(10-03-2012 12:33 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  If what you say is true. Then Romney should have a counterpoint to Obama's rebuttal. It's a simple game. They are just rolling out the same ad that Obama could have stood up to China 7 times. They don't even go into how he could have stood up to them.

Practically speaking there's only so much you can do in a 30 second spot. The debates are where they can both lay out more specifics (hopefully).

Quote:On a side note here I think we are screwed either way. It's a hot button issue here in Ohio but how long before we let China sell a car here? They make one called the Bricklin I believe. If we let Kia's, Honda's and all these other foreign cars. How long before we get the Bricklin? I don't have a great deal of hope for our future. We are staring at 12 dollar an hour jobs for our middle class.

Ending China's currency manipulation would help a lot. The problem is they can pay someone $5 an hour in China to do a middle class job and, in China, they can live a pretty middle class life on that. China is a different place than the US in so many ways. For example If people take out a mortgage they pay it on time, every month. It's a matter of honor. If they can't make the payment they will take the keys to the bank and turn them in. Culturally they just view the world much differently.

(10-03-2012 12:33 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  On a side note here I think we are screwed either way... I don't have a great deal of hope for our future. We are staring at 12 dollar an hour jobs for our middle class.

Without addressing the issue of China, tariffs, trade-imbalance, etc., I do agree with your broader point. I think we have simply reached a point where too many people in this country simply don't have the skills or the competence to do work that is economically valuable. I think we are headed, as a nation, for the same destiny that Europe is already grasping: about 10% at the top, comprised of the academic/media/political class, and about 90% on the bottom desperately scraping to get by. Not a recipe for stability or prosperity.

(10-03-2012 11:15 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I think I can come up with an angle will ALL can agree on. Mitt is running the most ineffective presidential campaign in modern political history. He's blasting the airwaves here in the Toledo market that Obama is soft on China. I mean this is the angle Mitt really wants to take? I mean immediately after the first ad ran Obama had an effective counter point. I mean you could literally hammer Obama on like 10 other topics. Things that would be effective to the mushy middle. I could come up with some doozies just by reading this message board. Romney just comes off as so transparent in his arguments. His campaign has come off as snarky and little. Not ready for primetime. If his campaign is any indication as how he would be as president. We're better off with Obama.

I can agree with you on almost all of this... I don't agree with the last sentence. Romney and his team have run a god awful campaign. The worst I have witnessed since Kerry or Dukakis (SIC? can't be bothered to look it up).

I don't think it's that. I refuse to write off 90% of our society. How do you do it though? So many things are going against organized labor. The right has public unions in their cross hairs and private sector unions are damn near extinct. It's just incredibly depressing. I'm going to make sure my kid's know how to day trade stocks. That can be a nice supplemental. Make sure they go to college so someone off the street can't do their job. I loved Lord Stanley's ideas on economic darwinism. We've entered that age. Social unrest is in our future.

(10-03-2012 12:52 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(10-03-2012 12:33 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  On a side note here I think we are screwed either way... I don't have a great deal of hope for our future. We are staring at 12 dollar an hour jobs for our middle class.

Without addressing the issue of China, tariffs, trade-imbalance, etc., I do agree with your broader point. I think we have simply reached a point where too many people in this country simply don't have the skills or the competence to do work that is economically valuable. I think we are headed, as a nation, for the same destiny that Europe is already grasping: about 10% at the top, comprised of the academic/media/political class, and about 90% on the bottom desperately scraping to get by. Not a recipe for stability or prosperity.

sad but true.

(10-03-2012 01:05 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I don't think it's that. I refuse to write off 90% of our society. How do you do it though? So many things are going against organized labor. The right has public unions in their cross hairs and private sector unions are damn near extinct. It's just incredibly depressing. I'm going to make sure my kid's know how to day trade stocks. That can be a nice supplemental. Make sure they go to college so someone off the street can't do their job. I loved Lord Stanley's ideas on economic darwinism. We've entered that age. Social unrest is in our future.

The mortgage crisis was just big business cashing out the (American) ATM. It was the Grand Finale for the Last Best Hope for Mankind on Earth.

Honestly,


This is going to make some of you that have been around for awhile to do a double take. I'm thinking about getting a rifle just in case society takes a dive. My wife would be ticked but Rebel had a video on here a couple of years back about a kick ass rifle that had some serious knockdown power. They compared it to a AK 47. This American rifle put the AK to shame. They sold it at an American armory that is about an hour away from my house in Port Clinton.

(10-03-2012 12:52 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(10-03-2012 12:33 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  On a side note here I think we are screwed either way... I don't have a great deal of hope for our future. We are staring at 12 dollar an hour jobs for our middle class.

Without addressing the issue of China, tariffs, trade-imbalance, etc., I do agree with your broader point. I think we have simply reached a point where too many people in this country simply don't have the skills or the competence to do work that is economically valuable. I think we are headed, as a nation, for the same destiny that Europe is already grasping: about 10% at the top, comprised of the academic/media/political class, and about 90% on the bottom desperately scraping to get by. Not a recipe for stability or prosperity.

(10-03-2012 01:05 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I don't think it's that. I refuse to write off 90% of our society. How do you do it though? So many things are going against organized labor. The right has public unions in their cross hairs and private sector unions are damn near extinct. It's just incredibly depressing. I'm going to make sure my kid's know how to day trade stocks. That can be a nice supplemental. Make sure they go to college so someone off the street can't do their job. I loved Lord Stanley's ideas on economic darwinism. We've entered that age. Social unrest is in our future.

To me it's very simple. In the 1950s and the 1960s the USA was almost universally regaded as the best place to invest in the world. We had a vibrant economy and a strong and growing middle class.
Today we are fairly far down the list as far as best places to invest. And we are greatly and justifiably concerned that our middle class is going away.
You have to create wealth before you can distribute it. And the more evenly we try to distribute wealth, the more we discourage wealth creation.

(10-03-2012 01:05 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I don't think it's that. I refuse to write off 90% of our society. How do you do it though?

It's not a matter of you or me or anyone else "writing off" 90% or 9% or 0.009% of our society. It is a matter of how many jobs are available at a given salary, and how many people are ready, willing, and able to perform them.

Quote:So many things are going against organized labor. The right has public unions in their cross hairs and private sector unions are damn near extinct.

Just for the record, I absolutely draw a clear, bright line between public unions and private unions. I know you don't see it this way, but to me it is not just a comparison of apples and oranges, it is a comparison of apples and Macs. I do not have public unions in my "cross hairs" but I do think they play a destructive and negative force in our society. The essential veto-power they exerted over much of public policy explains a lot of how we got into this mess in the first place.

More broadly, I think organized labor has, to a large degree, made its own bed and now is discovering how uncomfortable it is to sleep in it. Even voting Democrat just postpones the inevitable for another decade or so, and will make the reckoning all the more painful and bitter, when it comes.

I for one am glad we have the ability to video everything. It keeps the police from abusing their power more than they already do and political candidates always have to be on their game which is impossible so we get to see and hear more about what they really think. Video doesn't lie(usually) and when referring to public servants and corporate drones(I'm one of these) you just can't get away with anything. I like it. It forces everyone to treat everyone else better or face the consequences.

(10-03-2012 01:20 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-03-2012 12:52 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(10-03-2012 12:33 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  On a side note here I think we are screwed either way... I don't have a great deal of hope for our future. We are staring at 12 dollar an hour jobs for our middle class.

Without addressing the issue of China, tariffs, trade-imbalance, etc., I do agree with your broader point. I think we have simply reached a point where too many people in this country simply don't have the skills or the competence to do work that is economically valuable. I think we are headed, as a nation, for the same destiny that Europe is already grasping: about 10% at the top, comprised of the academic/media/political class, and about 90% on the bottom desperately scraping to get by. Not a recipe for stability or prosperity.

(10-03-2012 01:05 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I don't think it's that. I refuse to write off 90% of our society. How do you do it though? So many things are going against organized labor. The right has public unions in their cross hairs and private sector unions are damn near extinct. It's just incredibly depressing. I'm going to make sure my kid's know how to day trade stocks. That can be a nice supplemental. Make sure they go to college so someone off the street can't do their job. I loved Lord Stanley's ideas on economic darwinism. We've entered that age. Social unrest is in our future.

To me it's very simple. In the 1950s and the 1960s the USA was almost universally regaded as the best place to invest in the world. We had a vibrant economy and a strong and growing middle class.
Today we are fairly far down the list as far as best places to invest. And we are greatly and justifiably concerned that our middle class is going away.
You have to create wealth before you can distribute it. And the more evenly we try to distribute wealth, the more we discourage wealth creation.

In the past....Dirt poor immigrants rose to wealthy status. Why...They saw America as an opportunity and took advantage of it through hard work and innovation. They had to do it because of the rumbles in their stomachs. Today...hard work is going to mail box and getting your check. Why work hard when prosperity is given to you without having to do a damn thing.

Tonight....My wife came in bitching. She said she witnessed 2 women at the Health Department picking up their WIC vouchers. They were comparing their new I Phones. Both left and got in almost brand new vehicles. THIS is what happens every day all over America in regard to our "poor".