(06-01-2012 10:27 AM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 10:15 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 09:40 AM)Max Power Wrote:  I don't think Romney is an idiot at all. But to argue that his private equity experience lends itself uniquely to governing and creating jobs is ludicrous. If that's true why didn't he break out the magic potion in MA?

I don't think he is claiming it is unique. I think he is claiming that the ability to cut red tape and eliminate wasteful overhead right now is important, and his experience in that regard, as compared to ANY politician is superior.

But Max's question is still reasonable. Is there a record of MBA (or other business-type) governors being more successful at managing the finance of government, creating jobs, growing economies?

It's not reasonable in that the idolization of businessmen is in response to the overwhelming numbers of lawyers who have assumed roles in government. They have been the bigger problem, and virtually any other vocation is a step up in talent, quality and integrity.

(06-01-2012 10:03 AM)Max Power Wrote:  Oh yeah, I forgot. He lied under oath, that's fair.

But your argument was lawyers know the laws. Clinton proves they don't follow them.

(06-01-2012 10:29 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 10:27 AM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 10:15 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 09:40 AM)Max Power Wrote:  I don't think Romney is an idiot at all. But to argue that his private equity experience lends itself uniquely to governing and creating jobs is ludicrous. If that's true why didn't he break out the magic potion in MA?

I don't think he is claiming it is unique. I think he is claiming that the ability to cut red tape and eliminate wasteful overhead right now is important, and his experience in that regard, as compared to ANY politician is superior.

But Max's question is still reasonable. Is there a record of MBA (or other business-type) governors being more successful at managing the finance of government, creating jobs, growing economies?

It's not reasonable in that the idolization of businessmen is in response to the overwhelming numbers of lawyers who have assumed roles in government. They have been the bigger problem, and virtually any other vocation is a step up in talent, quality and integrity.

I'm certainly not going to disagree that more diversity in education/skill sets/experience would be a benefit to our government(s). The problem, of course, is that it's self-selecting. People whose career goal is politics have determined that the best way to get there is with a law degree. Of course, I've just identified another problem: People whose career goal is politics.

(06-01-2012 10:15 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 09:40 AM)Max Power Wrote:  I don't think Romney is an idiot at all. But to argue that his private equity experience lends itself uniquely to governing and creating jobs is ludicrous. If that's true why didn't he break out the magic potion in MA?

I don't think he is claiming it is unique. I think he is claiming that the ability to cut red tape and eliminate wasteful overhead right now is important, and his experience in that regard, as compared to ANY politician is superior.

More later, but how does Obama compare to previous presidents in terms of job creation by percentages?

No I think he is. He often claims Obama "doesn't understand how the economy works" and that he, as a businessman, knows what is going on and how to fix it. I don't think I've ever heard him talking about eliminating red tape and wasteful overhead (though maybe he has).

A better comparison would be how our economy under Obama is doing compared to other countries dealing with this crisis. And the answer is favorably. All of Obama's job losses were in the first year, during the Bush hangover (unemployment is a lagging indicator), and since then he has created over 4 million jobs, so you have to take into account the hand a president was dealt.

Quote:What exactly were Jefferson's credentials?

I don't think it was his business experience. What corporation did he run again? "Poor John Adams doesn't understand how the economy works. If you elect me I'll apply my business experience enslaving you all and putting you to work in my plantation fields picking cotton!"

Quote:But your argument was lawyers know the laws. Clinton proves they don't follow them.

Oh Clinton knew the law. I didn't say all lawyers are honest, not by a long shot.

(06-01-2012 10:50 AM)Max Power Wrote:  

Quote:What exactly were Jefferson's credentials?

I don't think it was his business experience. What corporation did he run again?

Answer the question if you can. I'm guessing the business majors laughed at you, and that's why you're bitter.

Well, I think Jefferson owned a slave plantation, authored the Declaration of Independence and was a philosopher. Does that answer your question?

(06-01-2012 09:11 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  While we're at it. Let's make it so that you actually have to start the business yourself with your own money and not have daddy hand it down to you!

But then Donald Trump wouldn't qualify!

Okay I'm on board.

(06-01-2012 09:51 AM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 09:45 AM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 09:43 AM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

Max Power Wrote:It's amazing the extent this country fetishizes lawyers.

FIFY. The most common occupation/educational background for Congresspeople is lawyer. Of course, that doesn't stop a lawyer from blaming the one MBA President in a sea of lawyers for causing all the nation's problems.

I expect politicians to be lawyers. If you're going to make/execute laws, I expect you to have studied them.

Well, you've mostly gotten your wish. How's that working out for you?

Should they also be economists, since they enact policies affecting economics? And doctors, since they enact laws affecting healthcare?

This isn't a fair criticism, they have experts they consult on outside issues like the ones above, but they're the ones (supposedly) crafting the legislation itself so you'd expect them to be experts in that area specifically.

First of all, this is a really stupid statement by Romney. As for MBA's, I have one and I teach MBA students, and I don't see where a country run by MBA's any would be vastly superior to a country run by lawyers. And I have a JD too, for the record. I don't see any magic that either brings to the position.

But then again, Romney doesn't have to be better than anyone else, he just has to be better than Obama. And given a choice between MBA/business person and JD/community organizer, I'll take the business person any day.

(06-01-2012 11:23 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 09:51 AM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 09:45 AM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 09:43 AM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

Max Power Wrote:It's amazing the extent this country fetishizes lawyers.

FIFY. The most common occupation/educational background for Congresspeople is lawyer. Of course, that doesn't stop a lawyer from blaming the one MBA President in a sea of lawyers for causing all the nation's problems.

I expect politicians to be lawyers. If you're going to make/execute laws, I expect you to have studied them.

Well, you've mostly gotten your wish. How's that working out for you?

Should they also be economists, since they enact policies affecting economics? And doctors, since they enact laws affecting healthcare?

This isn't a fair criticism, they have experts they consult on outside issues like the ones above, but they're the ones (supposedly) crafting the legislation itself so you'd expect them to be experts in that area specifically.

So they can consult experts in other areas, but it's inconceivable that legislators without a legal background could consult legal experts to help craft a bill?

(06-01-2012 01:05 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 11:23 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 09:51 AM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 09:45 AM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 09:43 AM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  FIFY. The most common occupation/educational background for Congresspeople is lawyer. Of course, that doesn't stop a lawyer from blaming the one MBA President in a sea of lawyers for causing all the nation's problems.

I expect politicians to be lawyers. If you're going to make/execute laws, I expect you to have studied them.

Well, you've mostly gotten your wish. How's that working out for you?

Should they also be economists, since they enact policies affecting economics? And doctors, since they enact laws affecting healthcare?

This isn't a fair criticism, they have experts they consult on outside issues like the ones above, but they're the ones (supposedly) crafting the legislation itself so you'd expect them to be experts in that area specifically.

So they can consult experts in other areas, but it's inconceivable that legislators without a legal background could consult legal experts to help craft a bill?

Of course they could, but ideally you'd want the person whose job it is to draft the bill to be the expert in drafting the bill itself. It's like having an engineer defend you in court; you could of course have experts consult to give him advice on how to do it, but ideally you'd want the engineer to consult on engineering issues and have the expert defending you.

Though this is all reliant on the assumption that legislators write/review their bills and they aren't just forwarded legislation from their special interests lawyers to propose.

(06-01-2012 01:28 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  Of course they could, but ideally you'd want the person whose job it is to draft the bill to be the expert in drafting the bill itself.

That's your ideal, not mine.

Quote:It's like having an engineer defend you in court;

No, because complicated and complex are two different things.

(06-01-2012 03:18 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 01:28 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  Of course they could, but ideally you'd want the person whose job it is to draft the bill to be the expert in drafting the bill itself.

That's your ideal, not mine.

Quote:It's like having an engineer defend you in court;

No, because complicated and complex are two different things.

So you'd rather the person drafting the bill not know what he's doing when drafting it, and you're going to start a semantic argument over the difference between complicated and complex (hint; they're synonyms so it's not a very large difference)

Well I certainly see this ending well for rational and legitimate debate.

(06-01-2012 03:43 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 03:18 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(06-01-2012 01:28 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  Of course they could, but ideally you'd want the person whose job it is to draft the bill to be the expert in drafting the bill itself.

That's your ideal, not mine.

Quote:It's like having an engineer defend you in court;

No, because complicated and complex are two different things.

So you'd rather the person drafting the bill not know what he's doing when drafting it,

False dilemma

Quote:and you're going to start a semantic argument over the difference between complicated and complex (hint; they're synonyms so it's not a very large difference)

Hint, no they're not, and the difference is profound.

Quote:Well I certainly see this ending well for rational and legitimate debate.

Well, you've made two logical errors so far...

We'll have to agree to disagree about the first issue, I think we just see it differently (though I don't see any reason why more representative/congressmen can't come from different backgrounds, I just think that one based in law is a logical and useful choice).

As for the second, explain to me the difference in this context.

To avoid long quotes and a too simple +1 to owlnumbers....

Being president and presiding over an economy isn't a single job, and what skills are necessary in 1776 or 1929 isn't necessarily what skills are necessary in 2012. Judging someone by common characteristics rather than individual achievement is one of those "isms" we usually seek to avoid

The comments about comparing our recovery to Europe is equally silly. Our strengths are not theirs and neither are our problems. We can certainly learn from them and some things translate well, but our economy is much much larger than theirs, and while Greece and spain are holding us back, they aren't exactly a huge trade partner as thy are for the EU.

Having an MBA doesnt mean you can run, much less restructure a company. Running and or restructuring companies with success means you can. Having a law degree didn't mean you can win cases.

The people who draft bills are rarely the representatives themselves

And yes... From experience... Many great lawyers are terrible business people