(05-24-2012 04:28 PM)Max Power Wrote:  You libertarians are good with private contractors? So then you approve of most of the stimulus right?

Rebel sure was. He got paid nicely.

(05-24-2012 06:48 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(05-24-2012 04:28 PM)Max Power Wrote:  You libertarians are good with private contractors? So then you approve of most of the stimulus right?

Private contractors do the same work a government employee can do at a third of the price. If it absolutely needs to be done, damn right I'd rather give it to private contractors.

Surprise, surprise. Who would have thought Rebel would be in favor?

(05-25-2012 09:33 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  No, it's not. Your logic would mean that Bill Gates isn't doing anything either with the Gates Foundation, he's just giving money to people who do good. That distinction is utterly meaningless because without the money from Bill Gates, the good that has been done never would have. It's you contorting your argument to try and lesson the role the single most important factor both of those examples had in their creation. The decisions made to move forward with both of these, to fund them the way that they did, and a fair amount of the actual work itself was done by direct government employees (especially in the space program). Just admit it. Even a blind pig gets lucky sometimes.

You're distorting what I'm saying.

I agree that government led and funded those efforts. I would personally like to see many more such public-private partnerships to accomplish a number of things. There is immense potential in the environmental area, for one example.

But leading and funding isn't doing. That's why you need the partnership, government does the funding part and private enterprise does the doing part. And you need both.

To continue your Bill and Melinda Gates example, Bill and Melinda give to charities because those charities can DO things that Bill and Melinda by themselves cannot. The charities need Bill and Melinda's money and Bill and Melinda need the charities' arms and legs and brains and other things. Without both, it doesn't happen.

Private enterprise probably would not have put a man on the moon without government leading the way, but government could not have put a man on the moon without the private sector. And the part of the Internet that was built with government leadership and funding is only a shell of what we have today; it became today's Internet when private enterprise realized the commercial potential and began to utilize and grow it.

I think what we we have here is more semantic than substantive disagreement. I just dislike the verbal sloppiness, intended or not, which says government did things that government cannot and did not do. If you want to say government led and funded the space program, or led and funded the initial development of what has become the Internet, then I'm okay with that.

(05-24-2012 04:28 PM)Max Power Wrote:  You libertarians are good with private contractors? So then you approve of most of the stimulus right?

No.

(05-24-2012 04:28 PM)Max Power Wrote:  You libertarians are good with private contractors? So then you approve of most of the stimulus right?

I lol'd

(05-25-2012 09:47 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-25-2012 09:33 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  No, it's not. Your logic would mean that Bill Gates isn't doing anything either with the Gates Foundation, he's just giving money to people who do good. That distinction is utterly meaningless because without the money from Bill Gates, the good that has been done never would have. It's you contorting your argument to try and lesson the role the single most important factor both of those examples had in their creation. The decisions made to move forward with both of these, to fund them the way that they did, and a fair amount of the actual work itself was done by direct government employees (especially in the space program). Just admit it. Even a blind pig gets lucky sometimes.

You're distorting what I'm saying.

I agree that government led and funded those efforts. I would personally like to see many more such public-private partnerships to accomplish a number of things. There is immense potential in the environmental area, for one example.

But leading and funding isn't doing. That's why you need the partnership, government does the funding part and private enterprise does the doing part. And you need both.

To continue your Bill and Melinda Gates example, Bill and Melinda give to charities because those charities can DO things that Bill and Melinda by themselves cannot. The charities need Bill and Melinda's money and Bill and Melinda need the charities' arms and legs and brains and other things. Without both, it doesn't happen.

Private enterprise probably would not have put a man on the moon without government leading the way, but government could not have put a man on the moon without the private sector. And the part of the Internet that was built with government leadership and funding is only a shell of what we have today; it became today's Internet when private enterprise realized the commercial potential and began to utilize and grow it.

I think what we we have here is more semantic than substantive disagreement. I just dislike the verbal sloppiness, intended or not, which says government did things that government cannot and did not do. If you want to say government led and funded the space program, or led and funded the initial development of what has become the Internet, then I'm okay with that.

I can agree with this, it's just that for many, that distinction you are making is used to try and lesson or undervalue the role government played in these two advances. And I think that's a shame, because IMO especially in regards to the Internet and increasingly NASA with breakthroughs like the one mentioned in the OP, they can be used as examples of what was right about the governments approach and what was wrong, using their respective failings.

The government is useful for doing things that the private industry isn't motivated to do, and that includes (funding) long term research into baby-technologies which show promise.

Oh, and just for posterity, SpaceX got to where they are due to over $1 Billion of NASA funding into researching carrying cargo and such into space. This isn't the free market, and if it truly was, we'd still be decades away from this occurring.

(05-24-2012 04:51 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  

(05-24-2012 04:10 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Regardless, the government is people anyway

So is soylent green.

LOL