(09-12-2012 08:48 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  I've known *good* teachers who spend the whole summer in an RV with their teacher spouse driving around the country. And that's fine but the reality is that the people who pay the teachers work more work hours than teachers and in Cities like Chicago they do it for far less money.

I can only speak for the 2 teachers I know (mom (retired) and sister). Both of them work(ed) considerably more hours than me per year. I work in IT, not exactly known for limited hours... lots and lots of extra time at night and on weekends.

(09-12-2012 01:05 PM)mlb Wrote:  

(09-11-2012 04:29 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  I love reading the statists in action. So parents have to pay, and yet they arent keeping up their end of the bargain? Classic statist mentality, the people work for the state.

So you think the kids should be parented by the teachers? That is what happens in inner city schools.

Your straw man arguments are transparent to me mlb.

Education has been twisted, and the myriad of problems were predictable predicted. Pretending that there is only a choice between two bad plans however, is a logical fallacy. The solutions are not necessarily simple, nor are they easily recognized by people who can't imagine beyond their own simple experiences.

Will they happen? Probably not, b/c there are too many people vested in patching a bad system.

(09-12-2012 01:13 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Your straw man arguments are transparent to me mlb.

Education has been twisted, and the myriad of problems were predictable predicted. Pretending that there is only a choice between two bad plans however, is a logical fallacy. The solutions are not necessarily simple, nor are they easily recognized by people who can't imagine beyond their own simple experiences.

Will they happen? Probably not, b/c there are too many people vested in patching a bad system.

Straw man? No. Just realistic. You take away the public schools and you do NOT get a replacement near the quality. You end up with crappy private schools whom are not accountable (look at all the issues with the charter schools in the inner cities in Ohio). I'm of the belief that the best opportunity for those kids is through the public school system. Anything that requires any effort from the crappy parents of the inner city kids is a no go... they'll just leave their kids on the streets for their entire life.

(09-12-2012 01:21 PM)mlb Wrote:  Straw man? No. Just realistic. You take away the public schools and you do NOT get a replacement near the quality. You end up with crappy private schools whom are not accountable (look at all the issues with the charter schools in the inner cities in Ohio). I'm of the belief that the best opportunity for those kids is through the public school system. Anything that requires any effort from the crappy parents of the inner city kids is a no go... they'll just leave their kids on the streets for their entire life.

Bandaids on top of bandaids. Progressives (and that includes a lot of teachers over the decades) have cast their vision of a shiny Utopia...and this is the result.

The patchwork solutions that you abhor are no worse than the status quo that you defend. They're all a mess. I'm just sick of teachers demanding more money to keep making the same mess, and denying any responsibility for the situation.

Teachers continue to get more and more crap dumped on them. They are expected to now raise their students. They also are required to get more education than ever before, let alone continuing education (must be college courses), and are not getting paid any more for these extra expendatures. They are given more responsibility than ever before but not paid more... every time I've been given more responsibility at work I've been given a raise.

(09-12-2012 02:29 PM)mlb Wrote:  Teachers continue to get more and more crap dumped on them.

Boo hoo.

Quote: They are expected to now raise their students.

No, they injected themselves into the families and got stuck raising them. Plus past genrations of teachers did a poor job of teaching, so those students now parents are poor at their responsibilities. Public schools were founded on progressive ideals, and while those have been subject to interpretation, the fact is that they create a caste of serfs. Current teachers are reaping what was sown in the past by their mentors. But, they aren't willing to change the system, so they're finding that reality can be a *****.

Quote:They also are required to get more education than ever before, let alone continuing education (must be college courses)

Again, teachers loved the credentialism when it served as protectionism. And you better believe they love pulling out the "But I have a masters degree!" when discussions center on pay raises (or cuts). So they brought that on themselves too.

Quote:, and are not getting paid any more for these extra expendatures.

Not now they aren't...but it yielded a big payoff when their wages moved from below median to above. They just want to keep that slope continuing (and Chicago teachers' demands prove that point) despite the fact that it's an impossibility.

Quote:They are given more responsibility than ever before but not paid more... every time I've been given more responsibility at work I've been given a raise.

As usual, they are free to move to another career. If the law of supply and demand is so repugnant to them, then they shouldn't be teaching as they don't have a grasp on reality.

(09-12-2012 02:29 PM)mlb Wrote:  Teachers continue to get more and more crap dumped on them. They are expected to now raise their students.

Now, That's an issue that justifies a strike.

(09-12-2012 02:59 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(09-12-2012 02:29 PM)mlb Wrote:  Teachers continue to get more and more crap dumped on them. They are expected to now raise their students.

Now, That's an issue that justifies a strike.

That is not an issue they are allowed to strike per IL law.

Guess we are bordering on an Illegal Strike by the Union.

Guess Rahm might pull a Reagan soon and fire 'em all!

(09-12-2012 03:20 PM)NIUAlum90 Wrote:  That is not an issue they are allowed to strike per IL law.

Guess we are bordering on an Illegal Strike by the Union.

Guess Rahm might pull a Reagan soon and fire 'em all!

Their contract is up... in theory, they aren't striking. Just not working without a contract.

(09-12-2012 02:59 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(09-12-2012 02:29 PM)mlb Wrote:  Teachers continue to get more and more crap dumped on them. They are expected to now raise their students.

Now, That's an issue that justifies a strike.

Except the only ones making that claim are the teachers. Maybe if they would mind their own business, everyone would be happier.

(09-12-2012 10:49 AM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  

(09-12-2012 10:35 AM)RobertN Wrote:  You are an idiot.

Rob, why not run along and be useless somewhere else. The adults are trying to have a conversation here.

Slugs can't run.

(09-12-2012 02:29 PM)mlb Wrote:  Teachers continue to get more and more crap dumped on them. They are expected to now raise their students. They also are required to get more education than ever before, let alone continuing education (must be college courses), and are not getting paid any more for these extra expendatures. They are given more responsibility than ever before but not paid more... every time I've been given more responsibility at work I've been given a raise.

Agreed...but...THIS has more to do with fear of losing one's job over poor performance than money. I bet you loose your job for poor performance.

Article from Cato.

How Do Teachers' Unions Affect Public School Outcomes?

I'm certainly not anti teacher, as I was one. I know many great teachers and also a number that would have been better served doing something else with their lives.

This article touches on one aspect that the unions affect - competition. This is the issue that the unions want to avoid at all costs, so they fight vouchers, charter schools, etc.

Quote:It is a system that only makes sense if the goal of public education is to create a protected class of government employees. If we want a system that will serve the needs of children, then all schools should have to compete for the privilege of serving each and every student, and their revenues should depend on parents’ estimation of the quality of that service… just as happens right now in the vastly more efficient and responsive independent education sector.

It fits the leftist ideology perfectly. They are for choice (abortion) but not in education. Have to keep them all trapped in failing public schools.
It's for the children, you know. Have to produce another set of public school educated drones all ready for a job in the government.

It appears the striking teachers and their "friends" are all color coordinated in red. Red t-shirts. Red signs. Red bandanas.

Doesn't red have a certain significance? Doesn't it connote a particular ideology leaning to one extreme side of the political spectrum?

Hmmm ....

Chicago Public Schools Celebrate Third Straight Day Without Any Student Violence

http://www.theonion.com/articles/chicago...-da,29538/

(09-13-2012 09:53 AM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  Chicago Public Schools Celebrate Third Straight Day Without Any Student Violence

http://www.theonion.com/articles/chicago...-da,29538/

I thought of this myself, should have guessed the Onion would have been all over the story.

(09-12-2012 07:09 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  Article from Cato.

How Do Teachers' Unions Affect Public School Outcomes?

I'm certainly not anti teacher, as I was one. I know many great teachers and also a number that would have been better served doing something else with their lives.

This article touches on one aspect that the unions affect - competition. This is the issue that the unions want to avoid at all costs, so they fight vouchers, charter schools, etc.

Quote:It is a system that only makes sense if the goal of public education is to create a protected class of government employees. If we want a system that will serve the needs of children, then all schools should have to compete for the privilege of serving each and every student, and their revenues should depend on parents’ estimation of the quality of that service… just as happens right now in the vastly more efficient and responsive independent education sector.

It fits the leftist ideology perfectly. They are for choice (abortion) but not in education. Have to keep them all trapped in failing public schools.
It's for the children, you know. Have to produce another set of public school educated drones all ready for a job in the government.

Oh good lord. First Torchy now you.

What are you babbling about? If you have a point to make, then do it.

How about reacting to the article that I just posted or is that too much for you?