(09-04-2012 05:02 PM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  The Carrier Dome is a football stadium. If Syracuse couldn't draw 20k basketball fans a game the home court advantage would be sh@t. Because it's a football stadium... Designed for football. Basketball had to conform to it.

He knows. He is just trying to start something.

(09-04-2012 04:12 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 04:02 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 02:30 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  No partial members. Period.

This.

Why? It the member adds value to the conference, then I am for it.

if the member adds value to the conference then join all in. otherwise they are subtracting from the conference in the non-member sports

(09-04-2012 05:07 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 04:57 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 04:12 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 04:02 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 02:30 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  No partial members. Period.

This.

Why? It the member adds value to the conference, then I am for it. Obviously I am against going overbaord and having a TON of partial members, but 1/17 as a basketball member and 1/17 as a football member won't complicated the adminitration of the conference at all...especially sicne the two votes will balance out.

The absolute only thing that I can determine that this Godforsaken conference has got right since 1953 is the fact that they require full membership for all member schools. If the partial member model worked we wouldn't be saddled with having to play every other year in a yankee basketball arena in a recruiting wasteland.

Sounds like someone is bitter about adding Syracuse ... and losing the civil war :)

Damn right I'm bitter about adding a basketball school when we had a football problem.
The Civil War is over, but sadly the carpetbaggers are still flowing South. We keep hoping and praying they come to understand that I95 has northbound lanes as well.

Quote:The #2 and #4 teams in the nation play in a hybrid conference that, overall, has won more championships than any other conference, has a higher payout than any other conference, and is based in a state with more talent than any other state. Hybrids can't be that bad.

Hybrids are only bad when there is voting gridlock (i.e. like in the BIG EAST). They work really well when there isn't (i.e. the Pac-12 and the ACC plus ND, Navy, and GU).

The 12 members that give the Pac12 it's name are all members in the two money making sports. Nobody other than someone who is trying desperately (and failing I might add) to prove their point considers the Pac12 a hybrid conference because San Diego State plays soccer under their banner.

(09-04-2012 05:18 PM)Laettners Legacy Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 04:12 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 04:02 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 02:30 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  No partial members. Period.

This.

Why? It the member adds value to the conference, then I am for it.

if the member adds value to the conference then join all in. otherwise they are subtracting from the conference in the non-member sports

Not if there is another partial member to fill in the gap. Combined they are the equal of a full member.

I don't believe in blanket rules. Navy as a full member wouldn't be good, bc Navy Only brings academics and football. It would water everything else down. Georgetown as a full member would also fail, because GU plays football on a FCS level, so it would water football down. However, Navy football and academics, combined with Georgetown basketball, academics, and olympic sports takes the best of both worlds.

The only losers are Navy and GU, because they would be making more with an "all or nothing" policy. But since, the ACC's revenue sharing > the BIG EAST's rev sharing, even they win compared to keeping the status quo.

However, much of what makes this combo attractive is that is substantially increases the likelihood of ND joining. W/ ND, I would add them, but w/o ND, I wouldn't.

(09-04-2012 01:47 PM)orangefan Wrote:  I doubt the NCAA will be allowing a 4 team conference playoff anytime soon. As a football member, ND would be required to play a minimum of 7 ACC games (vs division opponents). They may insist on limiting their commitment to 7 games (possibly with 4 at home), to allow open dates to play their national schedule (USC, MSU, Purdue, etc.). If other conference members play 9 generally, that would mean two would be limited to 8 conference games. It's a scheduling problem that I am not sure most members would have the stomach for.

Pods would allow all schools to play ND on a rotating basis without having ND play any crossovers. ND pod might need to be ND, Navy, BC and Pitt.

The thoughts regarding bringing a Catholic school aren't bad if you invited ND for hoops only. As much as I would love to have GU, the ACC is already strong in DC. It might be better to target St. John's as number 16 to go after NYC. With SU, ND and SJU, ACC hoops might actually be ahead of the nBe in hoops-crazy NYC.

Why not just stay in the Big East and Hockey East for other sports and stay independent in football?

(09-04-2012 05:24 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 05:07 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 04:57 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 04:12 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 04:02 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  This.

Why? It the member adds value to the conference, then I am for it. Obviously I am against going overbaord and having a TON of partial members, but 1/17 as a basketball member and 1/17 as a football member won't complicated the adminitration of the conference at all...especially sicne the two votes will balance out.

The absolute only thing that I can determine that this Godforsaken conference has got right since 1953 is the fact that they require full membership for all member schools. If the partial member model worked we wouldn't be saddled with having to play every other year in a yankee basketball arena in a recruiting wasteland.

Sounds like someone is bitter about adding Syracuse ... and losing the civil war :)

Damn right I'm bitter about adding a basketball school when we had a football problem.
The Civil War is over, but sadly the carpetbaggers are still flowing South. We keep hoping and praying they come to understand that I95 has northbound lanes as well.

Quote:The #2 and #4 teams in the nation play in a hybrid conference that, overall, has won more championships than any other conference, has a higher payout than any other conference, and is based in a state with more talent than any other state. Hybrids can't be that bad.

Hybrids are only bad when there is voting gridlock (i.e. like in the BIG EAST). They work really well when there isn't (i.e. the Pac-12 and the ACC plus ND, Navy, and GU).

The 12 members that give the Pac12 it's name are all members in the two money making sports. Nobody other than someone who is trying desperately (and failing I might add) to prove their point considers the Pac12 a hybrid conference because San Diego State plays soccer under their banner.

The south? It's called occupied territory/that place between us and our retirement homes :) and I can see why you would be upset with the addition of a school in the top 15 in all-time football wins. We broke the heisman color barrier. I bet that didn't go over too well in the parts of south carolina that use the term "carper baggers."

Sooooooo... the pac-12 isn't a hybrid conference despite the fact that it has non-full members? You do realize that the Pac-12 has enjoyed most of its athletic success in sports where the partial members have participated, right? ...but don't let facts get in the way of an irrational belief.

(09-04-2012 05:36 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Why not just stay in the Big East and Hockey East for other sports and stay independent in football?

I think that they will for the near future. However, other conference are catching up to ND's TV revenue, and are making additional money from conference champ games. plus, I heard ND was having trouble with bowl games. They are stuck going to BIG EAST bowl games once every 3-4 years (and maybe more often that that).

Leaving the BIG EAST for the ACC would put them in a better academic conference, with better olympic sports, and improve their bowl tie-ins.

It might even increase their exposure, bc there is talk about the BIG EAST and ND having seperate, but related media contracts, where ND would get its games on NBC, but they would be sandwhiched between BIG EAST games. Being stuck between Rutgers v. BSU, and UL v. Houston on NBC can't be good for ratings, when the alternative is being between Clemson v. GT, and FSU v. VPI on ABC.

Also, since the money gap is closing, it may get to the point, where it might be in ND's financial best interest to jump. 15 years ago, ND was king. Now, I would be willing to bet OU, Texas, 'Bama, every B1G school, and maybe LSU, UGA, and UF make more TV money than ND.

(09-04-2012 02:30 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  No partial members. Period.

I couldn't have said it better.

+1

Besides I really don't want Notre Dame in the ACC.

It is still not worth it to ND to give up its identity by joining a football conference.

So what if it doesn't make way more money than everyone else?

The goal is to make ENOUGH money to remain viable as an independent.

Minor bowls? With a playoff these exhibition games are more meaningless than ever before.

Why would ND care what teams play on NBC ?

For twenty years, it has been bowling and golf on NBC besides ND games on Saturday.

You guys have no idea how strong the sentiment is at ND to never join a football conference.

The 35,000 ND fans who traveled to Dublin, Ireland will tell you that ND is a unique brand and should never join a conference.

That showing may help them with bowl ties rather than joining a league.

(09-04-2012 06:13 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 02:30 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  No partial members. Period.

I couldn't have said it better.

+1

Besides I really don't want Notre Dame in the ACC.

Weren't you the big "ND to the ACC" proponent?

I am glad to see that we finally agree..... :)

(09-04-2012 06:21 PM)TerryD Wrote:  It is still not worth it to ND to give up its identity by joining a football conference.

So what if it doesn't make way more money than everyone else?

The goal is to make ENOUGH money to remain viable as an independent.

Minor bowls? With a playoff these exhibition games are more meaningless than ever before.

Why would ND care what teams play on NBC ?

For twenty years, it has been bowling and golf on NBC besides ND games on Saturday.

You guys have no idea how strong the sentiment is at ND to never join a football conference.

The 35,000 ND fans who traveled to Dublin, Ireland will tell you that ND is a unique brand and should never join a conference.

That showing may help them with bowl ties rather than joining a league.

1. Is ND still viable? Unless I am mistaken, ND has won a NC roudly every decade from the 20's to 1990, but hasn't won one since '88 and have been mighty inconsistent as of late. Money + publicity = wins in college football. Look at Texas, Alabama, and Oklahoma State (which was a weak program until T. Boone Pickens poured money into it)

2. Maybe, so it is all that more important to land a good one.

3. ND cares, because it affects ND's ratings, which affects ND's payout/money in future contracts...that and bragging rights.

4. ...and the ratings have gone down every year for at least the last decade....... maybe ND should mix things up, no?

5. At least one, and I think two of your former AD's have spoken out in favor of joining the ACC. I guess they weren't on the plane to Ireland.

I think ND will do what's best for ND, and eventually that will mean joining a conference. Like I said, it won't be this year, but ND will eventually join a conference.

(09-04-2012 05:18 PM)Laettners Legacy Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 04:12 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 04:02 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 02:30 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  No partial members. Period.

This.

Why? It the member adds value to the conference, then I am for it.

if the member adds value to the conference then join all in. otherwise they are subtracting from the conference in the non-member sports

I've been trying to do the math on a partial membership, and here is what I've come up with.

The nBe is rumored to be looking at $3 million per year for tv rights for the basketball members. For ND or any partial member to make the move, they would need at least $4-5 million for their hoops tv rights. Existing members are going to need at least $0.5 million each per year from the deal. This suggests ND alone would have to add $11-12 million per year just from basketball or ND and a friend would need to add $15-17 million. For one team, the ACC would get 16 +/- basketball games including 10 incremental conference games. For two teams, 32 +/- games, 10 of which would be conference games. That equates to $0.5 million per game. For comparison, FOX is paying the B12 about $2 million per game for tier 2 football rights, a "one and done" annual appearance in the NCAA basketball tournament is worth around $1 million per year, and as noted the entire season's rights for a nBe member's hoops games is worth $3 million+. It seems likely to be somewhere between a close call and a stretch for basketball games to get $0.5 million each in tv value. Really, not worth the bother.

(09-04-2012 07:19 PM)orangefan Wrote:  I've been trying to do the math on a partial membership, and here is what I've come up with.

The nBe is rumored to be looking at $3 million per year for tv rights for the basketball members. For ND or any partial member to make the move, they would need at least $4-5 million for their hoops tv rights. Existing members are going to need at least $0.5 million each per year from the deal. This suggests ND alone would have to add $11-12 million per year just from basketball or ND and a friend would need to add $15-17 million. For one team, the ACC would get 16 +/- basketball games including 10 incremental conference games. For two teams, 32 +/- games, 10 of which would be conference games. That equates to $0.5 million per game. For comparison, FOX is paying the B12 about $2 million per game for tier 2 football rights, a "one and done" annual appearance in the NCAA basketball tournament is worth around $1 million per year, and as noted the entire season's rights for a nBe member's hoops games is worth $3 million+. It seems likely to be somewhere between a close call and a stretch for basketball games to get $0.5 million each in tv value. Really, not worth the bother.

ND bball alone probs isn't worth the bother, but ND bball with a promise for ND football to join at a set date later down the road and heavy penalties for failing to join would be worth the bother.

My point about partial members was that I think Navy+GU>UCONN>RU*, and I think that Navy fball + GU > Navy all sports, and I think that Navy fball + GU > Georgetown all sports. So, rather than arbitrarily declare a "no partial membership rule," in limited circumstances, I would accept partial members, so long as they add more value than the alternative (i.e. UCONN, RU, or Navy as full members)

However, I think that at least 75% of the conference should be full members at all times (so partial members can de-rail any votes), and I think that all conference members should have to include their top revenue-producing team in the conference, unless they are in the process of transitioning into the conference, and a firm date has been set for full membership, and there are heavy penalties (i.e. the "Notre Dame rule"), or they are grandfathered out (i.e. if GU upgrades its football team and it makes more money that GU basketball.... I dont want GU football in the ACC....EVER)

*I don't think UL will ever be in the ACC, because the ACC voted WVU down, so clearly academics carry a lot of weight in the ACC, and UL doesn't have great academics.

(09-04-2012 06:23 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 06:13 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 02:30 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  No partial members. Period.

I couldn't have said it better.

+1

Besides I really don't want Notre Dame in the ACC.

Weren't you the big "ND to the ACC" proponent?

I am glad to see that we finally agree..... :)

I still think Notre Dame joining the ACC is inevitable. I just don't want to have to put up with the attitude of "some" Notre Dame fans.

I'll play along with this. I see a potential problem in basketball scheduling with this setup. This would make the most sense...

Boston College
Notre Dame
Pittsburgh
Syracuse

Georgetown
Maryland
Virginia
Virginia Tech

Duke
North Carolina
NC State
Wake Forest

Clemson
Florida State
Georgia Tech
Miami

If you play everyone in your pod twice, and everyone else once, you end up with 18 games. Which matches up perfectly with what the ACC already has in place. The main problem would be Syracuse and Georgetown not playing twice every year. Not that the Big LEast has cared about scheduling them twice every year...

(09-04-2012 06:34 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 06:21 PM)TerryD Wrote:  It is still not worth it to ND to give up its identity by joining a football conference.

So what if it doesn't make way more money than everyone else?

The goal is to make ENOUGH money to remain viable as an independent.

Minor bowls? With a playoff these exhibition games are more meaningless than ever before.

Why would ND care what teams play on NBC ?

For twenty years, it has been bowling and golf on NBC besides ND games on Saturday.

You guys have no idea how strong the sentiment is at ND to never join a football conference.

The 35,000 ND fans who traveled to Dublin, Ireland will tell you that ND is a unique brand and should never join a conference.

That showing may help them with bowl ties rather than joining a league.

1. Is ND still viable? Unless I am mistaken, ND has won a NC roudly every decade from the 20's to 1990, but hasn't won one since '88 and have been mighty inconsistent as of late. Money + publicity = wins in college football. Look at Texas, Alabama, and Oklahoma State (which was a weak program until T. Boone Pickens poured money into it)

2. Maybe, so it is all that more important to land a good one.

3. ND cares, because it affects ND's ratings, which affects ND's payout/money in future contracts...that and bragging rights.

4. ...and the ratings have gone down every year for at least the last decade....... maybe ND should mix things up, no?

5. At least one, and I think two of your former AD's have spoken out in favor of joining the ACC. I guess they weren't on the plane to Ireland.

I think ND will do what's best for ND, and eventually that will mean joining a conference. Like I said, it won't be this year, but ND will eventually join a conference.

Is ND still viable??

ND currently gets $15 million a year for its home games from NBC and has since 2010. (it used to be $9 million a year before this last renewal).

That contract (up on 2015) is currently being negotiated for a renewal.

My prediction is $20-25 million.

The ACC currently gets $17 million per team, the last I saw.

ND also has an NBC national contract for its home hockey games and a national radio contract for football and basketball.

It sells out its 80,795 seat stadium for every home game.

The money is very good for ND.

Publicity? Are you kidding?

Fans of other schools ***** all the time about the publicity ND gets.

I disagree with you. People said the same thing 40 years ago and were wrong.

Only time (lots of time, I think) will tell.


P.S. If ND is this inconsistent, fading TV draw and "non-viable" (as you describe) school, why in the world do you want them to join the ACC so badly???

(09-04-2012 08:26 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 06:23 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 06:13 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 02:30 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  No partial members. Period.

I couldn't have said it better.

+1

Besides I really don't want Notre Dame in the ACC.

Weren't you the big "ND to the ACC" proponent?

I am glad to see that we finally agree..... :)

I still think Notre Dame joining the ACC is inevitable. I just don't want to have to put up with the attitude of "some" Notre Dame fans.

Awww, you hurt my feelings. :)

(09-04-2012 07:45 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(09-04-2012 07:19 PM)orangefan Wrote:  I've been trying to do the math on a partial membership, and here is what I've come up with.

The nBe is rumored to be looking at $3 million per year for tv rights for the basketball members. For ND or any partial member to make the move, they would need at least $4-5 million for their hoops tv rights. Existing members are going to need at least $0.5 million each per year from the deal. This suggests ND alone would have to add $11-12 million per year just from basketball or ND and a friend would need to add $15-17 million. For one team, the ACC would get 16 +/- basketball games including 10 incremental conference games. For two teams, 32 +/- games, 10 of which would be conference games. That equates to $0.5 million per game. For comparison, FOX is paying the B12 about $2 million per game for tier 2 football rights, a "one and done" annual appearance in the NCAA basketball tournament is worth around $1 million per year, and as noted the entire season's rights for a nBe member's hoops games is worth $3 million+. It seems likely to be somewhere between a close call and a stretch for basketball games to get $0.5 million each in tv value. Really, not worth the bother.

ND bball alone probs isn't worth the bother, but ND bball with a promise for ND football to join at a set date later down the road and heavy penalties for failing to join would be worth the bother.

My point about partial members was that I think Navy+GU>UCONN>RU*, and I think that Navy fball + GU > Navy all sports, and I think that Navy fball + GU > Georgetown all sports. So, rather than arbitrarily declare a "no partial membership rule," in limited circumstances, I would accept partial members, so long as they add more value than the alternative (i.e. UCONN, RU, or Navy as full members)

However, I think that at least 75% of the conference should be full members at all times (so partial members can de-rail any votes), and I think that all conference members should have to include their top revenue-producing team in the conference, unless they are in the process of transitioning into the conference, and a firm date has been set for full membership, and there are heavy penalties (i.e. the "Notre Dame rule"), or they are grandfathered out (i.e. if GU upgrades its football team and it makes more money that GU basketball.... I dont want GU football in the ACC....EVER)

*I don't think UL will ever be in the ACC, because the ACC voted WVU down, so clearly academics carry a lot of weight in the ACC, and UL doesn't have great academics.

Why in the world would ND ever agree to a partial membership with "heavy penalties" for not joining as a future full member?

I just see this idea as a total non-starter. A deal breaker.

(09-04-2012 08:33 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Is ND still viable??

ND currently gets $15 million a year for its home games from NBC and has since 2010. (it used to be $9 million a year before this last renewal).

That contract (up on 2015) is currently being negotiated for a renewal.

My prediction is $20-25 million.

The ACC currently gets $17 million per team, the last I saw.

ND also has an NBC national contract for its home hockey games and a national radio contract for football and basketball.

It sells out its 80,795 seat stadium for every home game.

The money is very good for ND.

Publicity? Are you kidding?

Fans of other schools ***** all the time about the publicity ND gets.

I disagree with you. People said the same thing 40 years ago and were wrong.

Only time (lots of time, I think) will tell.


P.S. If ND is this inconsistent, fading TV draw and "non-viable" (as you describe) school, why in the world do you want them to join the ACC so badly???

lets say that ND makes an average of $22.5 mil a year (that's the middle of your high and low) for their new contract starting in 2015. That would put them behind every "Power 5" conference. I don't see ND being satisfied with being the 63rd highest paid school. Do you?

And they would be #63, because 1. TV contracts are back-loaded, so there is a HUGE advantage of starting a contract first, and 2. the ACC has a 17.1 million dollar contract, plus extra rights worth between 6-8 million/school.

Radio was really important at one point in time, but it is a LOT less important now.

80,000 is huge, adn it is very impressive, but Penn State is 107,000, Tennessee is something like 103,000, Bama is over 100,000k, I think, I want to say Michigan is nomething like 105,000.

Unless I am mistaken, ND was winning national championships 40 years ago. Now ND hasn't won a national championship in 25 years. In fact, none of the students at ND have ever seen ND win a national championship in football. Times are changing, and ND needs to change with the times, otherwise they will turn into just another program.

ND is still a good add because ND is still a very big deal. It is just nolonger the big deal. I'm sure that you will agree that for most of the last 90 years, ND was the biggest name in CFB by a long shot. For the vast majority of that time, it wasn't even close. However, I am not sure they are even in the top 5 right now. I would say Texas, Alabama, OSU, Michigan, and USC all have ND beat, and, up until the scandal, I would put PSU on that list as well.

Like I said, ND will NOT jump in the immediate future. At best, they MIGHT begin transitioning in the next couple of years, but if ND remains ind, then they will get left behind.

P.S. For clarification's sake, I meant viable as in viable super power (i.e. consistently top 10), not viable, as in what Toledo is in a good year.

I think that ND will remain a football independent for many, many years to come.

ND will do just fine as a football independent.

ND increased its seating capacity from 59,075 to 80,075 in 1997.

If it wanted to increase capacity to 125,000, it would still sell out. They have a high ticket demand and a long waiting list.

The configuration and location of the stadium make that type of expansion difficult.

It was a series of poor coaching hires (Davie, Willingham, Weis) that led to mediocre results the last 18 years, not lack of money or publicity.

Yes, I do think that ND will be ok with their TV money as long as it is able to keep its core identity as an independent, the national Catholic university.

This issue involves more than just football.

ND uses the football program as a marketing and recruiting arm of the entire university.

Independence is central to that role. It is a huge part of ND's identity.

It has played football for 125 years and has never been in a conference.

I wish the ACC well. I like its mixture of public and private schools and it's emphasis on academics.

If the new playoff setup had required conference championship for inclusion, I would have been happy for ND to join the ACC as a full member.

Since that is not the case, I fervently hope ND keeps the status quo.