the NCAA tournament until last year. Saint Louis has won around 52% of its games since 1965 and hasn't advanced past the second round in 55 years.

Again, if you look at the peaks of the program and current success, it stands with any other expansion candidate. The program currently has an RPI higher than any school in the Big East, with a win over the second highest rated expansion candidate (also ranked higher than any Big East school). They have gone as far as the Final Four, have more Elite 8s than any other expansion candidate, and they've been to the Sweet 16 more recently than Creighton (1974), Dayton (1984), Saint Louis (1957), or for that matter, DePaul, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Providence. And they are willing to invest whatever is necessary to compete.

If you want to disqualify them for certain reasons, that is fine. If the geography is too much of a factor, take Creighton, Saint Louis, Gonzaga, and Saint Mary's off your list. If their recent success is too much of a problem, take Creighton, Dayton, and Saint Louis off your list (along with exiling half the current C7). If past success is too much of a problem, then you are going to have to take off VCU, Butler, Gonzaga, Dayton, and Saint Louis.

Essentially, the only school that doesn't have any of those problems is Xavier, who should be an automatic add to the conference (along with Butler). Everyone else has flaws just as severe as Wichita State, which just happens to have more investment in it's program than most of its competition and a better team right now. Again, you can disqualify them for reasons of geography or the nature of the university, but they are absolutely in the mix from a basketball prospective.

The best outcome for Wichita State (and Gonzaga for that matter) is the MWC expands and adds them as basketball only to balance out 7 or 9 team football adds. Assuming Boise BYU and SDSU return and we add Tulsa and UTEP, Wichita State fits in nicely.

Tulsa/Wichita State
New Mexico/ UTEP
Colorado State/Wyoming
Air Force/BYU

SDSU/UNLV
Fresno/SJSU
Boise/Utah State
Gonzaga/Hawaii Replacement

In addition Wichita State is a baseball school whose baseball would be lost in the C7. Adding your baseball to teams like New Mexico and Fresno in the MWC would be a big plus.

CBB fan, you keep talking about recent success and winning %. Do they have equal to or slightly better success than Saint Louis, Butler, etc. Perhaps, depending on what numbers you emphasize. However, my point is that their numbers are not so much greater than the others mentioned that you can overlook WSU's public school, small market identification. I'm assuming the league won't pick members based on the last 5 years or so, and WSU success before that is irrelevant. Tournament basketball was much different then. If I am so wrong, and you are so right, we would be hearing how WSU is a slam dunk invite for the league already.

(12-29-2012 11:38 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 12:58 AM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(12-25-2012 05:34 PM)courtjester Wrote:  Good for the past 60 yrs? Prior to this recent run, they had only won 5 conference titles since 1963. Their best run, during the early 80's, they were put on probation for recruiting violations...among other things. They haven't had an all american since 1985. In the last 50 yrs, they are 812-650, with 21 of those years at .500 or worse. If you take away the last four years of Smithson's probation run, they only have won 54% of their games over the past 50 years. They have 9 tournament appearance in over 60 years and if you take away their probation years (early 80's), they are 5-9 in the tourney, including 4 first round exits in those appearances. I think the term "good" is being used loosely here.

How about the Final Four run? The three Elite 8s (find another expansion candidate with that number; I'll wait)? The loss to the eventual national runner-up by 1 point in 1976? Sweet 16 appearances in 3 decades?

As far as successful players, to represent the Shockers, let's start back a fair ways in history. The first player west of the Mississippi to get 2,000 points in a season was Cleo Littleton in the 40s. Next you have Dave Stallworth, who averaged a career 24.2 PPG and was a consensus All-American. Terry Benton, who averaged 16.8 RPG for his career. Xavier McDaniels, the first player to lead the nation in scoring and rebounding (still not enough to get PoY though) with 27.2 PPG and 14.8 RPG. Wichita State has had its fair share of great players.

And yes, they had recruiting violations. The best Shocker team that had been ever been assembled did not go to the NIT or NCAA, and that probably cost Wichita State two appearances and most likely a shot at the Sweet 16 or higher.

And, to be blatantly honest, many of the golden candidates right now fair worse looking back than Wichita State. Butler, for instance, has 56.4% winning record over the last 50 years (836-1480). They went 17 years before winning a title in the Horizon League, and yet people seem to have no qualms with adding them. VCU hasn't even had a basketball program for 50 years, and hadn't advanced beyond the second round of the NCAA tournament until last year. Saint Louis has won around 52% of its games since 1965 and hasn't advanced past the second round in 55 years.

Again, if you look at the peaks of the program and current success, it stands with any other expansion candidate. The program currently has an RPI higher than any school in the Big East, with a win over the second highest rated expansion candidate (also ranked higher than any Big East school). They have gone as far as the Final Four, have more Elite 8s than any other expansion candidate, and they've been to the Sweet 16 more recently than Creighton (1974), Dayton (1984), Saint Louis (1957), or for that matter, DePaul, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Providence. And they are willing to invest whatever is necessary to compete.

If you want to disqualify them for certain reasons, that is fine. If the geography is too much of a factor, take Creighton, Saint Louis, Gonzaga, and Saint Mary's off your list. If their recent success is too much of a problem, take Creighton, Dayton, and Saint Louis off your list (along with exiling half the current C7). If past success is too much of a problem, then you are going to have to take off VCU, Butler, Gonzaga, Dayton, and Saint Louis.

Essentially, the only school that doesn't have any of those problems is Xavier, who should be an automatic add to the conference (along with Butler). Everyone else has flaws just as severe as Wichita State, which just happens to have more investment in it's program than most of its competition and a better team right now. Again, you can disqualify them for reasons of geography or the nature of the university, but they are absolutely in the mix from a basketball prospective.

The best outcome for Wichita State (and Gonzaga for that matter) is the MWC expands and adds them as basketball only to balance out 7 or 9 team football adds. Assuming Boise BYU and SDSU return and we add Tulsa and UTEP, Wichita State fits in nicely.

Tulsa/Wichita State
New Mexico/ UTEP
Colorado State/Wyoming
Air Force/BYU

SDSU/UNLV
Fresno/SJSU
Boise/Utah State
Gonzaga/Hawaii Replacement

In addition Wichita State is a baseball school whose baseball would be lost in the C7. Adding your baseball to teams like New Mexico and Fresno in the MWC would be a big plus.