(09-20-2012 11:50 AM)Smaug Wrote:  

(09-20-2012 11:47 AM)Max Power Wrote:  Many conservatives want to tinker with the system, which is reasonable. But many want to scrap it, and I'm saying screw those people.

Many liberals want to tinker with the system, which is reasonable. but many want a cradle to grave nanny state, and I'm saying screw those people.

Well, there's a dandy piece of fluff to run with to prop up ones own misconceptions!

But I can play that as well: I hear many conservatives are total ********!

(09-20-2012 11:59 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I hear many conservatives are total ********!

Could it be? Harry Reid I presume? LOL

0 tell us what else you have no proof or knowledge of wise one.

(09-20-2012 11:35 AM)Max Power Wrote:  

(09-20-2012 08:58 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(09-19-2012 06:50 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  

(09-18-2012 11:59 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(09-18-2012 11:35 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  Conservatives are trying to avoid a situation where only 40% of the population pays taxes and the other 60% live off those taxes. That's where we're headed with Obama and the Progressives, and it's a bad place to go.

Dipstick, poor people currently pay a greater percentage of their income in overall taxes than the middle class and the top 1%. Yes, it's not federal income tax, but how much more do you want these folks to give?

The "poor" have cars, air conditioning, flat screen TV's, cell phones, food stamps, free medical care .... they live like the upper class in most other countries. They're not the abused, downtrodden "victims" of corporate America ("Republicans") that liberals like to portray.

I just want everyone to pay a fair flat tax.

Exactly. The poorest in America are in the top 1% of wage earners worldwide. Do I want better for them?...yes...but income redistribution HOLDS THEM DOWN...not brings them up.

I firmly believe that HR 25 would do more to help the poor and middle class more than anything ever done. It would also make America again the place business flocked to...not run from. That alone would end the unemployment problem and add millions to the tax base. The FT plus some rational spending cuts would go a long way in creating debt reduction, economic growth and prosperity.

Source?

Giving the poor money holds them down? So they'd be better off scavenging for food in the woods and spending their days trying to stab fish with a stick to meet their daily protein intake requirements?

Some of you poor-bashers might honestly believe this which is fine, but for the rest of you, I hope there's a special place in hell. You'd take food from the mouths of children and roofs from over their heads to give billionaires tax breaks.

A classic Stewart segment on this--

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-au...de-is-over

Some of us have neighbors who have had the ability to work yet chose not to because they could get assistance. I could take you to no less than 5 such households within a 5 mile radius of where I live and I live in a rural community. Some of us have sat on grand juries and watched folks come thru who have purchased prescription drugs with Medicaid only to turn around and sell them for cash. Guess you could consider that a taxpayer funded business start up.
There is a lot of corruption and abuse in these programs and you don't have to look hard to find it. It's like most government sponsored programs it started out with good intentions but was expanded beyond all reason. Nobody wants to see anyone starve and to say otherwise is foolish but we also don't want to see generation after generation on these programs. We are spending ourselves into oblivion and hard choices have to be made. The longer we put it off the harder it's going to be on the ones who have been relying on these programs. And you can't tax yourself out of that inevitable result.

(09-20-2012 11:59 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(09-20-2012 11:50 AM)Smaug Wrote:  

(09-20-2012 11:47 AM)Max Power Wrote:  Many conservatives want to tinker with the system, which is reasonable. But many want to scrap it, and I'm saying screw those people.

Many liberals want to tinker with the system, which is reasonable. but many want a cradle to grave nanny state, and I'm saying screw those people.

Well, there's a dandy piece of fluff to run with to prop up ones own misconceptions!

But I can play that as well: I hear many conservatives are total ********!

So, you're letting Max's dandy piece of fluff slide?

(09-20-2012 11:50 AM)Smaug Wrote:  

(09-20-2012 11:47 AM)Max Power Wrote:  Many conservatives want to tinker with the system, which is reasonable. But many want to scrap it, and I'm saying screw those people.

Many liberals want to tinker with the system, which is reasonable. but many want a cradle to grave nanny state, and I'm saying screw those people.

Well I like those people, because at least their hearts are in the right place. I can't say that about the people who want to tear the rug from under the poor.

Quote:Some of us have neighbors who have had the ability to work yet chose not to because they could get assistance. I could take you to no less than 5 such households within a 5 mile radius of where I live and I live in a rural community. Some of us have sat on grand juries and watched folks come thru who have purchased prescription drugs with Medicaid only to turn around and sell them for cash. Guess you could consider that a taxpayer funded business start up.
There is a lot of corruption and abuse in these programs and you don't have to look hard to find it. It's like most government sponsored programs it started out with good intentions but was expanded beyond all reason. Nobody wants to see anyone starve and to say otherwise is foolish but we also don't want to see generation after generation on these programs. We are spending ourselves into oblivion and hard choices have to be made. The longer we put it off the harder it's going to be on the ones who have been relying on these programs. And you can't tax yourself out of that inevitable result.

I said I don't mind people who want to make the system work better. Owl keeps mentioning Friedman's negative income tax, which is reasonable and something I don't even object to. But the yelling at the GOP debates when Wolf Blitzer asked if we should let someone without insurance die, and this manufactured outrage from the GOP about redistribution which attacks the very idea of basic aid for needy itself, at its core, and the disdain for the bottom 47% by lifelong plutocrats is repulsive to me.

(09-20-2012 01:27 PM)Max Power Wrote:  their hearts are in the right place.

No they aren't.

They are anathema to the whole concept of autonomy and achievement.

"I'll always take care of you, never mind that you'll always be beholden to me."

They're as power-hungry as anybody. And when someone actually does accomplish something, he has his president telling him he didn't build that.

(09-20-2012 01:27 PM)Max Power Wrote:  

(09-20-2012 11:50 AM)Smaug Wrote:  

(09-20-2012 11:47 AM)Max Power Wrote:  Many conservatives want to tinker with the system, which is reasonable. But many want to scrap it, and I'm saying screw those people.

Many liberals want to tinker with the system, which is reasonable. but many want a cradle to grave nanny state, and I'm saying screw those people.

Well I like those people, because at least their hearts are in the right place. I can't say that about the people who want to tear the rug from under the poor.

Quote:Some of us have neighbors who have had the ability to work yet chose not to because they could get assistance. I could take you to no less than 5 such households within a 5 mile radius of where I live and I live in a rural community. Some of us have sat on grand juries and watched folks come thru who have purchased prescription drugs with Medicaid only to turn around and sell them for cash. Guess you could consider that a taxpayer funded business start up.
There is a lot of corruption and abuse in these programs and you don't have to look hard to find it. It's like most government sponsored programs it started out with good intentions but was expanded beyond all reason. Nobody wants to see anyone starve and to say otherwise is foolish but we also don't want to see generation after generation on these programs. We are spending ourselves into oblivion and hard choices have to be made. The longer we put it off the harder it's going to be on the ones who have been relying on these programs. And you can't tax yourself out of that inevitable result.

I said I don't mind people who want to make the system work better. Owl keeps mentioning Friedman's negative income tax, which is reasonable and something I don't even object to. But the yelling at the GOP debates when Wolf Blitzer asked if we should let someone without insurance die, and this manufactured outrage from the GOP about redistribution which attacks the very idea of basic aid for needy itself, at its core, and the disdain for the bottom 47% by lifelong plutocrats is repulsive to me.

It's not just a matter of making it work better it's a matter of making it sustainable. Anytime anyone speaks of reforming social programs they are villified. Nevermind that these programs will all eventually collapse without reform.

(09-20-2012 01:27 PM)Max Power Wrote:  

(09-20-2012 11:50 AM)Smaug Wrote:  

(09-20-2012 11:47 AM)Max Power Wrote:  Many conservatives want to tinker with the system, which is reasonable. But many want to scrap it, and I'm saying screw those people.

Many liberals want to tinker with the system, which is reasonable. but many want a cradle to grave nanny state, and I'm saying screw those people.

Well I like those people, because at least their hearts are in the right place. I can't say that about the people who want to tear the rug from under the poor.

Quote:Some of us have neighbors who have had the ability to work yet chose not to because they could get assistance. I could take you to no less than 5 such households within a 5 mile radius of where I live and I live in a rural community. Some of us have sat on grand juries and watched folks come thru who have purchased prescription drugs with Medicaid only to turn around and sell them for cash. Guess you could consider that a taxpayer funded business start up.
There is a lot of corruption and abuse in these programs and you don't have to look hard to find it. It's like most government sponsored programs it started out with good intentions but was expanded beyond all reason. Nobody wants to see anyone starve and to say otherwise is foolish but we also don't want to see generation after generation on these programs. We are spending ourselves into oblivion and hard choices have to be made. The longer we put it off the harder it's going to be on the ones who have been relying on these programs. And you can't tax yourself out of that inevitable result.

I said I don't mind people who want to make the system work better. Owl keeps mentioning Friedman's negative income tax, which is reasonable and something I don't even object to. But the yelling at the GOP debates when Wolf Blitzer asked if we should let someone without insurance die, and this manufactured outrage from the GOP about redistribution which attacks the very idea of basic aid for needy itself, at its core, and the disdain for the bottom 47% by lifelong plutocrats is repulsive to me.

Max...I actually agree with most of what you are saying. I have one question though. Does the welfare state make able bodied people dependent upon it? If the answer is yes? ...then we have common ground to work from to fix that. I don't hear the Left talking about wanting to fix this. All I hear is them seeking to expand it.