(04-06-2012 07:01 PM)JustAnotherName Wrote:  Everything's nice and shiny at Clemson accept its records. It's a bit puzzling why Clemson hasn't done better, especially when South Carolina has usually been mediocre.

Honestly, there are several reasons.

Bobby Robinson was a long-term Clemson employee when he was named AD and being a long-term employee he got complacent. Being a product of the 1980's when we not only had the best football facilities (both stadium and support facilities) in the ACC and some of the best in the country he had the mentality that they were so far ahead of the rest of the conference that it would take decades for them to catch up. It didn't, and because he wouldn't change his mind we fell from way ahead to the point where Wake had better football facilities than we had. When Tommy Bowden was hired he quickly started harping on getting needed upgrades and Robinson refused to listen, other than a few cosmetic things with Death Valley itself.

During spring practice in 2001 another message board I was part of decided one Saturday if the players are training in the spring we needed to do the same so we went and tailgated at the practice field. One of the posters had contacts in the athletic department, made a few calls and we got to go in and watch the "closed" practices, and after practice Bowden and a couple players (their parents were message board folks who were tailgating with us) came over. He was very candid with us, saying we would not be able to compete until we did a compete upgrade of all facilities, including an indoor practice facility. Robinson "retired" in 2002, and we hired Terry Don Phillips away from Oklahoma State, who came in and immediately made facility improvements a priority, starting with the West Zone in 2004. The first and second phases were completed in 2009, and the results recruiting and on the field show it. The indoor practice facility, when completed, is the final piece of the puzzle.

The other problem is we hung on to Tommy Bowden about 3 years too long. Bowden accomplished what he was brought in to do.....turn the program around from the devastation that was Ken Hatfield and Tommy West, rebuilding recruiting ties, relationships with the boosters, etc. However it became clear that we would never win an ACC championship with him as coach. For whatever reason he only seemed to be able to get the most out of his players when his seat was at it's hottest. One additional problem he had was he was way too loyal to his assistant coaches, even the ones who simply did not perform. Jon Lovett, Jack Hines, and Rob Spence were all prime examples of that.

(04-07-2012 10:44 AM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(04-06-2012 07:01 PM)JustAnotherName Wrote:  Everything's nice and shiny at Clemson accept its records. It's a bit puzzling why Clemson hasn't done better, especially when South Carolina has usually been mediocre.

Honestly, there are several reasons.

Bobby Robinson was a long-term Clemson employee when he was named AD and being a long-term employee he got complacent. Being a product of the 1980's when we not only had the best football facilities (both stadium and support facilities) in the ACC and some of the best in the country he had the mentality that they were so far ahead of the rest of the conference that it would take decades for them to catch up. It didn't, and because he wouldn't change his mind we fell from way ahead to the point where Wake had better football facilities than we had. When Tommy Bowden was hired he quickly started harping on getting needed upgrades and Robinson refused to listen, other than a few cosmetic things with Death Valley itself.

During spring practice in 2001 another message board I was part of decided one Saturday if the players are training in the spring we needed to do the same so we went and tailgated at the practice field. One of the posters had contacts in the athletic department, made a few calls and we got to go in and watch the "closed" practices, and after practice Bowden and a couple players (their parents were message board folks who were tailgating with us) came over. He was very candid with us, saying we would not be able to compete until we did a compete upgrade of all facilities, including an indoor practice facility. Robinson "retired" in 2002, and we hired Terry Don Phillips away from Oklahoma State, who came in and immediately made facility improvements a priority, starting with the West Zone in 2004. The first and second phases were completed in 2009, and the results recruiting and on the field show it. The indoor practice facility, when completed, is the final piece of the puzzle.

The other problem is we hung on to Tommy Bowden about 3 years too long. Bowden accomplished what he was brought in to do.....turn the program around from the devastation that was Ken Hatfield and Tommy West, rebuilding recruiting ties, relationships with the boosters, etc. However it became clear that we would never win an ACC championship with him as coach. For whatever reason he only seemed to be able to get the most out of his players when his seat was at it's hottest. One additional problem he had was he was way too loyal to his assistant coaches, even the ones who simply did not perform. Jon Lovett, Jack Hines, and Rob Spence were all prime examples of that.

In some ways Clemson is a microcosm of the whole ACC. Once great... grew complacent... failed to react until the competition had already passed by.

(04-07-2012 11:59 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(04-07-2012 10:44 AM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(04-06-2012 07:01 PM)JustAnotherName Wrote:  Everything's nice and shiny at Clemson accept its records. It's a bit puzzling why Clemson hasn't done better, especially when South Carolina has usually been mediocre.

Honestly, there are several reasons.

Bobby Robinson was a long-term Clemson employee when he was named AD and being a long-term employee he got complacent. Being a product of the 1980's when we not only had the best football facilities (both stadium and support facilities) in the ACC and some of the best in the country he had the mentality that they were so far ahead of the rest of the conference that it would take decades for them to catch up. It didn't, and because he wouldn't change his mind we fell from way ahead to the point where Wake had better football facilities than we had. When Tommy Bowden was hired he quickly started harping on getting needed upgrades and Robinson refused to listen, other than a few cosmetic things with Death Valley itself.

During spring practice in 2001 another message board I was part of decided one Saturday if the players are training in the spring we needed to do the same so we went and tailgated at the practice field. One of the posters had contacts in the athletic department, made a few calls and we got to go in and watch the "closed" practices, and after practice Bowden and a couple players (their parents were message board folks who were tailgating with us) came over. He was very candid with us, saying we would not be able to compete until we did a compete upgrade of all facilities, including an indoor practice facility. Robinson "retired" in 2002, and we hired Terry Don Phillips away from Oklahoma State, who came in and immediately made facility improvements a priority, starting with the West Zone in 2004. The first and second phases were completed in 2009, and the results recruiting and on the field show it. The indoor practice facility, when completed, is the final piece of the puzzle.

The other problem is we hung on to Tommy Bowden about 3 years too long. Bowden accomplished what he was brought in to do.....turn the program around from the devastation that was Ken Hatfield and Tommy West, rebuilding recruiting ties, relationships with the boosters, etc. However it became clear that we would never win an ACC championship with him as coach. For whatever reason he only seemed to be able to get the most out of his players when his seat was at it's hottest. One additional problem he had was he was way too loyal to his assistant coaches, even the ones who simply did not perform. Jon Lovett, Jack Hines, and Rob Spence were all prime examples of that.

In some ways Clemson is a microcosm of the whole ACC. Once great... grew complacent... failed to react until the competition had already passed by.

I believe the other problem with the ACC is that a former strength is now a weakness - it's tight-knit regionality, especially having 4 teams in North Carolina which is probably two too many in today's landscape.

Cheers,
Neil

(04-05-2012 04:11 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(04-05-2012 02:44 PM)wildthing202 Wrote:  Is Clemson broke or something? You keep whining about how Clemson screwed themselves over about $1-2 million for a season just because they have to play one less home game. Maybe they can recoup the money by winning a bowl game or something.

The Clemson athletic department has plenty of money although they did recently drop men's swimming and diving and women's swimming (title IX concerns). They are well managed (woman's diving survived).

We dropped the swimming because our facilities weren't up to snuff and it was going to cost a fortune to bring them in line to remain competitive.

We are adding a Women's Golf program that will begin in 2013. The startup costs are going to be minimal because they can utilize University owned Walker Course and practice facilities already in place for the men's team.

(04-07-2012 05:49 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(04-05-2012 04:11 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(04-05-2012 02:44 PM)wildthing202 Wrote:  Is Clemson broke or something? You keep whining about how Clemson screwed themselves over about $1-2 million for a season just because they have to play one less home game. Maybe they can recoup the money by winning a bowl game or something.

The Clemson athletic department has plenty of money although they did recently drop men's swimming and diving and women's swimming (title IX concerns). They are well managed (woman's diving survived).

We dropped the swimming because our facilities weren't up to snuff and it was going to cost a fortune to bring them in line to remain competitive.

We are adding a Women's Golf program that will begin in 2013. The startup costs are going to be minimal because they can utilize University owned Walker Course and practice facilities already in place for the men's team.

Thanks for the history...Cuse dropped swimming + diving for the same reason. The new facility was rumored around $50M which was way too much for a nonrevenue sport. Also, agree on Coach Spence....he fell in love with the bubble screen. He lasted at Syracuse one season after you guys fired him.

(04-07-2012 12:35 PM)omniorange Wrote:  

(04-07-2012 11:59 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(04-07-2012 10:44 AM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(04-06-2012 07:01 PM)JustAnotherName Wrote:  Everything's nice and shiny at Clemson accept its records. It's a bit puzzling why Clemson hasn't done better, especially when South Carolina has usually been mediocre.

Honestly, there are several reasons.

Bobby Robinson was a long-term Clemson employee when he was named AD and being a long-term employee he got complacent. Being a product of the 1980's when we not only had the best football facilities (both stadium and support facilities) in the ACC and some of the best in the country he had the mentality that they were so far ahead of the rest of the conference that it would take decades for them to catch up. It didn't, and because he wouldn't change his mind we fell from way ahead to the point where Wake had better football facilities than we had. When Tommy Bowden was hired he quickly started harping on getting needed upgrades and Robinson refused to listen, other than a few cosmetic things with Death Valley itself.

During spring practice in 2001 another message board I was part of decided one Saturday if the players are training in the spring we needed to do the same so we went and tailgated at the practice field. One of the posters had contacts in the athletic department, made a few calls and we got to go in and watch the "closed" practices, and after practice Bowden and a couple players (their parents were message board folks who were tailgating with us) came over. He was very candid with us, saying we would not be able to compete until we did a compete upgrade of all facilities, including an indoor practice facility. Robinson "retired" in 2002, and we hired Terry Don Phillips away from Oklahoma State, who came in and immediately made facility improvements a priority, starting with the West Zone in 2004. The first and second phases were completed in 2009, and the results recruiting and on the field show it. The indoor practice facility, when completed, is the final piece of the puzzle.

The other problem is we hung on to Tommy Bowden about 3 years too long. Bowden accomplished what he was brought in to do.....turn the program around from the devastation that was Ken Hatfield and Tommy West, rebuilding recruiting ties, relationships with the boosters, etc. However it became clear that we would never win an ACC championship with him as coach. For whatever reason he only seemed to be able to get the most out of his players when his seat was at it's hottest. One additional problem he had was he was way too loyal to his assistant coaches, even the ones who simply did not perform. Jon Lovett, Jack Hines, and Rob Spence were all prime examples of that.

In some ways Clemson is a microcosm of the whole ACC. Once great... grew complacent... failed to react until the competition had already passed by.

I believe the other problem with the ACC is that a former strength is now a weakness - it's tight-knit regionality, especially having 4 teams in North Carolina which is probably two too many in today's landscape.

Cheers,
Neil

IMO not really. It's not like that tight-knit regionality meant extra butts in the seats for anybody but Clemson opponents.

(04-08-2012 11:05 AM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(04-07-2012 12:35 PM)omniorange Wrote:  

(04-07-2012 11:59 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(04-07-2012 10:44 AM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(04-06-2012 07:01 PM)JustAnotherName Wrote:  Everything's nice and shiny at Clemson accept its records. It's a bit puzzling why Clemson hasn't done better, especially when South Carolina has usually been mediocre.

Honestly, there are several reasons.

Bobby Robinson was a long-term Clemson employee when he was named AD and being a long-term employee he got complacent. Being a product of the 1980's when we not only had the best football facilities (both stadium and support facilities) in the ACC and some of the best in the country he had the mentality that they were so far ahead of the rest of the conference that it would take decades for them to catch up. It didn't, and because he wouldn't change his mind we fell from way ahead to the point where Wake had better football facilities than we had. When Tommy Bowden was hired he quickly started harping on getting needed upgrades and Robinson refused to listen, other than a few cosmetic things with Death Valley itself.

During spring practice in 2001 another message board I was part of decided one Saturday if the players are training in the spring we needed to do the same so we went and tailgated at the practice field. One of the posters had contacts in the athletic department, made a few calls and we got to go in and watch the "closed" practices, and after practice Bowden and a couple players (their parents were message board folks who were tailgating with us) came over. He was very candid with us, saying we would not be able to compete until we did a compete upgrade of all facilities, including an indoor practice facility. Robinson "retired" in 2002, and we hired Terry Don Phillips away from Oklahoma State, who came in and immediately made facility improvements a priority, starting with the West Zone in 2004. The first and second phases were completed in 2009, and the results recruiting and on the field show it. The indoor practice facility, when completed, is the final piece of the puzzle.

The other problem is we hung on to Tommy Bowden about 3 years too long. Bowden accomplished what he was brought in to do.....turn the program around from the devastation that was Ken Hatfield and Tommy West, rebuilding recruiting ties, relationships with the boosters, etc. However it became clear that we would never win an ACC championship with him as coach. For whatever reason he only seemed to be able to get the most out of his players when his seat was at it's hottest. One additional problem he had was he was way too loyal to his assistant coaches, even the ones who simply did not perform. Jon Lovett, Jack Hines, and Rob Spence were all prime examples of that.

In some ways Clemson is a microcosm of the whole ACC. Once great... grew complacent... failed to react until the competition had already passed by.

I believe the other problem with the ACC is that a former strength is now a weakness - it's tight-knit regionality, especially having 4 teams in North Carolina which is probably two too many in today's landscape.

Cheers,
Neil

IMO not really. It's not like that tight-knit regionality meant extra butts in the seats for anybody but Clemson opponents.

When the ACC was at its apex, butts in the seats was not the factor it is today. Otherwise they wouldn't have gotten TV contracts that were on a par or better than the SEC and the BiG.

Cheers,
Neil

(04-07-2012 10:44 AM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(04-06-2012 07:01 PM)JustAnotherName Wrote:  Everything's nice and shiny at Clemson accept its records. It's a bit puzzling why Clemson hasn't done better, especially when South Carolina has usually been mediocre.

Honestly, there are several reasons.

Bobby Robinson was a long-term Clemson employee when he was named AD and being a long-term employee he got complacent. Being a product of the 1980's when we not only had the best football facilities (both stadium and support facilities) in the ACC and some of the best in the country he had the mentality that they were so far ahead of the rest of the conference that it would take decades for them to catch up. It didn't, and because he wouldn't change his mind we fell from way ahead to the point where Wake had better football facilities than we had. When Tommy Bowden was hired he quickly started harping on getting needed upgrades and Robinson refused to listen, other than a few cosmetic things with Death Valley itself.

During spring practice in 2001 another message board I was part of decided one Saturday if the players are training in the spring we needed to do the same so we went and tailgated at the practice field. One of the posters had contacts in the athletic department, made a few calls and we got to go in and watch the "closed" practices, and after practice Bowden and a couple players (their parents were message board folks who were tailgating with us) came over. He was very candid with us, saying we would not be able to compete until we did a compete upgrade of all facilities, including an indoor practice facility. Robinson "retired" in 2002, and we hired Terry Don Phillips away from Oklahoma State, who came in and immediately made facility improvements a priority, starting with the West Zone in 2004. The first and second phases were completed in 2009, and the results recruiting and on the field show it. The indoor practice facility, when completed, is the final piece of the puzzle.

The other problem is we hung on to Tommy Bowden about 3 years too long. Bowden accomplished what he was brought in to do.....turn the program around from the devastation that was Ken Hatfield and Tommy West, rebuilding recruiting ties, relationships with the boosters, etc. However it became clear that we would never win an ACC championship with him as coach. For whatever reason he only seemed to be able to get the most out of his players when his seat was at it's hottest. One additional problem he had was he was way too loyal to his assistant coaches, even the ones who simply did not perform. Jon Lovett, Jack Hines, and Rob Spence were all prime examples of that.

Good stuff here, and pretty much ditto for FSU. Bobby 2001-09 just murdered the program.

(04-05-2012 01:12 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  ......how is the ACC going address the following problem?


Three ACC teams (FSU, GT, Clemson) play in-state SEC rivals, and Wake Forest is in a long term series with Vandy. They are set up as follows:

Clemson, FSU, and GT all play the following sequence: home in even years, away in odd years.

Wake plays the opposite sequence: home in off years and away in even years.

When the 9 game conference schedule is adopted this will mean that two out of the four will be stuck with 6 home games every other year. (5 ACC road games + @ SEC rival)

I don't see South Carolina being agreeable to adjusting the schedule to assist Clemson, nor UGA doing it for GT.

It's already cost Clemson $$ to keep the UGA series, it's going to cost us more $$ to have to drop interesting OOC games for uninteresting future ACC games, I highly doubt we are going to be too awful happy if it ends up costing us $$ every other year, unless the ACC is prepared to reimburse us for said $$ above and beyond the regular conference payout.

It is my understanding that the ACC will get an increase in revenue from ESPN to account for the added games added to the conference schedule. This factor alone should more than make up for the dollars missed from having an extra home game. At Syracuse, the rival game was against BC so obviously another team will have to be found for a yearly game. I am hoping it is Penn State but Syracuse does have upcoming series with big time teams (Southern Cal, Penn State, Notre Dame) so perhaps that will suffice for us.
Another possibility is to have multi-tier pricing for games, so games against top teams would cost more.
A neutral site game against a top opponent would also bring in extra money for the athletic department.

(04-09-2012 12:30 AM)tj_2009 Wrote:  It is my understanding that the ACC will get an increase in revenue from ESPN to account for the added games added to the conference schedule. This factor alone should more than make up for the dollars missed from having an extra home game.

Clemson brings in anywhere from $1.5 - $2 million per home game, so the increase better be more than $2 million or it simply isn't worth it for us to lose desirable games against decent competition for games against ACC teams that evidently even aren't entertaining enough for their own fans.

Quote:A neutral site game against a top opponent would also bring in extra money for the athletic department.

Again, for us to make money on a neutral site game we would have to get a payout greater than $2 million.

When we played against Alabama in the Chick-fil-a game in '08 we were prepared to lose money by giving up a home game for the exposure. It ended up working out because La Tech bought out the game we were supposed to play against them in Shreveport at the last minute and we were able to schedule SC State at home to counteract the money we would have lost by only having 6 home games that year.

I'm with catdaddy and a few other ACCfans on this one. I prefer an 8 game conference schedule and a north/south split.