(12-03-2012 12:29 PM)uab278 Wrote:  The problem lies with the pro ranks IMO. The game is too fast and everyone is freaky strong in the NFL. I looked at the study and I felt like they did not necessarily look at a good control population; however, to get permission to dissect someone's brain is not easy. It would be interesting if they did a much larger scale study that enrolled people's brain strictly on specific sport participation. The highschooler brains that showed damage were from either freak accidents on the football field or suicide cases. I would be interested in seeing the overall trend as you can pick and choose cases sometimes to get your statistics right.

Maybe the problem partly lies with the pro game itself and partly with the compound effect of accumulating years of playing football. Maybe most of the players can avoid brain damage if they stop after high school; and a few less can avoid it by stopping after university (which is when most players stop).

I would imagine that it is hopefully a combination of both. Hopefully, because you will eliminate 99.9% of the cases by virtue of so few players making the league. With the game getting faster, with so few improvements to headgear, it seems inevitable to see this becoming an epidemic with pro players.

The other issue is cultural. They have come out with helmets that are much bigger than the present ones and none of the players want to wear them. Maybe the solution is creating a super helmet.

(12-03-2012 12:14 PM)99Tiger Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 10:24 AM)Phillip26r Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 10:19 AM)fsquid Wrote:  get rid of the helmets

That or go back to one you fold and put in your pocket.

Yeah, that post gets made every so often...and it's as much garbage now as it was the first time I saw it. Concussions were still happening, just going unreported.

sure they were still happening, but no using the helmet as a weapon.

Football ain't going anywhere. Football at all levels will just continue to add rules that limit head contact and enforce them more and more with harsher penalties until it is no longer an issue. Eventually you'll see players being thrown out of the league for any helmet to helmet contact. I think the game will be mostly the same, but refs will get extremely picky and penalties will get more severe. People will learn and once the me culture is in place for long enough to indoctrinate players from an early age the problem will be gone.

(12-03-2012 12:37 PM)fsquid Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 12:14 PM)99Tiger Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 10:24 AM)Phillip26r Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 10:19 AM)fsquid Wrote:  get rid of the helmets

That or go back to one you fold and put in your pocket.

Yeah, that post gets made every so often...and it's as much garbage now as it was the first time I saw it. Concussions were still happening, just going unreported.

sure they were still happening, but no using the helmet as a weapon.

And no helmet to protect your head from collisions with the ground or opposing players while being tackled.

Reverting to leather helmets is still a sorry idea.

rugby seems to handle these things ok.

(12-03-2012 01:22 PM)99Tiger Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 12:37 PM)fsquid Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 12:14 PM)99Tiger Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 10:24 AM)Phillip26r Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 10:19 AM)fsquid Wrote:  get rid of the helmets

That or go back to one you fold and put in your pocket.

Yeah, that post gets made every so often...and it's as much garbage now as it was the first time I saw it. Concussions were still happening, just going unreported.

sure they were still happening, but no using the helmet as a weapon.

And no helmet to protect your head from collisions with the ground or opposing players while being tackled.

Reverting to leather helmets is still a sorry idea.

do rugby players have higher rates of concussions and head injuries?

(12-03-2012 11:38 AM)true_blue_thru_and_thru Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 10:33 AM)Memp400Kng Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 10:23 AM)Crini Wrote:  Are you not entertained?

Serious answer, when the money goes away.

More likely, when high schools start dropping it. I'd expect that children would be the first who are barred from participating in such a gladiatorial sport.

I think that will be the eventual death nail. Although I think it'll be more parents will start pushing their kids to other sports and then the talent pool will dry up and football will end up like heavyweight boxing.

As long as we got mommas having 7 kids out of wedlock, we will still have youth football.

(12-03-2012 01:36 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 01:22 PM)99Tiger Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 12:37 PM)fsquid Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 12:14 PM)99Tiger Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 10:24 AM)Phillip26r Wrote:  That or go back to one you fold and put in your pocket.

Yeah, that post gets made every so often...and it's as much garbage now as it was the first time I saw it. Concussions were still happening, just going unreported.

sure they were still happening, but no using the helmet as a weapon.

And no helmet to protect your head from collisions with the ground or opposing players while being tackled.

Reverting to leather helmets is still a sorry idea.

do rugby players have higher rates of concussions and head injuries?

Suprisingly, no.

(12-03-2012 01:37 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 11:38 AM)true_blue_thru_and_thru Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 10:33 AM)Memp400Kng Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 10:23 AM)Crini Wrote:  Are you not entertained?

Serious answer, when the money goes away.

More likely, when high schools start dropping it. I'd expect that children would be the first who are barred from participating in such a gladiatorial sport.

I think that will be the eventual death nail. Although I think it'll be more parents will start pushing their kids to other sports and then the talent pool will dry up and football will end up like heavyweight boxing.

As long as we got mommas having 7 kids out of wedlock, we will still have youth football.

While I think you're over exaggerating a little bit you have the right idea. I just think the quality of football will go down much like heavyweight boxing because your talent pool will get slashed. The idea will be that parents that "care" won't let little Johnny or Billy play football when they could be just as successful at basketball, baseball, track, and I think lacrosse will have to the most to gain from football's demise.

(12-03-2012 01:46 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 01:36 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 01:22 PM)99Tiger Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 12:37 PM)fsquid Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 12:14 PM)99Tiger Wrote:  Yeah, that post gets made every so often...and it's as much garbage now as it was the first time I saw it. Concussions were still happening, just going unreported.

sure they were still happening, but no using the helmet as a weapon.

And no helmet to protect your head from collisions with the ground or opposing players while being tackled.

Reverting to leather helmets is still a sorry idea.

do rugby players have higher rates of concussions and head injuries?

Suprisingly, no.

That is interesting, wonder if there's any studies that examine that?

(12-03-2012 01:36 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 01:22 PM)99Tiger Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 12:37 PM)fsquid Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 12:14 PM)99Tiger Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 10:24 AM)Phillip26r Wrote:  That or go back to one you fold and put in your pocket.

Yeah, that post gets made every so often...and it's as much garbage now as it was the first time I saw it. Concussions were still happening, just going unreported.

sure they were still happening, but no using the helmet as a weapon.

And no helmet to protect your head from collisions with the ground or opposing players while being tackled.

Reverting to leather helmets is still a sorry idea.

do rugby players have higher rates of concussions and head injuries?

Helmets don't really do all that much to prevent brain trauma. They are good at protecting the skull. But brain trauma occurs because the head stops moving suddenly and the brain doesn't and it slams into the skull.

Rugby has about the same number of concussions as football, but the issue with football is not just concussions. Referring to it as a concussion issue really obscures the biggest part of the problem, which is sub concussive trauma that's happening on just about every play.

I doubt football gets banned. But ultimately its going to suffer the way that boxing has as fewer and fewer athletes and their parents want them to play the game.

(12-03-2012 01:51 PM)Briskbas Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 01:36 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 01:22 PM)99Tiger Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 12:37 PM)fsquid Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 12:14 PM)99Tiger Wrote:  Yeah, that post gets made every so often...and it's as much garbage now as it was the first time I saw it. Concussions were still happening, just going unreported.

sure they were still happening, but no using the helmet as a weapon.

And no helmet to protect your head from collisions with the ground or opposing players while being tackled.

Reverting to leather helmets is still a sorry idea.

do rugby players have higher rates of concussions and head injuries?

Helmets don't really do all that much to prevent brain trauma. They are good at protecting the skull. But brain trauma occurs because the head stops moving suddenly and the brain doesn't and it slams into the skull.

Rugby has about the same number of concussions as football, but the issue with football is not just concussions. Referring to it as a concussion issue really obscures the biggest part of the problem, which is sub concussive trauma that's happening on just about every play.

I doubt football gets banned. But ultimately its going to suffer the way that boxing has as fewer and fewer athletes and their parents want them to play the game.

Cool and totally agree on the boxing comparison.

I believe that rugby is looking into the issue, so I have no idea if the rate is higher or not. You certainly don't hear about it. Three reasons for that. First, tacking is illegal above the shoulders. Second, you cannot leave your feet to tackle so no creating yourself as a missile. Third, you cannot pick anyone up on a tackle.

Of course, if the NFL got rid of those three things, it might not be as popular anymore.

If you prevented fighting in hockey, wrecks in NASCAR and hard tackles in football... all three would suffer.

Football, possibly less so than the others, but it is such an strong draw, that many fans would lose interest.

I also don't think football will lose support the way some here think. But, then again, we have seen a major shift in the thinking of our society as a whole. No telling what it will be like a generation from now.

(12-03-2012 02:14 PM)fsquid Wrote:  I believe that rugby is looking into the issue, so I have no idea if the rate is higher or not. You certainly don't hear about it. Three reasons for that. First, tacking is illegal above the shoulders. Second, you cannot leave your feet to tackle so no creating yourself as a missile. Third, you cannot pick anyone up on a tackle.

Of course, if the NFL got rid of those three things, it might not be as popular anymore.

the first reason is a de facto rule now anyway. there should be no reason the NFL couldnt just codify it now.

Reasons 2 and 3 would be tough for the issue you mentioned.

Here's an article from Time with a decent gloss on the issue.

Quote:The human brain, although encased by a heavy-duty cranium, isn't designed for football. Helmets do a nice job of protecting the exterior of the head and preventing deadly skull fractures. But concussions occur within the cranium, when the brain bangs against the skull. When helmets clash, the head decelerates instantly, yet the brain can lurch forward, like a driver who jams the brakes on. The bruising and stretching of tissue can result in something as minimal as "seeing stars" and a momentary separation from consciousness.

Repeated blows to the head, which are routine in football, can have lifelong repercussions. A study commissioned by the NFL found that ex–pro players over age 50 were five times as likely as the national population to receive a memory-related-disease diagnosis. Players 30 to 49 were 19 times as likely to be debilitated. Of the dozen brains of CTE victims McKee has examined, 10 were from either linemen or linebackers; some scientists now fear that the thousands of lower-impact, or "subconcussive," blows these players receive, even if they don't result in documented concussions, can be just as damaging as — if not more so than — the dramatic head injuries that tend to receive more attention and intensive treatment.

See also this follow up:

Quote:That argument, however, doesn't actually square with reality. Rugby, as it turns out, has plenty of problems with head injuries. According to one study, in South Africa about 14% of high school rugby players and 23% of professional and club players annually are diagnosed with concussions. Further, Michael Keating, the medical director for USA Rugby, says that a review of the scientific literature indicates that the number of incidences of concussions among rugby players and American-football players are similar. Some data suggest rugby incidence is 5% higher.

(12-03-2012 10:08 AM)Stammers Wrote:  The answer may turn out to be never; but who knows? These studies are a tip of the iceberg, and I have no doubt that the more studies they conduct; the more they are going to be able to conclude that football causes brain damage at an early age. 33 out of the 34 deceased football players that were examined, had brain damage.

Brain Damage

You folks have accused me of suffering from this malady for years. Now all of a sudden you want to fix it?

yup. just get rid of the helmets

i'm for full-on blood sport here

(12-03-2012 10:08 AM)Stammers Wrote:  The answer may turn out to be never; but who knows? These studies are a tip of the iceberg, and I have no doubt that the more studies they conduct; the more they are going to be able to conclude that football causes brain damage at an early age. 33 out of the 34 deceased football players that were examined, had brain damage.

Brain Damage

What's ur excuse???



Sorry couldn't help it. Too easy

(12-03-2012 02:54 PM)TG4 Wrote:  

(12-03-2012 10:08 AM)Stammers Wrote:  The answer may turn out to be never; but who knows? These studies are a tip of the iceberg, and I have no doubt that the more studies they conduct; the more they are going to be able to conclude that football causes brain damage at an early age. 33 out of the 34 deceased football players that were examined, had brain damage.

Brain Damage

You folks have accused me of suffering from this malady for years. Now all of a sudden you want to fix it?

These studies are very recent and are dealing with the first batch of players that are allowing their brains to be examined. The modern football helmet (with a facemask) was invented in 1955. Since then there have been a number of improvements which include using different polymers and inflatable padding.

It seems that bigger, heavier, faster players have been catching up to and passing the technology. What do lawmakers do if 480 out of the next 500 players studied have brain damage by their mid 50's?

I love the NFL, college football and boxing as much as anyone, and obviously there is a lot of money involved. Having said that, if the data proves conclusively that football causes brain damage; how many solutions are there?

The culture is going to have to change. I would guess that within 5-10 years max, the size of the helmets will be a full 3" diameter bigger than they are now (with the only reason they're not already is because they're ugly); and there will be no hitting with the helmet allowed whatsoever.