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Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
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Max Power Offline
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Post: #1
Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
The Dems are just going to hammer Romney for his support of the Ryan budget, whether or not Ryan's on the ticket, just like Clinton did to Dole for his association with Gingrich in 1996, so expect this to be over quickly, especially if these job numbers keep looking good. But like this guy says at least give the GOP credit for not hiding the ball, even though it'll be their downfall

The President's Speech and the Ryan Budget: Two Very Alternative Visions
Jared Bernstein Senior Fellow, Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
Posted: 04/ 4/2012 8:53 am

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jared-bern...02399.html

I've written that Rep Paul Ryan did the world a favor by not trying to hide the ball with his budget -- now adopted by House Republicans and endorsed by Gov. Romney. Their vision for America is clear, a vision that we at CBPP have been elaborating through a set of publications in recent days (see here, here, here, and here).

President Obama made a similar point Tuesday in a speech here in DC:


"I can't remember a time when the choice between two competing visions of our future has been so unambiguously clear."

So what's the best way to most succinctly describe these visions? At On The Economy, I've tried to do so by examining the role of government. We should do our best to understand what the private market does best and what it does least well. The latter should be considered as a role for government.

The president made a similar point citing another president, and a Republican at that. Abraham Lincoln believed that "through government, we should do together what we cannot do as well for ourselves."

This is, of course, an ancient argument, dating back to Hamilton and Jefferson, but it is crystallized in the House budget in a way that one might view as the logical realization of the 2010 midterms, where a bunch of members were sent to DC to vastly shrink the role of government.

I'll speak to that role in a minute, but there's another dimension to this -- it's not simply a debate on what "we cannot do as well for ourselves." It's also about further enriching the wealthiest households. The Ryan budget solves the problem that the poor have too much and the rich have too little... that is, if you think that's the problem.

That aside, here's one economist's list of the functions better accomplished at least in part by government than wholly left to markets. I tried to keep this list quite spare, listing only those functions agreed upon by most folks who think about this pragmatically, as opposed to ideologically:

-Social insurance for retirees: Health and income security for those past their working years cannot efficiently and universally be offered at affordable rates and are therefore at least partially provided by governments in every advanced economy.

-Public infrastructure: Private commerce depends on the provision of public goods including roads, bridges, rail to move goods and people. Households and businesses depend on public infrastructure to accommodate the provision of safe water, energy, communications, air travel -- much of which is privately provided but could not exist without public coordination and support.

-Barriers to production, trade, and technology that markets don't solve. No single firm can support early stage research and development into a new technology, like the internet or advanced batteries, because returns are too uncertain and start-up costs too steep. Private firms need help negotiating the rules of trade with other nations or coordinating large infrastructure projects, like a smart grid.

-Public education (including preschool), worker training, and support for those trying to access and complete higher education (e.g., college) but who lack the means. These functions are increasingly important in an economy characterized by increasing inequality and stagnant or diminished mobility, because absent public provision, society risks under-investment in human the capital development of all its citizens.

-A safety net against recession, unemployment, poverty and falling onto hard times.

-Regulation of potentially harmful outcomes and markets, from food and air safety to financial market regulation, consumer protections, and so on. Some economists argue that this function could be accomplished by self-regulation -- if a food company's products killed people, or a bank sold toxic assets, they'd go out of business. But few people have that kind of faith in markets (actually, former Federal Reserve chair Alan Greenspan did so regarding financial regulation... but he was... um... wrong).

-Health care. This one's controversial these days, but it shouldn't be. The fact that it's not a normal market has led every other advanced economy to at least partially take this function out of the market, to avoid the "externalities" that arise when people forego coverage yet need care (which turns out to be a much bigger problem for society then if people forego the broccoli course).

I left out military defense and a judicial system because they're not controversial. No private firm could adequately provide them.

Now, where does Rep Ryan's budget come down on these functions? Other than strengthening the military, from what we can tell as elaborated in the CBPP links above, it severely diminishes each one.

According to the President today, 19 million would be cut from the Medicaid roles, and the program would lose its countercyclical function (the ability to expand in recessions). Medicare would become increasingly expensive as costs are shifted onto beneficiaries and the healthiest seniors are incentivized to leave the program.

The safety net could not be sustained, nor could R&D, infrastructure investment, the FAA, veterans services, Homeland Security, educational support, and pretty much everything else outside of interest on the debt, defense, and the scaled-down entitlements providing health coverage and Social Security.

And remember, all of these spending cuts are accompanied by trillions in new tax cuts -- on top of making the Bush tax cuts permanent -- that disproportionately benefit the wealthy.

That's it. That's what's on offer here. We can and will have good arguments about the facts of the case, but our work at CBPP, along with that of many others, including CBO, find this to be the inexorable logic of the R's platform. And again, to their credit, it's not like they're trying to hide it.

They can, will, and should invoke their explanations as to why such critiques are wrong. They've already been touting supply-side rationales as to how the tax cuts for the wealthy and their deregulatory agenda will unleash growth to offset the costs of the cuts. They claim that they'll close unspecified tax loopholes to prevent the deficit from worsening.

They'll claim that President Obama's vision to address those functions elaborated above is misguided, unaffordable, and impossible to accomplish without ruining the economy, over-regulating industry, and discouraging entrepreneurs from creating jobs.

Those issues will form the arguments we'll be having in coming months. But we mustn't allow that noise to obfuscate the starkly different vision of government on offer. I'm not saying the decision is necessarily a simple one. But I very much am saying that the choices are clear.
(This post was last modified: 04-04-2012 03:38 PM by Max Power.)
04-04-2012 03:29 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
Great speech: full of overt lies. Only a fool would buy this nonsense. More proof that Obama is an undeducated empty suit.
04-04-2012 03:42 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
Wow... Obama sure is good at winning the argument when he gets to frame the question and his competitors response any way he wants

Got news for you mr. Magoo Obama... People have seen the difference between your vision and your reality
04-04-2012 04:00 PM
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Max Power Offline
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RE: Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
Sorry we're gaining so many jobs Hambone.
04-04-2012 04:39 PM
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T-Monay820 Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
This is advocation of the typical leftwing, babysit government. And he tries to hide it by making "concessions" like the military and the judicial system, both of which are explicitly granted to the federal government in the constitution (convenient for the author to try and mask it by saying "That aside, here's one economist's list of the functions better accomplished at least in part by government than wholly left to markets."). Same thing with his use of public infrastructure, which I'm pretty sure most of the time is contracted out anyways. I don't know how a person can honestly believe that a government that represents 350 million people could even remotely administer healthcare, public education, and "social insurance for retirees" without either sucking at it, or driving the country completely bankrupt (despite the main problem of it not being a constitutionally assigned role). This was not an attempt to "pragmatically" address our budget issues. It was an attempt to justify the unconstitutional expansion of the federal government, for whatever disillusioned reason the author has.
04-04-2012 07:24 PM
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Jugnaut Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
Two competing visions:
Obama's plan: total debt and currency collapse due to uncontrolled spending, a hyper-inflationary depression then 3rd banana republic status.

Ryan's plan: attempt to rein in debt through painful cuts which still may be insufficient.

It's a clear choice which of those two is the better option even though there is no "good" option.
04-04-2012 07:41 PM
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BlazerFan11 Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
Quote:"I can't remember a time when the choice between two competing visions of our future has been so unambiguously clear."

I'd say Goldwater vs LBJ was a much starker contrast. Freedom vs freebies. Sadly, America chose freebies.

Quote:-Regulation of potentially harmful outcomes and markets, from food and air safety to financial market regulation, consumer protections, and so on. Some economists argue that this function could be accomplished by self-regulation -- if a food company's products killed people, or a bank sold toxic assets, they'd go out of business. But few people have that kind of faith in markets (actually, former Federal Reserve chair Alan Greenspan did so regarding financial regulation... but he was... um... wrong).

Utter BS. We already had one of the most highly regulated financial systems in the world prior to 2008. Regulation simply provides a golden opportunity to increase their influence over government. Unfortunate choice with the food company product killing people example...

Quote:The person who may be responsible for more food-related illness and death than anyone in history has just been made the US food safety czar.

Quote:If GMOs are indeed responsible for massive sickness and death, then the individual who oversaw the FDA policy that facilitated their introduction holds a uniquely infamous role in human history. That person is Michael Taylor. He had been Monsanto's attorney before becoming policy chief at the FDA. Soon after, he became Monsanto's vice president and chief lobbyist.

This month Michael Taylor became the senior advisor to the commissioner of the FDA. He is now America's food safety czar. What have we done?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-sm...43810.html

Quote:-Health care. This one's controversial these days, but it shouldn't be. The fact that it's not a normal market has led every other advanced economy to at least partially take this function out of the market, to avoid the "externalities" that arise when people forego coverage yet need care (which turns out to be a much bigger problem for society then if people forego the broccoli course).

Interesting that they chose healthcare to follow up the regulation section. Healthcare is arguably the single most heavily regulated industry in the U.S., and how's that working out for us?
04-04-2012 09:45 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
I agree with Obama about there never being a time in history where the contrast between ideologies have been so stark in contrast. In the past Socialism just crept in under the table and was ignored. Now it is out front leading the way!03-lmfao
04-05-2012 10:40 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
(04-04-2012 04:39 PM)Max Power Wrote:  Sorry we're gaining so many jobs Hambone.

Um really?? I guess if you continue to lower the bar, you will eventually get over it. These numbers are historically weak by any measure of a recovery, and especially with the unprecedented spending.

The greatest spending and the weakest recovery in the history of the world... CBO says the stumulus may have actually made things worse, and even Obama have admitted that the stimulus did far less then they envisioned... Vision vs reality

Obamas vision, articulated by him... Was that after passing the stimulus, unemployment wouldn't go above 8%... The REALITY is that we went to 10, and still aren't BELOW 8%. Vision vs reality is a *****, aint it??

He had 60 votes in the senate and he could have passed virtually anything, and his vision was on healthcare... Something that it appears in reality will be thrown out because he tried to get cute with verbage rather than just call a tax a tax... Vision versus reality...

I'm sure you will make excuses like things were worse than he thought... Vision vs reality

Or that republicans stopped him, despite the fact that he managed to push through a lot of spending and a massive bill with few votes from his opponents... Continuing to defy logic that he compromised with people who still didnt vote for the bill?? Vision vs reality

You can make excuses and applaud mediocre numbers... And yes, they do beat a sharp stick in the eye... But let's not act as if this is the recovery we were promised when we agreed to spend trillions and allowed the government to shift its focus to healthcare rather than jobs.

Which was it, was he a liar or incompetent? I mean, if your broker told you that if you invested $100,000 borrowed dollars in this stock, that you would earn that $200,000 your portfolio had lost back in ten years, and then later came to you and said... Well maybe not... But after dropping down to $80,000, your $100,000 investment is now back up to $95,000... And you hadnt begun to replace the money you originally lost, Would you consider that honest or intelligent? Or would you fire him? I mean, from OBamanomics, you're up $15,000. Right?? Woo hoo!!!
(This post was last modified: 04-05-2012 02:02 PM by Hambone10.)
04-05-2012 02:01 PM
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Max Power Offline
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RE: Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
But at least it's a recovery. And all recoveries aren't the same dude. This was caused by a severe shortage in consumer demand (caused by the housing crash) that had no answer in the private sector, thereby necessitating liquidity expansion and wealth transfers to those consumer demand drivers. Again, in 2001 most consumers still had that money to spend themselves so a stimulus wasn't necessary.

The CBO basically projects that the stimulus' long term effects, in a vacuum, will be negative 0.2% GDP growth and an even result on jobs. However the stimulus did not take place in a vacuum; many economists including Bush's own personal advisors said we were in danger of a second Great Depression that could last years, and if in fact that would have been the consequence of no stimulus then it was a godsend. Most peoples' wealth dried up; they weren't just being reluctant to spend it, although many with savings were holding out too. This demand downward spiral was causing more job loss and more people unable to spend so IMO a Great Depression II was very much a possibility and thank God the Republicans didn't get their way (of cutting spending, further killing demand).

When Obama made that unemployment prediction the GDP growth rate was estimated to be negative 3%; it was later revised nearly triple to negative 8%. That's why his unemployment prediction in January 2009 didn't come true as I'm mentioned many times before. This is a very simple concept but yet another which the right just completely ignores.

He didn't have the 60 votes in the Senate to do whatever he wanted; a few Dem senators (incl. a technically independent Lieberman) killed the public option. His calling it a tax makes no difference as to its constitutionality; SCOTUS decides that regardless of what the president calls it.

It's funny that no GOPers voted for Obamacare when many of them supported the mandate 20 years prior and their standard bearer this year signed it into law in his home state and expressed support for it as late as June 2009 (see my thread on the subject). Obama invited the GOP to the table for discussion and they refused. And the final bill did in fact have many other GOP ideas. It's bipartisan; the GOP is just led by obstructionists.
04-05-2012 03:28 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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RE: Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
(04-05-2012 03:28 PM)Max Power Wrote:  But at least it's a recovery. And all recoveries aren't the same dude. This was caused by a severe shortage in consumer demand (caused by the housing crash) that had no answer in the private sector, thereby necessitating liquidity expansion and wealth transfers to those consumer demand drivers. Again, in 2001 most consumers still had that money to spend themselves so a stimulus wasn't necessary.

The CBO basically projects that the stimulus' long term effects, in a vacuum, will be negative 0.2% GDP growth and an even result on jobs. However the stimulus did not take place in a vacuum; many economists including Bush's own personal advisors said we were in danger of a second Great Depression that could last years, and if in fact that would have been the consequence of no stimulus then it was a godsend. Most peoples' wealth dried up; they weren't just being reluctant to spend it, although many with savings were holding out too. This demand downward spiral was causing more job loss and more people unable to spend so IMO a Great Depression II was very much a possibility and thank God the Republicans didn't get their way (of cutting spending, further killing demand).

When Obama made that unemployment prediction the GDP growth rate was estimated to be negative 3%; it was later revised nearly triple to negative 8%. That's why his unemployment prediction in January 2009 didn't come true as I'm mentioned many times before. This is a very simple concept but yet another which the right just completely ignores.

He didn't have the 60 votes in the Senate to do whatever he wanted; a few Dem senators (incl. a technically independent Lieberman) killed the public option. His calling it a tax makes no difference as to its constitutionality; SCOTUS decides that regardless of what the president calls it.

It's funny that no GOPers voted for Obamacare when many of them supported the mandate 20 years prior and their standard bearer this year signed it into law in his home state and expressed support for it as late as June 2009 (see my thread on the subject). Obama invited the GOP to the table for discussion and they refused. And the final bill did in fact have many other GOP ideas. It's bipartisan; the GOP is just led by obstructionists.

That's right Max...Just totally ignore the fact that a Dem. POTUS started the ball rolling with the CRA. Liberals had nothing to do with causing the housing bubble and it subsequent bursting.03-lmfao
04-05-2012 03:33 PM
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Max Power Offline
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RE: Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
And you cons keep ignoring the fact only 6% of subprime loans were handed out by CRA-covered lenders to lower income people. But you can never pass up an opportunity to blame poors, can't you?
(This post was last modified: 04-05-2012 03:44 PM by Max Power.)
04-05-2012 03:44 PM
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RE: Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
(04-05-2012 03:44 PM)Max Power Wrote:  And you cons keep ignoring the fact only 6% of subprime loans were handed out by CRA-covered lenders to lower income people.

Nah...Clinton never said everyone deserves a house.04-cheers
04-05-2012 03:45 PM
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Max Power Offline
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RE: Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
Those generous investment bankers and credit ratings agencies really bought in I guess.
04-05-2012 03:47 PM
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RE: Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
(04-05-2012 03:47 PM)Max Power Wrote:  Those generous investment bankers and credit ratings agencies really bought in I guess.

No doubt that the cockroaches came from every crack to take advantage of the artificially lowered interest rates. 04-cheers
04-05-2012 03:51 PM
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Max Power Offline
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RE: Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
Well there must not be a lot of cracks because those poor people ("cockroaches") only accounted for 6% of the subprime loans.
(This post was last modified: 04-05-2012 03:53 PM by Max Power.)
04-05-2012 03:52 PM
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RE: Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
(04-05-2012 03:52 PM)Max Power Wrote:  Well there must not be a lot of cracks because those poor people ("cockroaches") only accounted for 6% of the subprime loans.

The entire damn fiasco should have never happened. It cost me probably 50K in wages over the last 3 years after the bubble burst because people that could not afford a home were encouraged by the government, the Fed and scumbag bankers to get into a market they could not afford. I don't put the blame all on one area. The CRA was just the first step in forging an attitude that encouraged this sh!t.
04-05-2012 04:05 PM
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Max Power Offline
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RE: Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
(04-05-2012 04:05 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I don't put the blame all on one area.

No, just more than 6% of the blame on the area that accounted for 6% of the subprime crisis.

(04-05-2012 04:05 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  The CRA was just the first step in forging an attitude that encouraged this sh!t.

You mean the American Dream? And the attitude of greed on Wall Street was a larger cause and very much predates the CRA.
(This post was last modified: 04-05-2012 05:07 PM by Max Power.)
04-05-2012 05:05 PM
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RE: Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
(04-05-2012 05:05 PM)Max Power Wrote:  
(04-05-2012 04:05 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I don't put the blame all on one area.

No, just more than 6% of the blame on the area that accounted for 6% of the subprime crisis.

(04-05-2012 04:05 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  The CRA was just the first step in forging an attitude that encouraged this sh!t.

You mean the American Dream? And the attitude of greed on Wall Street was a larger cause and very much predates the CRA.

Fortunately, Obama and his cabinet filled with Goldmanites aren't influenced by evil Wall Streeters, so those days are surely behind us now.

http://www.businessinsider.com/study-num...ly-2011-11
http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/01/briber...lders-doj/
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011...protection
(This post was last modified: 04-05-2012 05:46 PM by BlazerFan11.)
04-05-2012 05:46 PM
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Post: #20
RE: Ryan v Obama: A stark contrast of visions
(04-05-2012 05:05 PM)Max Power Wrote:  
(04-05-2012 04:05 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I don't put the blame all on one area.

No, just more than 6% of the blame on the area that accounted for 6% of the subprime crisis.

(04-05-2012 04:05 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  The CRA was just the first step in forging an attitude that encouraged this sh!t.

You mean the American Dream? And the attitude of greed on Wall Street was a larger cause and very much predates the CRA.

Max...Please. I know you feel the need to defend Liberalism at every turn. That is fine with me. The American dream is not partisan my friend and millions upon millions of people successfully own homes by doing the things necessary to own one despite what you call Wall Street Greed. There are no short cuts to that dream for most of us. It takes hard work and discipline.
04-05-2012 05:57 PM
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