Helmets aren't the problem. It's how they're being used by the wearers.

If professional football players are going to ignore the dangers of hitting others with their head and continue to do so, I guess they'll have to be responsible for living with the consequences.

Can't save some people from themselves no matter how hard you try.

(06-08-2012 01:42 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Helmets aren't the problem. It's how they're being used by the wearers.

If professional football players are going to ignore the dangers of hitting others with their head and continue to do so, I guess they'll have to be responsible for living with the consequences.

Can't save some people from themselves no matter how hard you try.

We can't control all the players that wear them.

But you can control a piece of equipment.


"Can't save some people from themselves no matter how hard you try."

-QB's, WR's and RB's need to be saved too

(06-08-2012 01:58 PM)EA3 Wrote:  QB's, WR's and RB's need to be saved too

Thus the penalties, fines, suspensions from Goodell.

the NFLPA needs to be proactive too and demand that its members stop hitting each other in the head as well as with their heads.

(06-08-2012 01:58 PM)EA3 Wrote:  But you can control a piece of equipment.

Sure can. And football helmets today are light years ahead of the ones I wore.

There is no science, no data that says either helmet caps or outer-padded helmets would ameliorate the problem.

So hold off on "The Sky is falling!" proclamations at least until we know more for certain, and don't ignore the obvious solution.

(06-08-2012 02:05 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  

(06-08-2012 01:58 PM)EA3 Wrote:  QB's, WR's and RB's need to be saved too

Thus the penalties, fines, suspensions from Goodell.

the NFLPA needs to be proactive too and demand that its members stop hitting each other in the head as well as with their heads.

I get all that.

My point is, those penalties, fines and suspensions aren't doing much good.

The problem continues to be a problem.

Players are willing to take the risks that are associated with being a "big hitter" because they want the contract.

It's a "show me the money" mentality.

Keep penalizing, fining and suspending them...AND make them wear padded helmets.

(06-08-2012 02:14 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  

(06-08-2012 01:58 PM)EA3 Wrote:  But you can control a piece of equipment.

Sure can. And football helmets today are light years ahead of the ones I wore.
There is no science, no data that says either helmet caps or outer-padded helmets would ameliorate the problem.

So hold off on "The Sky is falling!" proclamations at least until we know more for certain, and don't ignore the obvious solution.

And yet the problem has gotten worse and worse in the last 30+ years.

There is no science or data? I concede that the development of these products are still in the infant stages due to funding and demand.

However, it's pure physics in regards to a violent collision.

Would you rather go helmet to helmet under the current conditions? Or would you rather go helmet to helmet with both players wearing a outside padded helmet?

If I'm going to have a head to head collision, I want to be wearing the most padding possible, and ditto for the other guy.

I dispute that the problem has gotten worse, at least at the HS level. We are more aware of concussion symptoms, we have rules that prohibit making contact with the head, equipment is vastly improved, treatment is better.

I would not go helmet-to-helmet with another player because I don't want to hurt myself or the other player, OR my team with a 15-yard penalty for illegal contact.

And if there is no science, no conclusive date that says a padded helmet is superior, I'll stck with a hard-shell one.

Watch an entire nine-game season of your favorite HS team. See how many "helmet-to-helmet" hits you see. Report back iin October.

The high school ranks really isn't the problem. It's more of a problem in college, and it's really a problem in the NFL.

Would it help limit a few injuries here and there? No doubt in my mind. They would need to start wearing it at all levels though.


Of course nobody "wants" to go helmet to helmet in a football game...but it still happens. Kids get lazy, kids get tired, kids get angry and lower their head, kids are taught the wrong way, etc... It can't be controlled 100%.

Think about all the lineman that block while leading with their head! It happens every play.

Even if it helps just a little bit...why wouldn't someone support outside padded helmets? They certainly wouldn't make the sport more dangerous.

(06-08-2012 02:49 PM)EA3 Wrote:  The high school ranks really isn't the problem. It's more of a problem in college, and it's really a problem in the NFL.

Would it help limit a few injuries here and there? No doubt in my mind. They would need to start wearing it at all levels though.


Of course nobody "wants" to go helmet to helmet in a football game...but it still happens. Kids get lazy, kids get tired, kids get angry and lower their head, kids are taught the wrong way, etc... It can't be controlled 100%.

Think about all the lineman that block while leading with their head! It happens every play.

Even if it helps just a little bit...why wouldn't someone support outside padded helmets? They certainly wouldn't make the sport more dangerous.

No it doesn't happen every play. That's a myth, a fallacy. I'll be glad to show you our game films.

Obviously there is some incidental-unintentional (low impact, non-concussive) contact made with the helmet or they would be unnecessary. But to say the helmet is used as point of contact regularly and on purpose is outrageous.

"Anything is better" or change for change's sake is not progress.

How do you know it wouldn't make sport more dangerous? One of the arguments in earlier link is NFL players have been emboldened to use helmet to hit with is because of improvements in technology. By that logic, ouldn't a supposed advance like outer padding have similar effect? Ever hear of "Law of Unintended Consequences"?

As I posted earlier, it was tried in '60s and found to be ineffective, just like ProCaps in the '90s.

And again - as you admit, it's not as much of a problem at HS level because we coach against it and it's strictly enforced so kids don't do it!

It's not a problem on your team because you are a good coach and teach proper technique. That isn't the case at all high schools (mine included).

The problem gets worse and worse as you get to college and then the pros. If they wanted to implement an equipment change, it would be beneficial to do it at all levels...for obvious reasons.

Head and neck injuries are very serious. How does it make sense to protect a player's head, and everyone else's body, with a hard plastic helmet that only has padding on the inside?

We both know that a helmet should not be used as a weapon on the football field. Yet intended, or unintended, helmets contribute to injuries. Why would we continue to have players where helmets that can be dangerous.

I'm saying there has to be alternatives that are more safe.

The "Law of Unintended Consequences" could potentially be a problem. I can't prove it wouldn't be a problem anymore than you can prove it would. In fact, that is exactly what has happened with plastic helmets. They were made to protect a player from violent blows to the head...and they've morphed into a weapon on the field. It hurts like heck when you take one to the knee or elbow and it's dangerous when head to head collisions occur.


Fun debate, I'm out for the evening. I do agree with all of your points in regards to better teaching/coaching and penalizing or dishing out fines for inappropriate helmet usage. I just think those are really hard to control at the college and pro levels and we could be doing more to help the situation.

Shades of Dip and DB but sane.

They should start with making leading or launching with the helmet an automatic ejection at all levels of football. Skip the penalties and fines. At the professional level, you forfeit that game check subject to appeal (guy slid into where your helmet was or something, I'd suppose. Seem something like that happen once or twice, but the defender still had his helmet down ready to spear,so...)

You miss half your sophomore season because you can't wrap up, you'll either learn or bunker down on your studies after your coach boots you.

Maybe it explains why I was a mediocre football player. I like my neck. I didn't want to compress it by hurling my helmeted head at a ball carrier.

The Guardian caps are for practice use only according to their web site.

The company does not have a patent for them yet. They have not been approved by NFHS for use in games, and there is some concern they would void the helmet warranty if used.

Saying the product is safer doesn't make it safer. It could cure cancer for all their claims but that doesn't make it so.

(06-08-2012 06:35 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  The Guardian caps are for practice use only according to their web site.

The company does not have a patent for them yet. They have not been approved by NFHS for use in games, and there is some concern they would void the helmet warranty if used.

Saying the product is safer doesn't make it safer. It could cure cancer for all their claims but that doesn't make it so.

I refuse to believe that we can't engineer a safe version. Whether it's in a different form or tweaked. If we can put a man on the moon, we can figure out how to make outside padded helmets.

Joe Pa's idea was to take the face masks off, spear a guy in the gut and risk a knee to the face.

(06-08-2012 08:25 PM)EA3 Wrote:  I refuse to believe that we can't engineer a safe version. Whether it's in a different form or tweaked. If we can put a man on the moon, we can figure out how to make outside padded helmets.

That's like saying we put a rover on Mars, we should be able to make an automobile that is accident-free.

Outside padded helmets can be made. They have been made. They just don't show what you want them to.

Football is a contact sport. It is impossible to make it 100% injury free. There is an inherent risk.

In the past 6-7 years helmet technology has improved (Riddell Revolution-Speed, Xenith, Schutt DNA) so that risk of head and neck injuries APPARENTLY has been reduced. I say "apparently" because there has not been enough time or data to state conclusively.

No doubt manufacturers will continue to try to make all equipment safer as time goes on. But right now the research and science do not support exterior helmet padding making a difference.

So long as equipment is fitted and worn properly, correct techniques are taught, rules are enforced, and injuries are treated properly, the game will be as safe as can be.

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/80462...t-practice

Interesting article. Not exactly the same thing we were debating, but still interesting.