(01-02-2013 04:09 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(01-02-2013 03:48 PM)nathanhm Wrote:  Yeah I don't think divisions make sense unless we have 12 teams and Gonzaga. If the furthest west we go is Creighton, divisions make ZERO sense.

Well they make sense in that you maximize the number of rivalry games and speed up the process of getting the mid-western schools up to speed on said rivalries.

GTown vs Nova twice a year, same goes for Marq & Butler, Creighton & Xavier etc...twice a year. You also essentially have your schedule set in stone for every year moving forward.

This all makes a lot of sense to me and I think encouraging "regional rivalry games" is a great way to preserve traditional C-7 rivalries while also trying to create rivalries among new members.

That said, the old Big East didn't seem to care much about regional rivalries, schedule balance, etc. My recollection (as a Notre Dame grad/fan) was that every team played every other team once and additional conference games were designed to create the best television matchups. This created a situation where the top teams in the league had significantly harder conference schedules than the bottom teams in the league - almost every year. It also devalued the regular season conference championship and rendered conference standings almost totally irrelevant in the eyes of the Selection Committee.

I fear that the new conference could go that direction in order to increase television revenues.

(01-02-2013 04:16 PM)nathanhm Wrote:  

(01-02-2013 04:09 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(01-02-2013 03:48 PM)nathanhm Wrote:  Yeah I don't think divisions make sense unless we have 12 teams and Gonzaga. If the furthest west we go is Creighton, divisions make ZERO sense.

Well they make sense in that you maximize the number of rivalry games and speed up the process of getting the mid-western schools up to speed on said rivalries.

GTown vs Nova twice a year, same goes for Marq & Butler, Creighton & Xavier etc...twice a year. You also essentially have your schedule set in stone for every year moving forward.

But then you risk never developing any solid east/mid-west rivalries.

Georgetown / Marquette is already a good rivalry and that would be impacted.

From a Georgetown perspective I could see Xavier becoming a good rivalry too.

Well they would still play every year, but the H/H series would be for regional rivals. You still play Marquette and Xavier but now its just once a year. If we don't do divisions then most years you will only play them once anyway.

(01-02-2013 04:46 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(01-02-2013 04:16 PM)nathanhm Wrote:  

(01-02-2013 04:09 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(01-02-2013 03:48 PM)nathanhm Wrote:  Yeah I don't think divisions make sense unless we have 12 teams and Gonzaga. If the furthest west we go is Creighton, divisions make ZERO sense.

Well they make sense in that you maximize the number of rivalry games and speed up the process of getting the mid-western schools up to speed on said rivalries.

GTown vs Nova twice a year, same goes for Marq & Butler, Creighton & Xavier etc...twice a year. You also essentially have your schedule set in stone for every year moving forward.

But then you risk never developing any solid east/mid-west rivalries.

Georgetown / Marquette is already a good rivalry and that would be impacted.

From a Georgetown perspective I could see Xavier becoming a good rivalry too.

Well they would still play every year, but the H/H series would be for regional rivals. You still play Marquette and Xavier but now its just once a year. If we don't do divisions then most years you will only play them once anyway.

If you aren't wed to limiting H/H with regional rivals, then you could base H/H each season on which games would be the biggest draws. If Villanova and Butler are the top two teams in the league, why wouldn't we want to see that matchup twice?

Big games sell the league. People may have complained the old Big East "punished" the best teams with brutal schedules, but they always ended up as a 1,2,or 3 seed and got ESPN/CBS all hyped up with 2 big matchups each season.

From a geography perspective, Marquette isn't so far from Providence that we should be concerned about limiting travel to once every other year.

Thats why I only want to see divisions if we add Gonzaga and then we still need to leave some flexibility for at least 1 or 2 H/H with teams in the other division for TV purposes.

(01-02-2013 03:34 PM)JPSchmack Wrote:  You don't need (or want) divisions... You do one division and pick your home/home opponents based on TV games to get the most TV money.

You don't need the 12th team to be VCU (or Richmond) JUST BECAUSE they are in the East and it provides balance.

If you had a 10-team league, you have a 5/5 split between East/West. With a double-round robin (or single in some sports) there's going to be a East/West travel pair. Like SLU-Providence (if it's Butler/SLU/Xavier for 10) or Xavier-Prov/GTown (if its XU/BU/CREI for 10).

So what does it matter if you go to 12 and have 7 in the west and 5 in the east? If you feel VCU is a better pick than Creighton, fine; but if you think Creighton is better than VCU, don't let geography be the deciding factor.

I don't think the current BE had divisions in any sport except men's & women's soccer. Everything else was one division, and it should be the same in the new conference.

I prefer limiting the conference to 10 so that the rivalries develop. But if the new conference ends up at 12, I don't see the need for divisions, especially with an 18 game schedule.

(01-02-2013 05:20 PM)MUAvalanche Wrote:  

(01-02-2013 03:34 PM)JPSchmack Wrote:  You don't need (or want) divisions... You do one division and pick your home/home opponents based on TV games to get the most TV money.

You don't need the 12th team to be VCU (or Richmond) JUST BECAUSE they are in the East and it provides balance.

If you had a 10-team league, you have a 5/5 split between East/West. With a double-round robin (or single in some sports) there's going to be a East/West travel pair. Like SLU-Providence (if it's Butler/SLU/Xavier for 10) or Xavier-Prov/GTown (if its XU/BU/CREI for 10).

So what does it matter if you go to 12 and have 7 in the west and 5 in the east? If you feel VCU is a better pick than Creighton, fine; but if you think Creighton is better than VCU, don't let geography be the deciding factor.

I don't think the current BE had divisions in any sport except men's & women's soccer. Everything else was one division, and it should be the same in the new conference.

I prefer limiting the conference to 10 so that the rivalries develop. But if the new conference ends up at 12, I don't see the need for divisions, especially with an 18 game schedule.

I agree about 10, but apparently the TV advisors are suggesting 12. Fortunately, there are enough good candidates to get there without watering down significantly. I also agree that divisions in basketball are not necessary.

(01-02-2013 05:01 PM)nathanhm Wrote:  

(01-02-2013 04:46 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(01-02-2013 04:16 PM)nathanhm Wrote:  

(01-02-2013 04:09 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(01-02-2013 03:48 PM)nathanhm Wrote:  Yeah I don't think divisions make sense unless we have 12 teams and Gonzaga. If the furthest west we go is Creighton, divisions make ZERO sense.

Well they make sense in that you maximize the number of rivalry games and speed up the process of getting the mid-western schools up to speed on said rivalries.

GTown vs Nova twice a year, same goes for Marq & Butler, Creighton & Xavier etc...twice a year. You also essentially have your schedule set in stone for every year moving forward.

But then you risk never developing any solid east/mid-west rivalries.

Georgetown / Marquette is already a good rivalry and that would be impacted.

From a Georgetown perspective I could see Xavier becoming a good rivalry too.

Well they would still play every year, but the H/H series would be for regional rivals. You still play Marquette and Xavier but now its just once a year. If we don't do divisions then most years you will only play them once anyway.

If you aren't wed to limiting H/H with regional rivals, then you could base H/H each season on which games would be the biggest draws. If Villanova and Butler are the top two teams in the league, why wouldn't we want to see that matchup twice?

Big games sell the league. People may have complained the old Big East "punished" the best teams with brutal schedules, but they always ended up as a 1,2,or 3 seed and got ESPN/CBS all hyped up with 2 big matchups each season.

From a geography perspective, Marquette isn't so far from Providence that we should be concerned about limiting travel to once every other year.

Thats why I only want to see divisions if we add Gonzaga and then we still need to leave some flexibility for at least 1 or 2 H/H with teams in the other division for TV purposes.

Draws have more basis than just the numbers next to a teams name. Schools who have bad blood and history with each other draw more attention even when neither is ranked.

40% of the league will be new to not just the C7 but to each other as well. We can have schools from 4 different leagues joining up (Yes Butler is in the A-10 now but not long enough to have formed any real relationships.) who have very little history with one another. In order to acclimate them and speed up the rivalries that are just waiting to be born they need to play as much as possible.

The problem with making the schedule based on how good teams are SUPPOSED to be is when those teams aren't as good as previously thought. Either through injuries or lack of cohesion or whatever. You have H/H series like Butler/Marq, Xavier/Creighton, Butler/Xavier, Marq Creighton, Marq/Xavier and Butler/Creighton. Thats just in the mid-western division.

(01-02-2013 04:09 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Well they make sense in that you maximize the number of rivalry games and speed up the process of getting the mid-western schools up to speed on said rivalries.

GTown vs Nova twice a year, same goes for Marq & Butler, Creighton & Xavier etc...twice a year. You also essentially have your schedule set in stone for every year moving forward.

Yeah, but it works both ways. You're also setting in stone home/home series every year between VCU and Providence vs St. John's, G-Town, Nova and Hall

Without divisions, you'd still have GTown/Nova twice, Marquette/Butler twice, Creighton/Xavier twice (because that's just common sense; those are marquee games, why wouldn't you have those twice?)

But you'd also have the ability to say "second G-Town/Marquette and VCU/Butler games is better TV inventory than Providence/VCU and Butler/Dayton a second time.

There's absolutely no one that would make a 12-team, one-division schedule and not have those obvious rivalry games every year; but you'd have the ability to double-up on non-obvious ones.

Some rivalries will emerge beyond geography based on who's competing for the title (like Gonzaga/Saint Mary's for example), or games being intense/chippy

(01-02-2013 06:11 PM)JPSchmack Wrote:  

(01-02-2013 04:09 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Well they make sense in that you maximize the number of rivalry games and speed up the process of getting the mid-western schools up to speed on said rivalries.

GTown vs Nova twice a year, same goes for Marq & Butler, Creighton & Xavier etc...twice a year. You also essentially have your schedule set in stone for every year moving forward.

Yeah, but it works both ways. You're also setting in stone home/home series every year between VCU and Providence vs St. John's, G-Town, Nova and Hall

Without divisions, you'd still have GTown/Nova twice, Marquette/Butler twice, Creighton/Xavier twice (because that's just common sense; those are marquee games, why wouldn't you have those twice?)

But you'd also have the ability to say "second G-Town/Marquette and VCU/Butler games is better TV inventory than Providence/VCU and Butler/Dayton a second time.

There's absolutely no one that would make a 12-team, one-division schedule and not have those obvious rivalry games every year; but you'd have the ability to double-up on non-obvious ones.

Some rivalries will emerge beyond geography based on who's competing for the title (like Gonzaga/Saint Mary's for example), or games being intense/chippy

Why would Seton Hall, Providence, SJU, DePaul or Dayton/St. Louis agree to this?

(01-02-2013 05:20 PM)MUAvalanche Wrote:  I prefer limiting the conference to 10 so that the rivalries develop. But if the new conference ends up at 12, I don't see the need for divisions, especially with an 18 game schedule.

I don't think that will be an issue. With 12 teams, you're playing five schools twice per year (plus the conference tournament).

Everyone comes with rivalries built in:
The five long-time BE schools have been playing each other since 1979-82.
Marquette-DePaul have been in the same conference for about as long.
Marquette/DePaul vs the BE5 for the last seven years.
Xavier, Butler, DePaul and Marquette would be renewing old rivalries from the MCC days. Butler/Xavier have been playing the last few years pretty frequently.
Xavier-Dayton obviously have met like 140+ times.
UD and Xavier were playing SLU were playing each other twice a year most years since 2006.

The two teams without strong rivalries are VCU and Creighton.
Creighton's played Xavier a half-dozen times over the past decade.
VCU vs GTown and Butler would be good ones to start. Creighton vs SLU, Butler and Marquette.

However, that's 13 teams. You're not taking all four of VCU/Creighton/Dayton/Saint Louis, you're only taking three. (or take all four and add St. Bonaventure! I don't want my alma mater left behind! I know that's unrealistic though. If only I had T. Boone Pickens money, I'd make it happen)

(01-02-2013 06:16 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Why would Seton Hall, Providence, SJU, DePaul or Dayton/St. Louis agree to this?

What do you mean?

Long answer:
#1 - UD/SLU will agree to anything. They just want the invite.

#2 - What have they all agreed to before? Letting TV dictate the second-matchups. The new league would have more rivalry H/H series than their old conference formats. Everyone's going to get MOST of the games they'd want twice. It's a step in the right direction compared to what they had.

#3 - Everyone realizes that the ideal situation of a true double-round robin, fair and balanced schedule takes a backseat to the TV negotiations, which is why they all sacrificed that numerous times in conference realignment/expansion. So...

Short answer: Money.


What TV would want, and what each school would want would be VERY similar. There'd be a few minor exceptions. The point is, the CONFERENCE would control those exceptions, and not the MAP of where schools are located.

Look, this isn't a situtuation where St. John's is going to be playing Creighton, DePaul, Dayton, Saint Louis and Xavier twice and not Georgetown, Nova, Hall, Providence twice. They'd be playing five teams twice. You'd probably start with saying "Ok, the BE5 play each other H/H... now what?" and make slight adjustments. Providence might lose a second game with ONE of those guys each year. But they also wouldn't have VCU a second time set in stone every year. They might get DePaul or Xavier instead.

(01-02-2013 06:27 PM)JPSchmack Wrote:  

(01-02-2013 06:16 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Why would Seton Hall, Providence, SJU, DePaul or Dayton/St. Louis agree to this?

What do you mean?

Long answer:
#1 - UD/SLU will agree to anything. They just want the invite.

#2 - What have they all agreed to before? Letting TV dictate the second-matchups. The new league would have more rivalry H/H series than their old conference formats. Everyone's going to get MOST of the games they'd want twice. It's a step in the right direction compared to what they had.

#3 - Everyone realizes that the ideal situation of a true double-round robin, fair and balanced schedule takes a backseat to the TV negotiations, which is why they all sacrificed that numerous times in conference realignment/expansion. So...

Short answer: Money.


What TV would want, and what each school would want would be VERY similar. There'd be a few minor exceptions. The point is, the CONFERENCE would control those exceptions, and not the MAP of where schools are located.

Look, this isn't a situtuation where St. John's is going to be playing Creighton, DePaul, Dayton, Saint Louis and Xavier twice and not Georgetown, Nova, Hall, Providence twice. They'd be playing five teams twice. You'd probably start with saying "Ok, the BE5 play each other H/H... now what?" and make slight adjustments. Providence might lose a second game with ONE of those guys each year. But they also wouldn't have VCU a second time set in stone every year. They might get DePaul or Xavier instead.

If we leave the H/H series to whats TV friendly then the teams at the bottom of the conference will never get a H/H with the teams at the top.

(01-02-2013 06:22 PM)JPSchmack Wrote:  

(01-02-2013 05:20 PM)MUAvalanche Wrote:  I prefer limiting the conference to 10 so that the rivalries develop. But if the new conference ends up at 12, I don't see the need for divisions, especially with an 18 game schedule.

I don't think that will be an issue. With 12 teams, you're playing five schools twice per year (plus the conference tournament).

Everyone comes with rivalries built in:
The five long-time BE schools have been playing each other since 1979-82.
Marquette-DePaul have been in the same conference for about as long.
Marquette/DePaul vs the BE5 for the last seven years.
Xavier, Butler, DePaul and Marquette would be renewing old rivalries from the MCC days. Butler/Xavier have been playing the last few years pretty frequently.
Xavier-Dayton obviously have met like 140+ times.
UD and Xavier were playing SLU were playing each other twice a year most years since 2006.

The two teams without strong rivalries are VCU and Creighton.
Creighton's played Xavier a half-dozen times over the past decade.
VCU vs GTown and Butler would be good ones to start. Creighton vs SLU, Butler and Marquette.

However, that's 13 teams. You're not taking all four of VCU/Creighton/Dayton/Saint Louis, you're only taking three. (or take all four and add St. Bonaventure! I don't want my alma mater left behind! I know that's unrealistic though. If only I had T. Boone Pickens money, I'd make it happen)

There is basketball played outside of the Mid-Atlantic region. You guys should get out more often...

Creighton definitely has history versus Marquette, SLU, and DePaul.
The Xavier and Dayton series are more recent...

Creighton v Marquette 76 games
CU v St Louis 33 games
CU v DePaul 22 games

CU v Xavier 15 games
CU vs Dayton 11 games
CU v Prov 10 games
CU v St Johns 7 games
CU v Seton Hall 7 games
CU v Butler 7 games
CU v Nova 3 games
CU v Gtwn 1 (w) game
CU v VCU nada

others mentioned...

CU vs Gonzaga 8 games
CU v Duquesne 8 games
CU v St Bonaventure 7 games

*All from the Creighton 2012-13 Media Guide...

(01-02-2013 07:16 PM)gtmoBlue Wrote:  

(01-02-2013 06:22 PM)JPSchmack Wrote:  

(01-02-2013 05:20 PM)MUAvalanche Wrote:  I prefer limiting the conference to 10 so that the rivalries develop. But if the new conference ends up at 12, I don't see the need for divisions, especially with an 18 game schedule.

I don't think that will be an issue. With 12 teams, you're playing five schools twice per year (plus the conference tournament).

Everyone comes with rivalries built in:
The five long-time BE schools have been playing each other since 1979-82.
Marquette-DePaul have been in the same conference for about as long.
Marquette/DePaul vs the BE5 for the last seven years.
Xavier, Butler, DePaul and Marquette would be renewing old rivalries from the MCC days. Butler/Xavier have been playing the last few years pretty frequently.
Xavier-Dayton obviously have met like 140+ times.
UD and Xavier were playing SLU were playing each other twice a year most years since 2006.

The two teams without strong rivalries are VCU and Creighton.
Creighton's played Xavier a half-dozen times over the past decade.
VCU vs GTown and Butler would be good ones to start. Creighton vs SLU, Butler and Marquette.

However, that's 13 teams. You're not taking all four of VCU/Creighton/Dayton/Saint Louis, you're only taking three. (or take all four and add St. Bonaventure! I don't want my alma mater left behind! I know that's unrealistic though. If only I had T. Boone Pickens money, I'd make it happen)

There is basketball played outside of the Mid-Atlantic region. You guys should get out more often...

Creighton definitely has history versus Marquette, SLU, and DePaul.
The Xavier and Dayton series are more recent...

Creighton v Marquette 76 games
CU v St Louis 33 games
CU v DePaul 22 games
CU vs Dayton 11 games
CU v X 15 games
CU v Butler 7 games
CU Gtwn 1 (w) game
CU Nova 3 games
CU v St Johns 7 games
CU v Seton Hall 7 games
CU v Prov 10 games
CU v VCU nada

others mentioned...
CU vs Gonzaga 8 games
CU v Duquesne 8 games
CU v St Bonaventure 7 games

How many of those games were played recently and how many are from many many years ago?

(01-02-2013 06:51 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  If we leave the H/H series to whats TV friendly then the teams at the bottom of the conference will never get a H/H with the teams at the top.

I think you're looking at an extreme view of what I'm suggesting. I don't mean The top six play each other H/H and the bottom six play each other H/H.

The rivalry games and the TV games are going to be pretty close to the same thing.

Let's say you've got the C7 plus Xavier, Dayton, SLU, Butler and VCU.

You don't automatically put VCU H/H vs SHU, Nova, GTown, Prov, SJU every year because of the map. You DO put SHU, Nova, GTown, Prov, SJU vs each other H/H every year because it's common sense.

But VCU vs Butler would be a better TV game than VCU-Hall, so you schedule that one instead.

Marquette, Xavier, Butler playing extra games vs SJU, Nova, GTown is what you want for TV. But you don't do that at the expense of Hall-SJU twice, or Nova-GTown twice, or Xavier-Dayton twice. You do it at the expense of H/H between two schools who aren't really rivals and never have been.

You could set 3-4 opponents that are ALWAYS H/H each year and rotate the other 1-2 based on good TV games.

You leave yourself the option to schedule more good TV games, but you'd be basing the schedule off of those geographic rivalries.


Take a look at what the Big XII did when they had 12 teams. They dumped the divisions because Kansas vs Texas would only meet once and that's a good TV game.

They didn't abandon Kansas vs K-State twice; or Texas vs Baylor twice. They just traded second matchups like Colorado vs Kansas for a second Texas vs Kansas matchup. Or OK State vs Texas Tech of OK St vs Kansas St. It's subtle changes, not drastic ones.

Just to alleviate some of these "rivalries" issues, Xavier and Butler have been playing for the past 4 seasons, and every one has been hotly contested.

It has definitely evolved into an OOC rivalry, and it looks to be building up even more.

In terms of Xavier rivalries, I think most fans would say:
1. Cincinnati
2. Dayton
3. Butler