I love the word games people play to avoid pretty clear logic..

(10-18-2012 09:45 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Uh, there is no greater likelihood of sexual abuse by Gay men than by straight ones.

True... But it is more likely for a boy to be abused by a Gay man and a Girl to be abused by a straight man. There is a reason I will not let a male babysit my girls.

Quote:Why hasn't the Big Brother/Big Sister groups been sued for having Gay men/women in their organization? Oh yea, that's right, because abuse doesn't go up when you allow openly Gay men into the organization.

I love the way you slip "openly" in there. The instances of openly versus closeted gays is irrelevant...

By the way

After Allegations of Sexual Abuse, Big Brothers Program Ends Sleepovers

Quote:“We’ve had a recent allegation,” BBBS of PS president Patrick D’Amelio said on the phone today when asked if there were instances of reported sexual abuse between mentors and children in the program. “We are working through those issues with a high regard for the child’s well-being and cooperating with law enforcement.”

Any time you have overnight arrangements, like camping trips, the risk of something bad happening goes way up.

Quote:1) Continue to run the organization as defacto subsidiaries of the Mormon Church and the Southern Baptist Convention. Continue to ban Gays and people without religion. Lose all taxpayer funding. Watch the organization fall away to nothing on the coasts.

Would be better than compromising their values. Of course if liberals did not have a stick up their rear about making other fit their world view despite a freedom of association this would not be an issue.

There are more than enough evangilical Christians in the Boston area to keep a scout troop or two going.

(10-18-2012 09:48 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(10-18-2012 09:35 AM)jh Wrote:  Should not try what? To keep out child molesters? Absolutely they should. And if there was a demonstrated link between adult sexual preferences and child molestation the ban would make sense (as a private organization other reasons are allowable as well).

If one commits a homosexual act they are either **** or bi sexual... That's pretty simple. No reason to try and muddy it up here. Noboady is saying all or most Gays are also phedophiles. But all men who molest little boys have a homosexual nature.

All elephants are grey but not all gray things re elephants.

BS. Jerry Sandusky and Larry Craig are not my people. They lived their public lives exactly how the fundies and the GOP wanted them to do so...in the closet, married to a woman, conservative voting and church going. They're not my people. And their experience has zero to do with that of out Gay men. Zero. None of those people support Gay rights.

There is a difference between a Gay man and a closeted homosexual/bisexual. Gay men are open and honest about their sexuality and have EXTREMELY low rates of molestation. Closeted homosexuals cheat on their wives, meet in public park/mall/gym restrooms and truck stop porn booths, and creepily find sex wherever they can.

Just look at all the cases of child molestation. How many came from outwardly celibate/straight. How many come from openly Gay?

Your premise is erroneous. And an openly Gay man has very little in common with a pedophile.

(10-18-2012 09:57 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  I love the word games people play to avoid pretty clear logic..

(10-18-2012 09:45 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Uh, there is no greater likelihood of sexual abuse by Gay men than by straight ones.

True... But it is more likely for a boy to be abused by a Gay man and a Girl to be abused by a straight man. There is a reason I will not let a male babysit my girls.

Quote:Why hasn't the Big Brother/Big Sister groups been sued for having Gay men/women in their organization? Oh yea, that's right, because abuse doesn't go up when you allow openly Gay men into the organization.

I love the way you slip "openly" in there. The instances of openly versus closeted gays is irrelevant...

By the way

After Allegations of Sexual Abuse, Big Brothers Program Ends Sleepovers

Quote:“We’ve had a recent allegation,” BBBS of PS president Patrick D’Amelio said on the phone today when asked if there were instances of reported sexual abuse between mentors and children in the program. “We are working through those issues with a high regard for the child’s well-being and cooperating with law enforcement.”

Any time you have overnight arrangements, like camping trips, the risk of something bad happening goes way up.

Quote:1) Continue to run the organization as defacto subsidiaries of the Mormon Church and the Southern Baptist Convention. Continue to ban Gays and people without religion. Lose all taxpayer funding. Watch the organization fall away to nothing on the coasts.

Would be better than compromising their values. Of course if liberals did not have a stick up their rear about making other fit their world view despite a freedom of association this would not be an issue.

There are more than enough evangilical Christians in the Boston area to keep a scout troop or two going.

Regardless of one case with BBBS, its riduculous to assume that there are problems with having openly Gay men in the organization.

I used openly Gay for a reason. Outwardly straight, married to a woman, conservative voting, outwardly celebate, etc. men who happen to have sex with men on the side don't have anything in common with me. Or with Gay people (the word Gay in this case meaning 'out of the closet'). And you know theres a HUGE difference.

I'm sure Scott Lively and the Mormons can keep a BSA troop going up in Mass. But Scouting has and will continue to fall off a cliff in those areas as parents are repelled by BSA's bigotry.

(10-18-2012 10:04 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Regardless of one case with BBBS, its riduculous to assume that there are problems with having openly Gay men in the organization.

You obviously are not familiar w/ the Scout's agenda.

Quote:I used openly Gay for a reason. Outwardly straight, married to a woman, conservative voting, outwardly celebate, etc. men who happen to have sex with men on the side don't have anything in common with me. Or with Gay people (the word Gay in this case meaning 'out of the closet'). And you know theres a HUGE difference.

Ok.

Quote:I'm sure Scott Lively and the Mormons can keep a BSA troop going up in Mass. But Scouting has and will continue to fall off a cliff in those areas as parents are repelled by BSA's bigotry.

No proof of that.

(10-18-2012 09:58 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  BS. Jerry Sandusky and Larry Craig are not my people.

You jus described two bisexual men. That does not make them "your people" any more than they are "my people"...

Quote:They lived their public lives exactly how the fundies and the GOP wanted them to do so

And in private they were men having sex with teenage boys... Males having sex with males.

Quote:...in the closet, married to a woman, conservative voting and church going. They're not my people.

One of the great dysfunctions that is shared by many homosexuals is group identity based on sexual preferences. Nobody here is saying sandusky is the norm nor that most gyas endorse or can even stomah his behavior.

Quote:And their experience has zero to do with that of out Gay men. Zero. None of those people support Gay rights.

That's a political orientation, not a sexual one. There are African Americans against Affirmative action, that makes them no less black. But once again you cant separate the class of people you want to roll around with from your whole person identity.

Quote:Gay men are open and honest about their sexuality and have EXTREMELY low rates of molestation.

Yea Jesse Dirkhising take issue with that broad brush you're using.

Quote:Your premise is erroneous. And an openly Gay man has very little in common with a pedophile.

And an openly straight man has little in common with a pedophile yet I won't let a straight man babysit my girls.

I've coached youth sports and I've chaperoned numerous overnight trips involving kids.

It's real simple. Nobody, but NOBODY is ever allowed alone with any kid that ain't their kid.

People with nefarious intent will maneuver to be alone with a kid. People without them avoid it like the kid is radioactive. In our culture it's a self-defense measure. I will not be put in a position to be accused of anything.

Gay, straight, it's moot. If you're in a room with a kid, so is another adult.

(10-18-2012 10:10 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(10-18-2012 09:58 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  BS. Jerry Sandusky and Larry Craig are not my people.

You jus described two bisexual men. That does not make them "your people" any more than they are "my people"...

Quote:They lived their public lives exactly how the fundies and the GOP wanted them to do so

And in private they were men having sex with teenage boys... Males having sex with males.

Quote:...in the closet, married to a woman, conservative voting and church going. They're not my people.

One of the great dysfunctions that is shared by many homosexuals is group identity based on sexual preferences. Nobody here is saying sandusky is the norm nor that most gyas endorse or can even stomah his behavior.

Quote:And their experience has zero to do with that of out Gay men. Zero. None of those people support Gay rights.

That's a political orientation, not a sexual one. There are African Americans against Affirmative action, that makes them no less black. But once again you cant separate the class of people you want to roll around with from your whole person identity.

Quote:Gay men are open and honest about their sexuality and have EXTREMELY low rates of molestation.

Yea Jesse Dirkhising take issue with that broad brush you're using.

Quote:Your premise is erroneous. And an openly Gay man has very little in common with a pedophile.

And an openly straight man has little in common with a pedophile yet I won't let a straight man babysit my girls.

Yes, I'm aware of the Jesse Dirkhising case. You've got one case. One ! I'm sure there are others. But the larger point is that cases of outwardly straight/celebate males abusing kids is much more prevalent than cases of openly Gay persons abusing kids. By the way, there was, I think another case up in the Chicago area.

Sandusky isn't Gay. He self identified and outwardly identified as straight, Republican , married to a woman, church-going, etc. Banning openly Gay persons from Scouting or the Second Mile Foundation does zero to stop abuses like his. Zero. Just because I went to a Bar Mitzvah, it doesn't make me Jewish. Just because someone has sex with men, doesn't make them Gay. Being Gay is a cultural affiliation for homosexuals.

Was Sandusky a pedophile? Yes. Was he a homosexual? Perhaps. Was he Gay? No.

(10-18-2012 10:19 AM)Smaug Wrote:  I've coached youth sports and I've chaperoned numerous overnight trips involving kids.

It's real simple. Nobody, but NOBODY is ever allowed alone with any kid that ain't their kid.

People with nefarious intent will maneuver to be alone with a kid. People without them avoid it like the kid is radioactive. In our culture it's a self-defense measure. I will not be put in a position to be accused of anything.

Gay, straight, it's moot. If you're in a room with a kid, so is another adult.

And that's the real problem with the BSA's policy. Adults should have to lose most access to the kids when their own kids age out. They refuse to do that. They just keep blaming openly Gay persons and athiests for their problems.

(10-18-2012 10:21 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Sandusky isn't Gay.

I believe I have said he was Bisexual

Quote:He self identified and outwardly identified as straight

Who secretly had same sex attractions to teenage boys.

Quote:Republican

A political party

Quote:married to a woman

A legal arrangement

Quote:church-going

A weekly appointment on the calendar

---

None of this changes the fact that Sandusky was a bi sexual. Some of the victims were late teens which means sexually mature. Still *I AM NOT SAYING HE IS LIKE YOU*

(10-18-2012 10:27 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(10-18-2012 10:21 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Sandusky isn't Gay.

I believe I have said he was Bisexual

Quote:He self identified and outwardly identified as straight

Who secretly had same sex attractions to teenage boys.

Quote:Republican

A political party

Quote:married to a woman

A legal arrangement

Quote:church-going

A weekly appointment on the calendar

---

None of this changes the fact that Sandusky was a bi sexual. Some of the victims were late teens which means sexually mature. Still *I AM NOT SAYING HE IS LIKE YOU*

I'm glad you at least agree with the Gay rights activists with regards to institution of marriage from a legal standpoint. Irrelevant to this discussion though. My point is that its ridiculous to advocate/defend banning OPENLY Gay persons from Scouting or any other organization as it will do little, if anything, to stop abuse. Because there is a huge difference between being Gay and being a Republican, married to a woman, church-going outwardly straight man and being open and honest about one's sexuality.

I've slept with women before. I can physically do the deed. It doesn't make me a bisexual. There is a cultural component to being Gay. A component that homosexuals do not have in common with us. Larry Craig and Jerry Sandusky (as well as Ted Haggerd) aren't my people. There is such a thing as a Gay man. And that community does NOT include DL men.

(10-18-2012 10:40 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  I'm glad you at least agree with the Gay rights activists with regards to institution of marriage from a legal standpoint.

I've never siad otherwise. What I have said is I would be fine with civil unions that confer all the same legal rights...

Quote:My point is that its ridiculous to advocate/defend banning OPENLY Gay persons from Scouting or any other organization as it will do little, if anything, to stop abuse.

Firstly that's not the only reason they are banned. The scouts are a Christian group and homosexuality is explicitly forbidden in the Bible in both the old and new testaments.

Secondly while it might do "little" to help, I'll take that.

Quote:I've slept with women before. I can physically do the deed. It doesn't make me a bisexual.

If you enjoyed it then, yes, it does.

(10-18-2012 11:02 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(10-18-2012 10:40 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  I'm glad you at least agree with the Gay rights activists with regards to institution of marriage from a legal standpoint.

I've never siad otherwise. What I have said is I would be fine with civil unions that confer all the same legal rights...

Quote:My point is that its ridiculous to advocate/defend banning OPENLY Gay persons from Scouting or any other organization as it will do little, if anything, to stop abuse.

Firstly that's not the only reason they are banned. The scouts are a Christian group and homosexuality is explicitly forbidden in the Bible in both the old and new testaments.

Secondly while it might do "little" to help, I'll take that.

Quote:I've slept with women before. I can physically do the deed. It doesn't make me a bisexual.

If you enjoyed it then, yes, it does.

If the BSA is a "Christian" group, then I think its obvious that the state can't give them any more money or sweetheart deals. That's the real reason that they're banning openly Gay participation. But they should at least be honest about it. Banning openly Gay persons from the BSA based upon child abuse concerns is ridiculous.

(10-18-2012 11:05 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  If the BSA is a "Christian" group, then I think its obvious that the state can't give them any more money or sweetheart deals. That's the real reason that they're banning openly Gay participation. But they should at least be honest about it. Banning openly Gay persons from the BSA based upon child abuse concerns is ridiculous.

From a gay perspective, perhaps.

From the perspective of a parent concerned about the well being of their kids, probably not so ridiculous.

From your postings, what seems obvious is that to YOU, your open gayness is the most important part of your self identity that over-rides pretty much everything else. Others are not so burdened with our sexuality that it defines us and colors our opinions of everything all the way down to the internal decisions of the BSA.

How would you feel about the Girl Scouts allowing a male leader?

It's a good thing my kids won't be allowed into the Boy Scouts.

Pedophilia is not the same attraction as a normal hetero or homosexual attraction between two adults. The gender of the victim does not equate to the sexual orientation of the abuser.

(10-18-2012 10:10 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  And an openly straight man has little in common with a pedophile yet I won't let a straight man babysit my girls.

Does that go the other way too? If you had boys, would only men be allowed to babysit them?

To be clear, I'm not critiquing. Your parenting decisions are up to you and you alone.