(03-10-2012 02:20 PM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(03-10-2012 02:03 PM)ManOnABuffalo Wrote:  Look no further than Wikipedia

Stopped reading...

Look man, it wasn't a slight against App so stop getting hurt feelings, nor did I say that MT was some national relevant powerhouse. This isn't a pissing match about who's more relevant, I know exactly where Middle Tennessee and the Sun Belt stand in the grand scheme of things. The point that I was making was that I just don't see Appy bringing fans out significantly more than any other FCS school moving up. You're an FCS power, that's what you are, and the lowest rated bowl games draw more viewers than the FCS championship every single year. No one gives a damn about FCS football and as I said, we're getting further and further away from the last time anyone did give a damn about FCS football and that was when Appy beat Michigan. If you were joining a year or two after beating Michigan, than there'd be some excitement, but App State just isn't exponentially more exciting than anyone else we're talking about that's just the way I see it, you need to stop taking everything I say as a direct insult to App State.

Well I mean if history professors at top rated schools allow Wikipedia as a source I think it can apply here. No hurt feelings, but that might not be true for all those FCS fans you insult here. I mean those poor little FCS schools (from which your beloved came from) have made names for themselves stepping up when given the opportunity after the Michigan defeat. VT got beat by little instate school called JMU, and yes I can keep going......North Dakota State vs......etc, etc. I don't take everything you say as an insult to App State, you usually weigh in quite well on LA Tech from time to time.

(03-10-2012 02:54 PM)ManOnABuffalo Wrote:  

(03-10-2012 02:20 PM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(03-10-2012 02:03 PM)ManOnABuffalo Wrote:  Look no further than Wikipedia

Stopped reading...

Look man, it wasn't a slight against App so stop getting hurt feelings, nor did I say that MT was some national relevant powerhouse. This isn't a pissing match about who's more relevant, I know exactly where Middle Tennessee and the Sun Belt stand in the grand scheme of things. The point that I was making was that I just don't see Appy bringing fans out significantly more than any other FCS school moving up. You're an FCS power, that's what you are, and the lowest rated bowl games draw more viewers than the FCS championship every single year. No one gives a damn about FCS football and as I said, we're getting further and further away from the last time anyone did give a damn about FCS football and that was when Appy beat Michigan. If you were joining a year or two after beating Michigan, than there'd be some excitement, but App State just isn't exponentially more exciting than anyone else we're talking about that's just the way I see it, you need to stop taking everything I say as a direct insult to App State.

Well I mean if history professors at top rated schools allow Wikipedia as a source I think it can apply here. No hurt feelings, but that might not be true for all those FCS fans you insult here. I mean those poor little FCS schools (from which your beloved came from) have made names for themselves stepping up when given the opportunity after the Michigan defeat. VT got beat by little instate school called JMU, and yes I can keep going......North Dakota State vs......etc, etc. I don't take everything you say as an insult to App State, you usually weigh in quite well on LA Tech from time to time.

I don't mean to belittle FCS, I really don't, but the occasional upset does not make the FCS ranks interesting to the masses. Countless FCS over BCS AQ upsets have happened and will continue to happen, I'm an above average college football fan and I love seeing it happen, but App State over Michigan is one of the few that has ever resonated nationally to the extent that it did and we could go another fifty years and not see one like that again that was the perfect storm of the opening Saturday of the season, a traditional power ranked in the top 25, a FCS team with a bit of hype behind them and a highly entertaining game that ended in a way that appeared to have Michigan snatching victory from the jaws of defeat only to end in one of the most exciting ways a football game can end. While it still would have been a massive upset, I think that had App State won by like ten points with no scoring or drama in the final 10 minutes of the game, it would not have been as big of a deal or remembered the way that it is today.

And you're absolutely right, we pretty much all came from FCS with, I believe the lone exception of Louisiana, I'm not against FCS nor do not take it seriously, it's just that I, like everyone that's not a college football super fan, don't really pay any attention to it aside from the big upsets. And while we came from FCS, our schools made the decision and made the move and we're FBS now and I'll go back to my point, we all took very different paths to get here, but we're all reasonably similar programs. I have little doubt that App State could come in and be a success in the Sun Belt, probably faster than anyone else in consideration, but I don't think the fact that App State could be fully up to speed and competing for a championship in just a few seasons makes them an obvious pick when I think that any of the options could be fully up to speed and competing for championships within five years. Given each program ten years in the Sun Belt, anyone of them could reach the same level of success as the rest and that's been my point all along. If I were picking two FCS programs that were going to beef up the quality of our football as fast as possible, it would be App State and Georgia Southern, but that's simply not what I'm looking for in new members, I'm confident in the programs that we have currently that I don't think we have to take the programs that will be ready the fastest and that's why I consider other factors, primarily being centrally located within the existing divisions.

(03-10-2012 02:54 PM)ManOnABuffalo Wrote:  Well I mean if history professors at top rated schools allow Wikipedia as a source I think it can apply here.

And to your point about wikipedia, it's not about discrediting information on wikipedia as a whole, it's about not all information being treated equally. All it takes is one zealot on a topic with verifiable information to plug it all in.

DIII Mount Union could have one super fan fill out a page as extensive as anyone else's, it doesn't mean they're more relevant than App State, Middle Tennessee or anyone else.

(03-10-2012 02:54 PM)ManOnABuffalo Wrote:  

(03-10-2012 02:20 PM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(03-10-2012 02:03 PM)ManOnABuffalo Wrote:  Look no further than Wikipedia

Stopped reading...

Look man, it wasn't a slight against App so stop getting hurt feelings, nor did I say that MT was some national relevant powerhouse. This isn't a pissing match about who's more relevant, I know exactly where Middle Tennessee and the Sun Belt stand in the grand scheme of things. The point that I was making was that I just don't see Appy bringing fans out significantly more than any other FCS school moving up. You're an FCS power, that's what you are, and the lowest rated bowl games draw more viewers than the FCS championship every single year. No one gives a damn about FCS football and as I said, we're getting further and further away from the last time anyone did give a damn about FCS football and that was when Appy beat Michigan. If you were joining a year or two after beating Michigan, than there'd be some excitement, but App State just isn't exponentially more exciting than anyone else we're talking about that's just the way I see it, you need to stop taking everything I say as a direct insult to App State.

Well I mean if history professors at top rated schools allow Wikipedia as a source I think it can apply here. No hurt feelings, but that might not be true for all those FCS fans you insult here. I mean those poor little FCS schools (from which your beloved came from) have made names for themselves stepping up when given the opportunity after the Michigan defeat. VT got beat by little instate school called JMU, and yes I can keep going......North Dakota State vs......etc, etc. I don't take everything you say as an insult to App State, you usually weigh in quite well on LA Tech from time to time.

For the record the high school English teacher here doesn't count Wikipedia as a source. Though I allow my students to use links that wiki uses to reference something.

(03-10-2012 12:24 PM)Burn the Horse Wrote:  I think App State would be a respected choice, despite being an FCS move-up. I agree it is time to stop being the home for that, but the Mountaineers are different, they bring brand recognition and are widely regarded nationwide as a great program.

Bring in Tech and App State and I think both the fans and the nation would approve. App would also increase fan interest, something no other FCS program will do.

I would be okay with the combo of LA Tech and Appy State. Appy is the best known FCS program. Their win at the Big House is still the greatest upset I've ever seen, and I don't think the Sun Belt would take the perception hit any other FCS program would bring. I think LA Tech and Appy would both draw interest from our fan base.

(03-10-2012 06:43 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(03-10-2012 02:54 PM)ManOnABuffalo Wrote:  

(03-10-2012 02:20 PM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(03-10-2012 02:03 PM)ManOnABuffalo Wrote:  Look no further than Wikipedia

Stopped reading...

Look man, it wasn't a slight against App so stop getting hurt feelings, nor did I say that MT was some national relevant powerhouse. This isn't a pissing match about who's more relevant, I know exactly where Middle Tennessee and the Sun Belt stand in the grand scheme of things. The point that I was making was that I just don't see Appy bringing fans out significantly more than any other FCS school moving up. You're an FCS power, that's what you are, and the lowest rated bowl games draw more viewers than the FCS championship every single year. No one gives a damn about FCS football and as I said, we're getting further and further away from the last time anyone did give a damn about FCS football and that was when Appy beat Michigan. If you were joining a year or two after beating Michigan, than there'd be some excitement, but App State just isn't exponentially more exciting than anyone else we're talking about that's just the way I see it, you need to stop taking everything I say as a direct insult to App State.

Well I mean if history professors at top rated schools allow Wikipedia as a source I think it can apply here. No hurt feelings, but that might not be true for all those FCS fans you insult here. I mean those poor little FCS schools (from which your beloved came from) have made names for themselves stepping up when given the opportunity after the Michigan defeat. VT got beat by little instate school called JMU, and yes I can keep going......North Dakota State vs......etc, etc. I don't take everything you say as an insult to App State, you usually weigh in quite well on LA Tech from time to time.

For the record the high school English teacher here doesn't count Wikipedia as a source. Though I allow my students to use links that wiki uses to reference something.

Well the stigma that Wikipedia had when it first sprung up has since wore off at most schools. Now I am not stating that history profs will alow it as a primary source by any means, but you can use it to further your argument since it is vetted now.

(03-10-2012 02:23 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  I understand UNT fans are really wanting an alliance bid, so they are going to defend the move, but for the average SBC school the alliance will not necessarily increase attendance.

ASU fans will show up early next year because Gus Malzahn's the coach. It wont matter if we are playing Southern Miss or Alcorn State. At the same time, a game in November against UAB will bring about the same number of fans as a game against Troy would. Why? Because ASU fans dont necessarilly see UAB as a name. We dont see Marshall as a name, or Tulsa. Those are great programs, but they would not bring an increase in attendance for us just because of their presence.

I think your wrong. All those teams would bring out a bigger crowd than Troy, especially Tulsa. They are not a name like Ole Miss or Ok St, but more so than Troy or UNT. The SMU, Army, and Southern Miss games were all better attended than our typical conference games.

(03-10-2012 03:18 PM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(03-10-2012 02:54 PM)ManOnABuffalo Wrote:  Well I mean if history professors at top rated schools allow Wikipedia as a source I think it can apply here.

And to your point about wikipedia, it's not about discrediting information on wikipedia as a whole, it's about not all information being treated equally. All it takes is one zealot on a topic with verifiable information to plug it all in.

DIII Mount Union could have one super fan fill out a page as extensive as anyone else's, it doesn't mean they're more relevant than App State, Middle Tennessee or anyone else.

I gotcha there....not trying to stir trouble, only trying to show our resume and if we have a super fan that feels the need to update our wiki page every waking minute then I think that says a lot about our fanbase which I think you are learning is hyper-dedicated. I would love nothing more than to see App State and MTSU on the field, likewise with Troy, WKU, ASU, and we would like to see GaSo move as well (but I am supposed to hate them) I think most of our fans like the idea of that and see the Alliance as a waste of time. We would like to play ECU and Marshall again, but it seems those guys are spending all their energy trying to talk down to us or waiting for a Big East invite that won't come. Nevermind that our schools used to have a pretty good rivalry going not all that long ago.

(03-11-2012 09:41 AM)GoBigRed26 Wrote:  

(03-10-2012 02:23 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  I understand UNT fans are really wanting an alliance bid, so they are going to defend the move, but for the average SBC school the alliance will not necessarily increase attendance.

ASU fans will show up early next year because Gus Malzahn's the coach. It wont matter if we are playing Southern Miss or Alcorn State. At the same time, a game in November against UAB will bring about the same number of fans as a game against Troy would. Why? Because ASU fans dont necessarilly see UAB as a name. We dont see Marshall as a name, or Tulsa. Those are great programs, but they would not bring an increase in attendance for us just because of their presence.

I think your wrong. All those teams would bring out a bigger crowd than Troy, especially Tulsa. They are not a name like Ole Miss or Ok St, but more so than Troy or UNT. The SMU, Army, and Southern Miss games were all better attended than our typical conference games.

They were also played in September. We always draw really well in Septemberm and then attendance starts going down by October.

(03-10-2012 08:56 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  

(03-10-2012 12:24 PM)Burn the Horse Wrote:  I think App State would be a respected choice, despite being an FCS move-up. I agree it is time to stop being the home for that, but the Mountaineers are different, they bring brand recognition and are widely regarded nationwide as a great program.

Bring in Tech and App State and I think both the fans and the nation would approve. App would also increase fan interest, something no other FCS program will do.

I would be okay with the combo of LA Tech and Appy State. Appy is the best known FCS program. Their win at the Big House is still the greatest upset I've ever seen, and I don't think the Sun Belt would take the perception hit any other FCS program would bring. I think LA Tech and Appy would both draw interest from our fan base.

I would have to agree with you, someone will call me a homer but I live in Georgia right now on the Alabama line and I get folks asking me about that game all the time if I am wearing an App State Football tee. People who have followed football even casually recognize the App State brand. Could 5 out of 10 tell you where the school is? No, but they know about the Michigan game or know we won a ton of titles a few years back.

(03-08-2012 10:07 AM)cajunhawk Wrote:  What happens if the TV contract just bombs and they are making less money then their original CUSA/MWC contracts? What happens then? What if they reach for the markets to bump up the TV contract, and the TV execs say..."we did our research and no one watches these teams in this market"? People put the cart before the horse all the time, spending money they don't have, considering something as a constant when it is highly variable. I see the MergAlliance banking on a non-existent, highly variable TV contract that has yet to be seen. I'm sure they have had discussions, but discussions and signed contracts are two completely different animals. Methinks when the TV execs get together and really think about it, they low ball the MergAlliance. Why pay top dollar for something that was never top dollar to begin with? Conservatism is a lost art.

IMO, worst case scenario is that both leagues go back to being separate leagues (which I would prefer anyway "IF" UNT were part of this alliance).

Do The Math: Does a TV advertiser who is thinking about advertising with CUSA, the MWC or an Alliance want in a market that could get 5% viewership (yes, that's high but just using the number for an example) and that 5% out of 7 million population center or 5% of a market that has less than 200,000 in a 100 mile radius? SMU got into the Big East because of that TV market theory is what many of us have read. The Southern Miss AD has recently said that this alliance could give each school 3 X's the TV revenue it has had in the past as a CUSA school. He got those numbers and projections from someone at those meetings and would not have just pulled that idea clear out of blue sky.

If UNT Gets Invited To CUSA or the Alliance: UNT would for the first time at the FBS level get to play conference games with other FBS schools with decent proximity to the DFW Metroplex; even if just Southwest Airlines proximity like Tulane. A game with Rice would gives us (for the first time ever) trips to Houston every other year which is the 2'nd best fertile recruiting area in the USA behind the North Texas Metroplex. We have a conference history with Tulsa going back to our Missouri Valley Conference days and most of their alums want to re-new that. (Why not? We can't break the hold they've had on us). LOL! Also, we've played UTEP as much as any other school in CUSA as I recall even though they might go West in this Alliance.

Lets Face Some Facts Here: The SBC was a gathering place for schools that had nowhere else to go and for UNT the league came in handy post-Big West implosion. Wright Waters pulled a miracle by aligning with the NO's Bowl which gave him folk hero status with most all of us.

IMO.....the part that has hurt the 'Belt is that so many schools did not have NCAA D1 histories and that has hurt us all in getting Top 25 rankings (or votes) with some of our leagues better teams; even just receiving a sizeable number of votes if not Top 25 especially for a couple of Troy U teams IMO). Yet when I was a junior at UNT in 1975, we were playing and beating schools like Houston and Tennessee which begs the question: What were most all the other present SBC schools doing in 1975 and at what NCAA level?

Karl Benson, Commish' SBC: Even the new SBC Commish' has said that the 16 team consortium that he put together for the WAC would have worked if tweaked a bit and given more time to work. He probably knows this Alliance will also work for whatever reasons he had for the WAC-16. Just sayin'...

I think it is ridiculous that anyone would prefer adding NMSU, and extending the Sun Belt footprint 1,000 miles west, simply because they are already FBS. That is like a TV director hiring Snooki because she is already on a show, and turning down a girl from his neighborhood who is on the verge of graduating from acting school, knows how he likes a shooting day structured, and does everything possible not to ruffle anyone's feathers. But go ahead and take the problem child because she has more name recognition in the short term. Don't even bother thinking about the long haul.

CURRENT SUN BELT WEST
North Texas \ Louisiana-Lafayette
Louisiana-Monroe \ Arkansas State

CURRENT SUN BELT EAST
Western Kentucky \ Middle Tennessee
Troy \ South Alabama
FAU \ FIU

I have crossed out North Texas and FIU because of all the Alliance/Merger speculation just to illustrate a point. The Sun Belt would need three teams in the West and one in the East to bridge the gap between Alabama and Boca Raton. I think Texas State and UTSA should be a slam dunk package deal. Everyone wants Louisiana Tech, but I believe they are arrogant enough to keep saying no, so the Sun Belt should move on when that happens. There is no need to wait on them forever. Leave them in their own little fantasy world and settle for Lamar. A sensible fit is also important.

POSSIBLE SUN BELT WEST
Texas State \ UTSA
Lamar (if Louisiana Tech says no) \ Louisiana-Lafayette
Louisiana-Monroe \ Arkansas State

POSSIBLE SUN BELT EAST
Western Kentucky \ Middle Tennessee
Troy \ South Alabama
Georgia State (replacement for misguided jump) \ FAU

I think this is a solid line-up. The Sun Belt simply switches its Texas media market from Dallas to San Antonio, adds a travel partner for Louisiana-Lafayette if Louisiana Tech decides to gamble on praying for an invitation from the Alliance/Merger, and moves into into another large media market in Atlanta to replace a school which would be making a huge mistake by jumping in the first place. North Texas leaving makes sense. FIU, in my opinion, does not. Anyway, once the newbies and replacements settle in, the cohesiveness of the league will make the move up stigma go away.

Right now I think it is much more likely for UNT to leave then FIU.

(03-11-2012 02:00 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  Right now I think it is much more likely for UNT to leave then FIU.

It is only because you are an English teacher that I feel compelled to make you aware of your frequent habit of typing "then", when you mean "than."

you're welcome :)

(03-11-2012 02:09 PM)WinstonTheWolf Wrote:  

(03-11-2012 02:00 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  Right now I think it is much more likely for UNT to leave then FIU.

It is only because you are an English teacher that I feel compelled to make you aware of your frequent habit of typing "then", when you mean "than."

you're welcome :)

Unless he meant it's much more likely for UNT to leave and then for FIU to follow later... haha... but I've noticed a lot of people make that one.

(03-11-2012 09:49 AM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(03-11-2012 09:41 AM)GoBigRed26 Wrote:  I think your wrong. All those teams would bring out a bigger crowd than Troy, especially Tulsa. They are not a name like Ole Miss or Ok St, but more so than Troy or UNT. The SMU, Army, and Southern Miss games were all better attended than our typical conference games.

They were also played in September. We always draw really well in Septemberm and then attendance starts going down by October.

Very true our attendance is highest in Sept and lowest in Nov/Dec, but I still think Tulsa in Nov would outdraw Troy in Nov. If we had been in the same conference as Tulsa for 10 years than maybe that would wear off.

(03-11-2012 09:41 AM)GoBigRed26 Wrote:  

(03-10-2012 02:23 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  I understand UNT fans are really wanting an alliance bid, so they are going to defend the move, but for the average SBC school the alliance will not necessarily increase attendance.

ASU fans will show up early next year because Gus Malzahn's the coach. It wont matter if we are playing Southern Miss or Alcorn State. At the same time, a game in November against UAB will bring about the same number of fans as a game against Troy would. Why? Because ASU fans dont necessarilly see UAB as a name. We dont see Marshall as a name, or Tulsa. Those are great programs, but they would not bring an increase in attendance for us just because of their presence.

I think your wrong. All those teams would bring out a bigger crowd than Troy, especially Tulsa. They are not a name like Ole Miss or Ok St, but more so than Troy or UNT. The SMU, Army, and Southern Miss games were all better attended than our typical conference games.

This is the problem with the Sun Belt. Almost every Belt team's non conference games attract more fans than their conference games. I don't think it is just because the majority of those games are played early in the season. I think the fact that as the season moves along, most Sun Belt schools have losing records going into conference games. If your team is bad and the team coming to town is bad, that's not a recipe for a big crowd.

For the expansion fans, I don't see adding FCS programs helping with this problem.