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All Things Realignment
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doss2 Offline
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Post: #18761
RE: All Things Realignment
(07-09-2020 07:29 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(07-09-2020 06:16 AM)dave108 Wrote:  
(07-07-2020 03:23 PM)rosewater Wrote:  
(07-07-2020 12:29 PM)dave108 Wrote:  
(07-07-2020 10:19 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  Bolded, I would agree that ESPN shares in the blame. But UC wasn't institutionally ready when the implosion occurred either. If Cincinnati had the versions of Nippert Stadium and 5th/3rd Arena it has today it could have changed history. Louisville had shiny new facilities deemed "P5 ready". UC didn't even have an approved renovation plan at that point for either major venue. Williams certainly has to share in that failure but it was bigger than any one person. My feeling (and it's nothing more than that) was that UC had so recently made it to the Promised Land of the BCS 6 and had so many other capital improvement projects underway, that some complacency set in--albeit at a very bad time.

Also, the president at the time was, I believe, on some OBE panel, exploring how to keep the OBE viable. i think he was completely committed to a sinking ship, and didn't care what it did to the sports programs.

I am not sure this is totally correct. On record, President Williams was saying all the right things about holding the conference together. However, when West Virginia was trying to get out of the 27 month waiting period, court records showed West Virginia painting a picture of a doomed conference. They mentioned that Cincinnati and I believe Connecticut were shopping for a new conference behind the scenes.

West Virginia's lawsuit says other Big East football members — Connecticut, Louisville, Rutgers and Cincinnati — "have been engaged in discussions with other sports conferences," so when the Big 12 extended its invitation Friday the Mountaineers accepted.https://www.pennlive.com/patriotnewssports/2011/10/west_virginia_files_lawsuit_ag.html

i had heard that he was enamored of the big city / big lights / east coast intelligentsia profile, which helped his illusionary feelings that he, and his school, belonged with the east coast liberals / snobs - nothing better than a cocktail reception at georgetown....

I am not so sure. I think if Williams' did have a vision of a "big city" conference, I just am not so sure about the east coast snobbery part. As I recall, Williams headed up the committee to backfill the AAC and he was personally involved in the addition of academic lightweight Memphis. I remember reading an article how he invited Memphis' president to his box seat during the Liberty Bowl against Vandy and how they drove off together as the deal was brokered.

If he wanted to keep us with the east coast wine and cheese crowd, he would have made sure we would have stayed with the catholic schools and would have made us go Indy in football. Many sources said that option was on the table for UC and UConn when the split occurred.

Everyone knew and everyone knows going Indy is a prescription that only works for ND and to a much lesser degree BYU and Army. UMass is irrelevant as will as UConn. NMS and Liberty played a home and home last year to fill out their Indy dance card. Liberty would jump at a Sunbelt or CUSA invite. When UConn drops to FCS expect UMass to follow.

Fans and players want to play for a championship.
 
07-09-2020 07:42 AM
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CliftonAve Offline
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Post: #18762
RE: All Things Realignment
^^ I am in 100% agreement with you, I am responding to the comment that Williams wanted to stay with the East coast elitist crowd.
 
07-09-2020 07:44 AM
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rosewater Offline
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Post: #18763
RE: All Things Realignment
(07-09-2020 07:29 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(07-09-2020 06:16 AM)dave108 Wrote:  
(07-07-2020 03:23 PM)rosewater Wrote:  
(07-07-2020 12:29 PM)dave108 Wrote:  
(07-07-2020 10:19 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  Bolded, I would agree that ESPN shares in the blame. But UC wasn't institutionally ready when the implosion occurred either. If Cincinnati had the versions of Nippert Stadium and 5th/3rd Arena it has today it could have changed history. Louisville had shiny new facilities deemed "P5 ready". UC didn't even have an approved renovation plan at that point for either major venue. Williams certainly has to share in that failure but it was bigger than any one person. My feeling (and it's nothing more than that) was that UC had so recently made it to the Promised Land of the BCS 6 and had so many other capital improvement projects underway, that some complacency set in--albeit at a very bad time.

Also, the president at the time was, I believe, on some OBE panel, exploring how to keep the OBE viable. i think he was completely committed to a sinking ship, and didn't care what it did to the sports programs.

I am not sure this is totally correct. On record, President Williams was saying all the right things about holding the conference together. However, when West Virginia was trying to get out of the 27 month waiting period, court records showed West Virginia painting a picture of a doomed conference. They mentioned that Cincinnati and I believe Connecticut were shopping for a new conference behind the scenes.

West Virginia's lawsuit says other Big East football members — Connecticut, Louisville, Rutgers and Cincinnati — "have been engaged in discussions with other sports conferences," so when the Big 12 extended its invitation Friday the Mountaineers accepted.https://www.pennlive.com/patriotnewssports/2011/10/west_virginia_files_lawsuit_ag.html

i had heard that he was enamored of the big city / big lights / east coast intelligentsia profile, which helped his illusionary feelings that he, and his school, belonged with the east coast liberals / snobs - nothing better than a cocktail reception at georgetown....

I am not so sure. I think if Williams' did have a vision of a "big city" conference, I just am not so sure about the east coast snobbery part. As I recall, Williams headed up the committee to backfill the AAC and he was personally involved in the addition of academic lightweight Memphis. I remember reading an article how he invited Memphis' president to his box seat during the Liberty Bowl against Vandy and how they drove off together as the deal was brokered.

If he wanted to keep us with the east coast wine and cheese crowd, he would have made sure we would have stayed with the catholic schools and would have made us go Indy in football. Many sources said that option was on the table for UC and UConn when the split occurred.

In hind site, with all the cruddy cards that we were dealt, we made the best decision. Maybe at some point there was a small opening, but at the time the other three(Tcu, wvu, Lou) were bigger brands in football. And we all remember the saying, football drives the bus.
 
07-09-2020 07:50 AM
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Cataclysmo Offline
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Post: #18764
All Things Realignment
Biggest mistake was not starting the stadium renovation during the Kelly era. We had plenty of momentum and would've featured a brand new playing field with a top 25 program coming off two BCS bowls and a top 5 finish in 2009. We were the hot kids on the block, just didn't do enough to market it.

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07-09-2020 07:59 AM
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Bear Catlett Offline
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Post: #18765
RE: All Things Realignment
I'll just go ahead and head off the "Louisville had the vision and upgraded their facilities and we didn't" nonsense.

If you'll recall, Louisville was playing football in a minor league baseball stadium. They HAD to build a respectable football stadium because that pile of crap they were playing in wasn't even FCS worthy. And in 1998 when they built the place, there was no talk of realignment. They were simply getting up to speed with most everyone else.

And we all know, Louisville has always been a basketball school in a basketball crazed state. They weren't going to get away with taking care of the football team without setting up their beloved basketball program in new digs. Freedom Hall was a pit. And an ancient one at that.

So we kick ourselves for not being more like Louisville, but Louisville basically benefited by being behind the times to start out with.
 
07-09-2020 08:42 AM
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OKIcat Offline
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Post: #18766
RE: All Things Realignment
(07-09-2020 07:59 AM)Cataclysmo Wrote:  Biggest mistake was not starting the stadium renovation during the Kelly era. We had plenty of momentum and would've featured a brand new playing field with a top 25 program coming off two BCS bowls and a top 5 finish in 2009. We were the hot kids on the block, just didn't do enough to market it.

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Absolutely correct. Hindsight is indeed 20/20. I only say that because Cincinnati's culture as a city has often been more like, "slow and steady wins the race." In some ways, it has served this area well as we witness boom/bust cycles in other large metro areas. At other times (such as not going for the Nippert expansion in the Kelly era) it's caused major setbacks. The implosion of the Big East was a worst case scenario as UC leaders failed to seize the moment when our 'Cats were making back-to-back BCS bowl appearances.

An exception to this rule was FCC's seemingly meteoric rise from formation to major league status. Even some reporters who followed that story nationally were surprised that Cincinnati was selected. It was far from the slow and steady mode we're accustomed to witnessing.
 
07-09-2020 08:49 AM
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BearcatMan Offline
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Post: #18767
RE: All Things Realignment
(07-09-2020 08:42 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  I'll just go ahead and head off the "Louisville had the vision and upgraded their facilities and we didn't" nonsense.

If you'll recall, Louisville was playing football in a minor league baseball stadium. They HAD to build a respectable football stadium because that pile of crap they were playing in wasn't even FCS worthy. And in 1998 when they built the place, there was no talk of realignment. They were simply getting up to speed with most everyone else.

And we all know, Louisville has always been a basketball school in a basketball crazed state. They weren't going to get away with taking care of the football team without setting up their beloved basketball program in new digs. Freedom Hall was a pit. And an ancient one at that.

So we kick ourselves for not being more like Louisville, but Louisville basically benefited by being behind the times to start out with.

It also helped them that a professional football team didn't bend the City Council over a folding chair prior to their attempt to build the Yum Center with public money too.
 
07-09-2020 08:51 AM
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Post: #18768
RE: All Things Realignment
(07-09-2020 08:42 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  I'll just go ahead and head off the "Louisville had the vision and upgraded their facilities and we didn't" nonsense.

If you'll recall, Louisville was playing football in a minor league baseball stadium. They HAD to build a respectable football stadium because that pile of crap they were playing in wasn't even FCS worthy. And in 1998 when they built the place, there was no talk of realignment. They were simply getting up to speed with most everyone else.

And we all know, Louisville has always been a basketball school in a basketball crazed state. They weren't going to get away with taking care of the football team without setting up their beloved basketball program in new digs. Freedom Hall was a pit. And an ancient one at that.

So we kick ourselves for not being more like Louisville, but Louisville basically benefited by being behind the times to start out with.

Louisville also devoted basically all of their resources to athletics and ignored academics and the campus as a whole. Their dorms suck. The academic buildings all look like they were built in the 80's are extremely generic. The campus is about half the size of UC in terms of restaurants etc. The basketball stadium is two miles away from campus downtown and the football stadium is a half a mile away from campus towards the airport. The just built their student gym around 2014. Prior to that the gym was basically an underground afterthought. All in all, the experience for the average student at UC far surpasses UoL which is lagging far behind UC in academics and the general commuter school persona. It is basically an athletic park/playground with some academic buildings accidentally attached. And the Old Louisville area has crime problems easily on par with OTR/ Corryville.
 
07-09-2020 08:52 AM
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CliftonAve Offline
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Post: #18769
RE: All Things Realignment
Bottom line the difference between us in Louisville is one school has an NFL team in town and the other one doesn’t. On top of that our city had more of a split with all the OSU, UK, Notre Dame and MAC school fans. Louisville has one split (UK) and basically most UK fans do not care about football.
 
07-09-2020 09:04 AM
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doss2 Offline
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Post: #18770
RE: All Things Realignment
(07-09-2020 07:59 AM)Cataclysmo Wrote:  Biggest mistake was not starting the stadium renovation during the Kelly era. We had plenty of momentum and would've featured a brand new playing field with a top 25 program coming off two BCS bowls and a top 5 finish in 2009. We were the hot kids on the block, just didn't do enough to market it.

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I remember the design that was being bantered about. All sizzle no action.
 
07-09-2020 09:49 AM
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Bruce Monnin Offline
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Post: #18771
RE: All Things Realignment
(07-09-2020 08:52 AM)skylinecat Wrote:  Louisville also devoted basically all of their resources to athletics and ignored academics and the campus as a whole. Their dorms suck. The academic buildings all look like they were built in the 80's are extremely generic. The campus is about half the size of UC in terms of restaurants etc. The basketball stadium is two miles away from campus downtown and the football stadium is a half a mile away from campus towards the airport. The just built their student gym around 2014. Prior to that the gym was basically an underground afterthought. All in all, the experience for the average student at UC far surpasses UoL which is lagging far behind UC in academics and the general commuter school persona. It is basically an athletic park/playground with some academic buildings accidentally attached. And the Old Louisville area has crime problems easily on par with OTR/ Corryville.

I've been told by academic people at other schools that Louisville is basically a community college academics-wise with a D1 athletic department grafted onto it.
 
07-09-2020 10:40 AM
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skylinecat Offline
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Post: #18772
RE: All Things Realignment
(07-09-2020 10:40 AM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  
(07-09-2020 08:52 AM)skylinecat Wrote:  Louisville also devoted basically all of their resources to athletics and ignored academics and the campus as a whole. Their dorms suck. The academic buildings all look like they were built in the 80's are extremely generic. The campus is about half the size of UC in terms of restaurants etc. The basketball stadium is two miles away from campus downtown and the football stadium is a half a mile away from campus towards the airport. The just built their student gym around 2014. Prior to that the gym was basically an underground afterthought. All in all, the experience for the average student at UC far surpasses UoL which is lagging far behind UC in academics and the general commuter school persona. It is basically an athletic park/playground with some academic buildings accidentally attached. And the Old Louisville area has crime problems easily on par with OTR/ Corryville.

I've been told by academic people at other schools that Louisville is basically a community college academics-wise with a D1 athletic department grafted onto it.

It is fine for what it is, which is the back up school for kids that don't get into UK or are afraid to leave the nest.
 
07-09-2020 12:01 PM
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skylinecat Offline
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Post: #18773
RE: All Things Realignment
(07-09-2020 10:40 AM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  
(07-09-2020 08:52 AM)skylinecat Wrote:  Louisville also devoted basically all of their resources to athletics and ignored academics and the campus as a whole. Their dorms suck. The academic buildings all look like they were built in the 80's are extremely generic. The campus is about half the size of UC in terms of restaurants etc. The basketball stadium is two miles away from campus downtown and the football stadium is a half a mile away from campus towards the airport. The just built their student gym around 2014. Prior to that the gym was basically an underground afterthought. All in all, the experience for the average student at UC far surpasses UoL which is lagging far behind UC in academics and the general commuter school persona. It is basically an athletic park/playground with some academic buildings accidentally attached. And the Old Louisville area has crime problems easily on par with OTR/ Corryville.

I've been told by academic people at other schools that Louisville is basically a community college academics-wise with a D1 athletic department grafted onto it.

It is fine for what it is, which is the back up school for kids that don't get into UK or are afraid to leave the nest.
 
07-09-2020 12:01 PM
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bearcatdp Offline
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Post: #18774
RE: All Things Realignment
(07-09-2020 12:01 PM)skylinecat Wrote:  
(07-09-2020 10:40 AM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  
(07-09-2020 08:52 AM)skylinecat Wrote:  Louisville also devoted basically all of their resources to athletics and ignored academics and the campus as a whole. Their dorms suck. The academic buildings all look like they were built in the 80's are extremely generic. The campus is about half the size of UC in terms of restaurants etc. The basketball stadium is two miles away from campus downtown and the football stadium is a half a mile away from campus towards the airport. The just built their student gym around 2014. Prior to that the gym was basically an underground afterthought. All in all, the experience for the average student at UC far surpasses UoL which is lagging far behind UC in academics and the general commuter school persona. It is basically an athletic park/playground with some academic buildings accidentally attached. And the Old Louisville area has crime problems easily on par with OTR/ Corryville.

I've been told by academic people at other schools that Louisville is basically a community college academics-wise with a D1 athletic department grafted onto it.

It is fine for what it is, which is the back up school for kids that don't get into UK or are afraid to leave the nest.

Basically what Boise would be if they were invited to a "P" conference. Regardless, UL won.
 
07-09-2020 12:02 PM
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beethovan Offline
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Post: #18775
RE: All Things Realignment
I've been told by academic people at other schools that Louisville is basically a community college academics-wise with a D1 athletic department grafted onto it.
[/quote]

We lived in "Louisivul" for almost 25 years - when my daughter graduated from high school (one of the best public hs in the area) not one of the top 15-20 students even applied to UofL, even as a safe school, and this despite the opportunity to receive full scholarships. One of our best friends was a prof there and we had some interesting conversations with him - his comments were along the line of his students basically belonging in community college, if there. He finally couldn't stand it and left to teach elsewhere. Granted this was a while ago and I would not comment on current academics at UofL, but I'm guessing it couldn't have improved all that much.
 
07-09-2020 04:17 PM
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RE: All Things Realignment
(07-09-2020 12:02 PM)bearcatdp Wrote:  
(07-09-2020 12:01 PM)skylinecat Wrote:  
(07-09-2020 10:40 AM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  
(07-09-2020 08:52 AM)skylinecat Wrote:  Louisville also devoted basically all of their resources to athletics and ignored academics and the campus as a whole. Their dorms suck. The academic buildings all look like they were built in the 80's are extremely generic. The campus is about half the size of UC in terms of restaurants etc. The basketball stadium is two miles away from campus downtown and the football stadium is a half a mile away from campus towards the airport. The just built their student gym around 2014. Prior to that the gym was basically an underground afterthought. All in all, the experience for the average student at UC far surpasses UoL which is lagging far behind UC in academics and the general commuter school persona. It is basically an athletic park/playground with some academic buildings accidentally attached. And the Old Louisville area has crime problems easily on par with OTR/ Corryville.

I've been told by academic people at other schools that Louisville is basically a community college academics-wise with a D1 athletic department grafted onto it.

It is fine for what it is, which is the back up school for kids that don't get into UK or are afraid to leave the nest.

Basically what Boise would be if they were invited to a "P" conference. Regardless, UL won.

Yes--they parlayed their historic MBB success with an uptick in FB performance and a big fanbase and were able to make the jump...had the MBB at UL been mediocre to bad, then they likely wouldn't have been drawn in.

Now, with access to P5 $$$, they can, over time, become a profitable AD, which takes a big load off of UL's budget. The undergraduate academics really don't matter to them. It's a $$$ game all the way.
 
(This post was last modified: 07-09-2020 08:52 PM by converrl.)
07-09-2020 08:51 PM
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