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French Socialist: "We're just doing what Obama's doing"
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: French Socialist: "We're just doing what Obama's doing"
Quote: 1. A 39.6% top marginal rate for personal federal income taxes, when added to state income taxes, puts us in the highest 10 of developed countries, higher than 2/3 of socialist Europe.

So now Obama is responsible for State income taxes? I hear a beeping, I think it's the goalpost moving backwards.

Quote: 2. A 35% top marginal rate for corporate income taxes, when added to state income taxes, makes us the highest in the developed world. OK, Obama didn't get us there, but he hasn't talked about moving us away either.

Which, as you state, is not Obamas doing so that's great you put it here.

Quote:3. Except, of course, his proposal for a 28% corporate rate (still higher than the OECD average) coupled with taxation of worldwide income of both consolidated and unconsolidated subsidiaries, which effectively makes US-based companies uncompetitive with European-based companies.

The OECD average includes a select few countries which rates skew that average lower than it's true median is. And, of course, that discounts any VAT that many of those nations have which must be considered.

Quote:4. If socialism means government ownership of the means of production, then taking equity stakes in car makers and banks, along with increased regulation and potential competition with health insurance companies all move us toward socialism. Actually, to be technically correct, those moves are probably more toward fascism than socialism, but decidedly toward either or both.

This is the only valid point you've made, and I'll give you that. But he is still not 'left' by any meaningful metric.
12-05-2012 04:09 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: French Socialist: "We're just doing what Obama's doing"
(12-05-2012 04:08 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-05-2012 03:58 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  Ok, where has Obama harped for higher corporate tax rates? Oh, that's right, he didn't. In fact, his plan calls for the opposite, per CNBC.com
Quote:Corporate tax rates: The president would lower the top corporate rate to 28 percent from 35 percent. A corporation's foreign profits would be subject to an unspecified minimum tax rate. Businesses would get a 20 percent income tax credit to move operations into the United States while tax deductions for shifting operations abroad would be dropped.
You were saying?

Umm, when Europe has an average top corporate tax rate of 24%, exactly how does proposin a top rate of 28% make him more conservative than Europe?

And note the kicker about foreign profits being taxed. That's defnitely to the left of Europe, and would make US-based corporations essentially uncompetitive with European counterparts. If it ever came to pass, it would force every US-based multi-national to leave. They simply could not compete otherwise.

Because, as you stated above, he is not responsible for the rate being 35%, and he is not moving the corporate tax right higher. In fact, he wants to lower it by a larger percentage than those same politicians that Blazer tried to claim were to the right of him. Hard claim to make.
12-05-2012 04:11 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #23
RE: French Socialist: "We're just doing what Obama's doing"
(12-05-2012 04:09 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
Quote: 1. A 39.6% top marginal rate for personal federal income taxes, when added to state income taxes, puts us in the highest 10 of developed countries, higher than 2/3 of socialist Europe.
So now Obama is responsible for State income taxes? I hear a beeping, I think it's the goalpost moving backwards.

No, the goalpost is not moving, but excluding state taxes from the US numbers and comparing them to "all in" foreign numbers is dreadfully misleading at best. Are you saying that when comparing US taxes to foreign taxes we should ignore the impact of state taxes? Who would make decisions that way?

Quote:
Quote: 2. A 35% top marginal rate for corporate income taxes, when added to state income taxes, makes us the highest in the developed world. OK, Obama didn't get us there, but he hasn't talked about moving us away either.
Which, as you state, is not Obamas doing so that's great you put it here.

It's his doing, at least to some extent, that it hasn't changed. And when it is a significant factor in jobs and economic activity going overseas, doing nothing is not an acceptable default position. And it should also be noted that his Bowles-Simpson commission and the alternative Domenici-Rivlin committee both took distinctly bipartisan looks at the problem and concluded that the US should lower rates and abandon it's worldwide taxation in favor of territorial taxation.

Quote:
Quote:3. Except, of course, his proposal for a 28% corporate rate (still higher than the OECD average) coupled with taxation of worldwide income of both consolidated and unconsolidated subsidiaries, which effectively makes US-based companies uncompetitive with European-based companies.
The OECD average includes a select few countries which rates skew that average lower than it's true median is. And, of course, that discounts any VAT that many of those nations have which must be considered.

There are 34 countries in the OECD database. A grand total of 6 of them have top rates higher than 28%, and of the 6 exactly 2 are higher than 30% and the highest is 34.4%. Nice try.

And you totally ignored the part about the worldwide taxation. The real problem here is that would make US-based companies uncompetitive in the world. Again note that Bowles-Simpson and Domenici-Rivlin recommended territorial tax systems. How do you respond to that?

And of course VAT is a consumption tax, not a corporate income tax. I actually favor some kind of consumption tax here. It's the only way that we are going to solve this problem without kiling American industry any deader than it already is.

Quote:
Quote:4. If socialism means government ownership of the means of production, then taking equity stakes in car makers and banks, along with increased regulation and potential competition with health insurance companies all move us toward socialism. Actually, to be technically correct, those moves are probably more toward fascism than socialism, but decidedly toward either or both.
This is the only valid point you've made, and I'll give you that. But he is still not 'left' by any meaningful metric.

It's not left by the metric that no matter what happens we're going to say it's not left. But that's about the only metric.
(This post was last modified: 12-05-2012 04:30 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
12-05-2012 04:22 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #24
RE: French Socialist: "We're just doing what Obama's doing"
(12-05-2012 02:12 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  So you're claiming that our gross tax rates per person are higher than Europes? Our Corporate is higher, sure, but our personal rates are significantly lower, which puts our gross at a significantly lower rate than most of western Europe. Yes?

No, our personal reates are NOT significantly lower than most of western Europe. Actually our top personal rate is about the middle, per OECD. Lower than Sweden, UK, Netherlands, Finland, Denmark, Ireland, Germany, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Austria. Higher than Luxembourg, Italy, Norway, France, Greece, Switzerland, Turkey, Hungary, Poland, Estonia, Czech Republic, Slovak Republic.
(This post was last modified: 12-05-2012 04:29 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
12-05-2012 04:29 PM
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BlazerFan11 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: French Socialist: "We're just doing what Obama's doing"
(12-05-2012 04:11 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  Because, as you stated above, he is not responsible for the rate being 35%, and he is not moving the corporate tax right higher. In fact, he wants to lower it by a larger percentage than those same politicians that Blazer tried to claim were to the right of him. Hard claim to make.

Let's recap. Your initial claim was that Obama "would easily be the most conservative leader in Europe," and asked for evidence in "any significant metric" that it wasn't true. Then you conveniently ignored the parts about Sweden's version of stimulus being permanent tax cuts (easily to the right of Obama's policies), cutting welfare spending to pay for the tax cuts (easily to the right of Obama's policies), running budget surpluses (easily to the right of Obama's policies), etc. You also didn't even wade into the Czech Republic discussion (and I'm sure there are a few others). Now, you're weakly clinging to the corporate tax cut notion, even though Sweden has already done it multiple times, while all Obama did was pay lip service to the idea on the campaign trail, as if they are somehow equal. Can you even point to a single time where he's urged Congress to put his "plan" into action (and do you think it was seriously gain traction in the Senate)?

You made an erroneous claim based on your own assumptions, and you were wrong. Just admit it and move on.
12-05-2012 04:36 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: French Socialist: "We're just doing what Obama's doing"
Quote:No, the goalpost is not moving, but excluding state taxes from the US numbers and comparing them to "all in" foreign numbers is dreadfully misleading at best. Are you saying that when comparing US taxes to foreign taxes we should ignore the impact of state taxes? Who would make decisions that way?

If there is any easy way to discern the two, I'd love to see a link, but the discussion is revolving around Obamas policies, and while it might not be fair to lump other nations as all in, I don't see that as a reason to lump things into this discussion that are clearly not Obamas policies.

Quote:It's his doing, at least to some extent, that it hasn't changed. And when it is a significant factor in jobs and economic activity going overseas, doing nothing is not an acceptable default position. And it should also be noted that his Bowles-Simpson commission and the alternative Domenici-Rivlin committee both took distinctly bipartisan looks at the problem and concluded that the US should lower rates and abandon it's worldwide taxation in favor of territorial taxation.

And, Obamas goal is to lower corporate taxes, to a greater extent than those outlined in the post I used it to refer too. As for his worldwide taxation plan, I honestly don't know enough about that to comment.

Quote: There are 34 countries in the OECD database. A grand total of 6 of them have top rates higher than 28%, and of the 6 exactly 2 are higher than 30% and the highest is 34.4%. Nice try.

Quote:CRS: U.S. Has A Slightly Lower "GDP Weighted Average" Corporate Tax Rate Than Other OECD Countries. A March 31, 2011, Congressional Research Service (CRS) report titled "International Corporate Tax Rate Comparisons and Policy Implications," compared the weighted average of corporate tax rates in the United States and in other countries in the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). It found that the United States has an effective corporate tax rate of 27.1%, compared to the OECD (excluding the United States) average of 27.7%.

In the end, I really do hate posting about tax policies because they're absurdly complicated, and the numbers can be skewed either way. I don't see any way to consider what Obama is wanting to do to the Corporate Tax Rate as 'leftist' as he wants to lower it by 20%, and it has no real bearing on my initial post. What Obama has done isn't socialist, not to the average person living in the Western world. It simply isn't, and that was my point.
12-05-2012 04:38 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #27
RE: French Socialist: "We're just doing what Obama's doing"
(12-05-2012 04:38 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  As for his worldwide taxation plan, I honestly don't know enough about that to comment.

And I've already indicated that is the biggest problem of all. Why don't you understand it? Don't you think maybe you should?
12-05-2012 04:41 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: French Socialist: "We're just doing what Obama's doing"
(12-05-2012 04:41 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-05-2012 04:38 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  As for his worldwide taxation plan, I honestly don't know enough about that to comment.

And I've already indicated that is the biggest problem of all. Why don't you understand it? Don't you think maybe you should?

Sure, but honestly, it'll have to wait until after exams.
12-05-2012 04:41 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #29
RE: French Socialist: "We're just doing what Obama's doing"
(12-05-2012 04:38 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
Quote:CRS: U.S. Has A Slightly Lower "GDP Weighted Average" Corporate Tax Rate Than Other OECD Countries. A March 31, 2011, Congressional Research Service (CRS) report titled "International Corporate Tax Rate Comparisons and Policy Implications," compared the weighted average of corporate tax rates in the United States and in other countries in the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). It found that the United States has an effective corporate tax rate of 27.1%, compared to the OECD (excluding the United States) average of 27.7%.
In the end, I really do hate posting about tax policies because they're absurdly complicated, and the numbers can be skewed either way. I don't see any way to consider what Obama is wanting to do to the Corporate Tax Rate as 'leftist' as he wants to lower it by 20%, and it has no real bearing on my initial post. What Obama has done isn't socialist, not to the average person living in the Western world. It simply isn't, and that was my point.

The reason the US has a lower weighted average is because people take advantage of the loopholes here, and then when they run out of loopholes and have to start paying the full freight, they move overseas. There goes investment, there go jobs, there goes money. I read this week where Apple has $60 billion in cash sitting overseas with no plans to repatriate any of it. Do you see that as a problem?

What Obama has done may or may not be socialist, but if it is not then that is because of the constraints placed on him by our system. And he is pretty vocal about wanting to get rid of a bunch of those constraints. If he doesn't want to move things much further to the left than those constraints will permit, then why does he want them removed. And if he does want to move things further left than the constraints permit, then are his constrained actions indicative of where he stands?

What he has done may not be socialist, but what he wants to do is, as expressed in his own words.

I take the unconstrained statements as more indicative of who he is and what he wants to do. You take his constratined actions. Neither of us is probably going to convince the other.
(This post was last modified: 12-05-2012 04:50 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
12-05-2012 04:47 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #30
RE: French Socialist: "We're just doing what Obama's doing"
Back to the original post...

Where did the French dude say what you quoted?

What has Obama nationalized in America?
12-05-2012 04:49 PM
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Post: #31
RE: French Socialist: "We're just doing what Obama's doing"
(12-05-2012 04:41 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(12-05-2012 04:41 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-05-2012 04:38 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  As for his worldwide taxation plan, I honestly don't know enough about that to comment.
And I've already indicated that is the biggest problem of all. Why don't you understand it? Don't you think maybe you should?
Sure, but honestly, it'll have to wait until after exams.

Fair enough, but your'e probably better off not trying to speak authoritatively about what his tax plan does or does not do until you understand that. Because that is the problem.

Let me ask you this hypothetically. If his tax plan imposed such a heavy tax on US companies that they simply could not compete in world markets, do you think that would be a problem?

We can discuss later when you understand the proposal better whether this is in fact the impact. I'm just asking hypothetically, if it were the case, would that be a problem in your mind?
(This post was last modified: 12-05-2012 05:00 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
12-05-2012 04:49 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: French Socialist: "We're just doing what Obama's doing"
There's not a single person on this board that would say that wouldn't be a problem, well at least any poster that needs to be taken seriously. The issue revolve around where that rate lies and an analysis on the benefits gained by different tax rates weighted against those taxes affect on our relative international competitiveness.
12-05-2012 05:41 PM
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Post: #33
RE: French Socialist: "We're just doing what Obama's doing"
(12-05-2012 04:49 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Back to the original post...

Where did the French dude say what you quoted?

What has Obama nationalized in America?

In the title and then in substance in the first sentence.

Later on, the "french dude" talks about the financial industry being nationalized and how they should nationalize more.

As for what Obama has nationalized, healthcare to a degree, financial industry, and automotive industry (GM anyone?)
(This post was last modified: 12-05-2012 07:47 PM by Jugnaut.)
12-05-2012 07:41 PM
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Post: #34
RE: French Socialist: "We're just doing what Obama's doing"
(12-05-2012 05:41 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  There's not a single person on this board that would say that wouldn't be a problem, well at least any poster that needs to be taken seriously. The issue revolve around where that rate lies and an analysis on the benefits gained by different tax rates weighted against those taxes affect on our relative international competitiveness.

So we agree conceptually.

I think it's a big problem. One thing that's a bit different about the description quoted above is that it says the rate on international operations is to be determined. Previous statements I've seen say it's 28%, just like domestic. That's clearly a problem. Anywhere over 15% starts to make US companies uncompetitive in certain cases. I have a friend who is probably to the left of you politically who is a tax lawyer, and right now he is feeding his family (quite well, I might add, he's charging an arm and a leg and staying busy 60 hours a week) by consulting with businesses on the best way to get out of town in a hurry if the 28% worldwide tax came in. These are companies that do business worldwide and they would just simply pack up and bail. They really don't see any other option.

This is one of the big problems I have with all these tax discussions. Comparisons of US rates today to US rates 10, 20, or 30 years ago are irrelevant, because nobody is going to move their plant to 1965. The relevant discussion of tax rates needs to be comparisons with overseas. And we are pretty non-competitive at the margin. The reason the average tax rate is competitive is becuause these companies have tax departments to manage that. They're going to pay about the same effective rate here as they do elsewhere, because when the effective rate gets higher here, they're going to move the operation offshore. That's what corporate tax planners do, is arrange their operations around the world to minimize taxes. Now you have operations management arranging operations for maximum operating efficiency, particularly if there is a need to be close to a particular market or close to a particular raw materials source. And other departments also contribute to the decision. But at the end of the day the company is going to go where it gets the best ROI. And if you want the company here, employing American workers, then the best way to do it is to make this the place where the ROI is highest. Taxes aren't the only way to do it, but they are certainly one way. When you're giving up 10% on tax rates, that's a giant step backward.
(This post was last modified: 12-05-2012 08:36 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
12-05-2012 08:31 PM
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dcCid Offline
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Post: #35
RE: French Socialist: "We're just doing what Obama's doing"
(12-05-2012 08:31 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-05-2012 05:41 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  There's not a single person on this board that would say that wouldn't be a problem, well at least any poster that needs to be taken seriously. The issue revolve around where that rate lies and an analysis on the benefits gained by different tax rates weighted against those taxes affect on our relative international competitiveness.

So we agree conceptually.

I think it's a big problem. One thing that's a bit different about the description quoted above is that it says the rate on international operations is to be determined. Previous statements I've seen say it's 28%, just like domestic. That's clearly a problem. Anywhere over 15% starts to make US companies uncompetitive in certain cases. I have a friend who is probably to the left of you politically who is a tax lawyer, and right now he is feeding his family (quite well, I might add, he's charging an arm and a leg and staying busy 60 hours a week) by consulting with businesses on the best way to get out of town in a hurry if the 28% worldwide tax came in. These are companies that do business worldwide and they would just simply pack up and bail. They really don't see any other option.

This is one of the big problems I have with all these tax discussions. Comparisons of US rates today to US rates 10, 20, or 30 years ago are irrelevant, because nobody is going to move their plant to 1965. The relevant discussion of tax rates needs to be comparisons with overseas. And we are pretty non-competitive at the margin. The reason the average tax rate is competitive is becuause these companies have tax departments to manage that. They're going to pay about the same effective rate here as they do elsewhere, because when the effective rate gets higher here, they're going to move the operation offshore. That's what corporate tax planners do, is arrange their operations around the world to minimize taxes. Now you have operations management arranging operations for maximum operating efficiency, particularly if there is a need to be close to a particular market or close to a particular raw materials source. And other departments also contribute to the decision. But at the end of the day the company is going to go where it gets the best ROI. And if you want the company here, employing American workers, then the best way to do it is to make this the place where the ROI is highest. Taxes aren't the only way to do it, but they are certainly one way. When you're giving up 10% on tax rates, that's a giant step backward.

I agree it is easier to move overseas today then it was in the past.

If comparing tax rates, should we not also have to add in the VAT tax since companies are paying those in addition to income taxes?

I also think for many industries, cheap labor abroad is a driving factor more so than taxes.
12-06-2012 08:53 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #36
RE: French Socialist: "We're just doing what Obama's doing"
(12-06-2012 08:53 AM)dcCid Wrote:  I agree it is easier to move overseas today then it was in the past.
If comparing tax rates, should we not also have to add in the VAT tax since companies are paying those in addition to income taxes?

VAT is not actually paid by companies, it is merely collected and passed through. I think there's a lot of conceptual misunderstanding about how a VAT works. There's also a strong argument that corporate income taxes are merely added on to product price, collected, and passed through, which makes the corporate income tax perhaps the most regressive tax of all.

More important to this discussion, VAT is collected on imports and rebated on exports. For this reason, most studies indicate that a VAT adds 1-2% to growth. That makes the effective rate zero in considering plant location decisions. So, for purposes of this discussion, we do not have to add in VAT.

Quote:I also think for many industries, cheap labor abroad is a driving factor more so than taxes.

For many industries, cheap labor is the primary driving factor. Is our economic future really dependent on sewing up the world's Nikes? We can certainly hope not. For many other industries, cheap labor is not the primary driving factor. Those are the ones we want. Those are the ones that pay wages that will support a strong middle class.

To get those jobs instead of seeing them go to other countries, we have to become more competitive. And there is no good reason to have a tax structure that makes us uncompetitive.
12-06-2012 09:20 AM
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Post: #37
RE: French Socialist: "We're just doing what Obama's doing"
(12-05-2012 07:41 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  
(12-05-2012 04:49 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Back to the original post...

Where did the French dude say what you quoted?

What has Obama nationalized in America?

In the title and then in substance in the first sentence.

Later on, the "french dude" talks about the financial industry being nationalized and how they should nationalize more.

As for what Obama has nationalized, healthcare to a degree, financial industry, and automotive industry (GM anyone?)

I know what YOU typed for a quote, but the french dude never said that. If he did, please cite the source.

And Obama has nationalized nothing. Perhaps you should look up the definition of that.
12-07-2012 09:39 AM
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