http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872...on_LEADTop

IMO, strike 2 for the Dem ticket. On substance alone, I agree that the debate was a draw; however, Biden torpedoed himself with his smug and sarcastic tone. What an ass...

(10-12-2012 11:30 AM)miko33 Wrote:  http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872...on_LEADTop

IMO, strike 2 for the Dem ticket. On substance alone, I agree that the debate was a draw; however, Biden torpedoed himself with his smug and sarcastic tone. What an ass...

Keep on dreaming.

(10-12-2012 11:30 AM)miko33 Wrote:  http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872...on_LEADTop

IMO, strike 2 for the Dem ticket. On substance alone, I agree that the debate was a draw; however, Biden torpedoed himself with his smug and sarcastic tone. What an ass...

The republicans focusing on Bidens 'brashness' are no different than the dems focusing on the 'Big Bird' comment, though at least the big bird comment could be made into a legitimate statement on the ludicrous nature of Romneys plan to cut the deficit (though it mostly wasn't). Ryan was hamstringed by Romneys platform, and Biden pointed out the ludicrous nature of not stating the specifics of a plan when you're willing to state it's specific outcome in dollars and job creations. I expect that to continue.

Substantively the debate was a draw. Biden and Ryan both landed some solid punches, and both had some whiffs. But I think the stage-theatrics from Biden will be remembered -- and negatively so -- long after the substance of their remarks is forgotten.

More importantly, Biden's statements pinning the blame for Benghazi on "the intelligence community" will be remembered for a very long time within the IC. Biden can slime the GOP all he wants with no fear of any meaningful pushback. But sliming the CIA and (implicitly) the State Dept? Crazy Joe is f¥cking with the wrong people. If Obama does wind up getting re-elected (a 50/50 chance, IMHO), that score will definitely get settled in the second term. It might even get settled in the next 3 weeks. Bureaucrats can move pretty fast when the motive/incentive is there to do so.

I don't think so, at least to the people who matter (the undecideds). I think the attack on the lack of specifics in Romneys tax plan, and the abortion issue will be what many of them took away from this. Civility in politics isn't a thing anymore, and anyone whose vote truly matters (think swing state) has seen a negative, harsh, just depressing ad every commercial for the past few months. Bidens antics won't even be a blip on the radar, and the fact that conservatives are focusing on it means they know they were bested elsewhere (like Big Bird for the dems, except the liberals admitted Obama was bested).

(10-12-2012 02:56 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  I don't think so, at least to the people who matter (the undecideds). I think the attack on the lack of specifics in Romneys tax plan, and the abortion issue will be what many of them took away from this. Civility in politics isn't a thing anymore, and anyone whose vote truly matters (think swing state) has seen a negative, harsh, just depressing ad every commercial for the past few months. Bidens antics won't even be a blip on the radar, and the fact that conservatives are focusing on it means they know they were bested elsewhere (like Big Bird for the dems, except the liberals admitted Obama was bested).

All of the polls on the debate that I have seen basically say this thing was pretty close to a draw.

(10-12-2012 02:59 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  

(10-12-2012 02:56 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  I don't think so, at least to the people who matter (the undecideds). I think the attack on the lack of specifics in Romneys tax plan, and the abortion issue will be what many of them took away from this. Civility in politics isn't a thing anymore, and anyone whose vote truly matters (think swing state) has seen a negative, harsh, just depressing ad every commercial for the past few months. Bidens antics won't even be a blip on the radar, and the fact that conservatives are focusing on it means they know they were bested elsewhere (like Big Bird for the dems, except the liberals admitted Obama was bested).

All of the polls on the debate that I have seen basically say this thing was pretty close to a draw.

Don't conflate who won the debate with what I said, I stated which issues I think will be taken from this debate and that the republicans focusing almost exclusively on Bidens actions during the debate mean they know they were bested elsewhere. That doesn't mean I think the debate was one sided, I think Biden did win it on substance but it was nowhere near the clear win that Romney had in the first debate.

http://freebeacon.com/biden-claims-he-vo...iraq-wars/

Here is an example of Biden's substance.

(10-12-2012 02:56 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  Civility in politics isn't a thing anymore, and anyone whose vote truly matters (think swing state) has seen a negative, harsh, just depressing ad every commercial for the past few months. Bidens antics won't even be a blip on the radar

I remember the "Gore sighs" debate in 2000. As I was watching it, I was conscious of it but didn't really think it was that bad. And I definitely didn't think the media would make it into a big deal. But they did. Yes, civility is not everything in politics. But it's not nothing, either. We'll see over the next few days and weeks how the narrative is shaped about this.

As to abortion, specifically, I thought Ryan put his points across as deftly as possible. People who simply will not vote for a pro-lifer obviously are not going to vote GOP. But I don't believe Ryan lost a single vote last night that wasn't already lost to begin with. And in fairness to Biden I thought he was solid in this area, too. I couldn't help, however, but notice the discrepancy when he said Obama would have no litmus tests for SC-nominations and then "Guaranteed" that no Obama-appointed justices would vote against Roe v Wade. But I admit that is not the sort of thing that will cost Obama any meaningful # of votes.