The MAC just needs to sit back and relax. We have no real need to expand right this second. If somebody interesting approaches the MAC, than listen, otherwise, just let this play out. Lots will change over the next year or two. For instance, the CAA only has 10 football schools and even if they act not interested now, I think they will soon. JMU and ODU are both talking to the CUSA and Georgia State is talking to CUSA and the Sun-Belt. If a couple of the schools jump, not only will the CAA be weakened and down to 8 schools, but those regional "blocks" will be broken up that the UD, JMU, and ODU schools keep talking about. The Alliance doesn't have room for all of them, so whomever is left out in an 8 team CAA will come to us on their own. New Hampshire talks about dropping their football program due to budget problems.

On the basketball side, St. Louis is talking to the Missouri Valley and Xavier and Dayton are getting antsy. This changes things for UMass too. Alternatively, the A-10 is talking about stealing ODU, VCU, from the CAA. The CAA could get carved up and A-10 too.

Another possibility for the MAC is Appalachian State and Charlotte. Again, these two schools are probably wanting in the CUSA, but come on, the alliance doesn't have room for Delaware, ODU, JMU, App State, Charlotte, and UMass. So whomever gets lost in the shuffle with a picked over CAA will come knocking on the MAC's door eventually or get left out. Maybe our resident UMass fans can help me out, but that's the way I see it. And if the Alliance isn't interested in any of them, well then the MAC is the only show in town.

MAC needs to sit back and wait a year or so and be patient and we have no need to not be patient. There will be no more football-only deals. UMass gets a 2-year pass.

I think any conference needs to ask two questions before making any moves:

1. Do we need to expand?
2. If so, why? Are you looking for stability, improved academic profile, new/larger markets for TV rights, increased profile, etc.

Answering the basic questions first will help develop the appropriate strategy. I get the feeling that some conferences are expanding just for the sake of expanding and not really thinking through the ramifications. In some cases, like the MWC/CUSA & BE, it's for survival. In others, like the ACC, it's for money and stability. In any case, this whole situation is nuts and really a black period in college sports.

I agree with your first point, the MAC needs to relax and see how things shake out. You guys appear to be among the most stable of conferences, so I don't see any need to react quickly (if at all).

As for UMass, I think they are the ones that should be nervous. Stepping up to FBS is a huge risk for a NE university. If the MAC shows them the door after 2 years and the BE doesn't offer an invite, they'll have some big decisions to make. I kind of see them waiting for the "Big East-To-West" thing to fall apart and have the BE invite them. Until then, I believe they'll make nice with the MAC. I would.

The CAA thing is going to be interesting too. Half our league wants to move up to FBS, but the other half are happy where they're at. I think JMU would jump at a MAC invite. They're close to your footprint and football is their #1 sport (they suck at bb). I'm not sure ODU and Delaware would go unless it was a package deal. I think the big football schools and the Mason and VCU are going to become part of some new conference in the future...probably a more regional Southern/Mid-Atlantic conference. But that's off-topic.

If I were the MAC, the only way I would expand would be by adding all-sports teams that are GOOD at basketball. To me, that's the glaring weakness of your conference. The football is solid, but the basketball is marginal. If you get that side of the house squared away, you'll really raise your profile.

(03-02-2012 10:03 AM)Maryland Monarch Wrote:  If I were the MAC, the only way I would expand would be by adding all-sports teams that are GOOD at basketball. To me, that's the glaring weakness of your conference. The football is solid, but the basketball is marginal. If you get that side of the house squared away, you'll really raise your profile.

No, the glaring weakness of the MAC is attendance. Any and all actions, expansion and otherwise, should be targeted at improving attendance.

(03-02-2012 10:35 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 10:03 AM)Maryland Monarch Wrote:  If I were the MAC, the only way I would expand would be by adding all-sports teams that are GOOD at basketball. To me, that's the glaring weakness of your conference. The football is solid, but the basketball is marginal. If you get that side of the house squared away, you'll really raise your profile.

No, the glaring weakness of the MAC is attendance. Any and all actions, expansion and otherwise, should be targeted at improving attendance.

The problem is adding markets and improving attendance will usually pull you in opposite directions. Unless you're talking about adding a school similar to ECU who's draw pulls in enough to raise the average.

But Bigger trips, bigger drives, fewer fans from the other teams and chances are less of a natural hatred. There just one not schools close enough to bring new markets *and* improve attendance.

Want to improve attendance be good, be very good, for a long period of time.

..and ESPN midweek TV games! Ugh!

http://www.hustlebelt.com/2012/3/2/28395...sion-fever

i always tought MAC built itself up in case expansion filtered down to MAC.
And it did, & MAC was able to roll right along with no damage.
Now, WAC is almost gone, C-USA & MWC taking huge hits.
Would't MAC be next on the chopping block

(03-02-2012 02:11 PM)templefootballfan Wrote:  i always tought MAC built itself up in case expansion filtered down to MAC.
And it did, & MAC was able to roll right along with no damage.
Now, WAC is almost gone, C-USA & MWC taking huge hits.
Would't MAC be next on the chopping block

I think CUSA/MWC is in a situation now that most MAC schools probably wouldn't want to move there even if they got an invite. NIU would be hesitant, I would think, to move to a conference that might splinter again and leave NIU on an island. They've been marooned before.

And there won't be any invites from the Big East. So the MAC remains stable - Temple was an outlier.

(03-02-2012 02:27 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 02:11 PM)templefootballfan Wrote:  i always tought MAC built itself up in case expansion filtered down to MAC.
And it did, & MAC was able to roll right along with no damage.
Now, WAC is almost gone, C-USA & MWC taking huge hits.
Would't MAC be next on the chopping block

I think CUSA/MWC is in a situation now that most MAC schools probably wouldn't want to move there even if they got an invite. NIU would be hesitant, I would think, to move to a conference that might splinter again and leave NIU on an island. They've been marooned before.

And there won't be any invites from the Big East. So the MAC remains stable - Temple was an outlier.

You're spot on... I don't think there is any MAC school that would 'leap' to the alliance (maybe UMass). Some might go if the TV contract is big enough and they snag good bowl bids. But those are two big ifs.

I'd like the MAc to stay pat, maybe add 1 more (all ports), or the dream scenario others mentioned of JMU/ODU/UD all in. Aside from that I would rather UB droped to FCS and went to CAA than join the alliance and yes, I am dead serious.

so sch of East Car, Mass, Ohio & Rice would not intrest you
how about Marshall, toledo, tulsa, SoMiss

(03-02-2012 02:53 PM)templefootballfan Wrote:  so sch of East Car, Mass, Ohio & Rice would not intrest you
how about Marshall, toledo, tulsa, SoMiss

No...

You just Cant beat the MAC footprint! Makes non revenue sports more cost effective.

Would I like ECU and Mass in the MAC? sure...

But the idea of 'pods' has been tried and it failed horribly. Why leave the MAC for a conference that has, at best six years to live?

(03-02-2012 02:45 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 02:27 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 02:11 PM)templefootballfan Wrote:  i always tought MAC built itself up in case expansion filtered down to MAC.
And it did, & MAC was able to roll right along with no damage.
Now, WAC is almost gone, C-USA & MWC taking huge hits.
Would't MAC be next on the chopping block

I think CUSA/MWC is in a situation now that most MAC schools probably wouldn't want to move there even if they got an invite. NIU would be hesitant, I would think, to move to a conference that might splinter again and leave NIU on an island. They've been marooned before.

And there won't be any invites from the Big East. So the MAC remains stable - Temple was an outlier.

You're spot on... I don't think there is any MAC school that would 'leap' to the alliance (maybe UMass). Some might go if the TV contract is big enough and they snag good bowl bids. But those are two big ifs.

I'd like the MAc to stay pat, maybe add 1 more (all ports), or the dream scenario others mentioned of JMU/ODU/UD all in. Aside from that I would rather UB droped to FCS and went to CAA than join the alliance and yes, I am dead serious.

Yea, UMass might make that jump. And if we knew what kind of TV contract there would be for the alliance, and if the difference was still a lot, then things might change. Right now though, there are too many unknowns.

(03-02-2012 02:53 PM)templefootballfan Wrote:  so sch of East Car, Mass, Ohio & Rice would not intrest you
how about Marshall, toledo, tulsa, SoMiss

NIU, Toledo, Miami, Ohio, Marshal & ECU...sure but other than that no.

(03-02-2012 02:53 PM)templefootballfan Wrote:  so sch of East Car, Mass, Ohio & Rice would not intrest you
how about Marshall, toledo, tulsa, SoMiss

Most of the aliance schools mean very little to the fans of the MAC and why should they? we generally have very little history with them and they are certainly not local draws.

How would attendance be singled out as an expansion issue? It's only a piece of the pie of revenues, which is what drives reallignment along with measureables like brand, market, academics, and to a lesser measure, recent succes. As long as a school meets the attendance threshold, it's mere perception, and very little that is tangible.

TV, advertising, contributions, grants, state funds, conference and BCS revenues, those are the keys to revenue. If attendance mattered that much, a group of Big12 members wouldn't have seriously talked about the merits of Tulane. And while some of BC's sport attendance suffer when they are down, all that cash in their coffers makes everything better, and makes improving rapidly possible.

(03-02-2012 10:45 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 10:35 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 10:03 AM)Maryland Monarch Wrote:  If I were the MAC, the only way I would expand would be by adding all-sports teams that are GOOD at basketball. To me, that's the glaring weakness of your conference. The football is solid, but the basketball is marginal. If you get that side of the house squared away, you'll really raise your profile.

No, the glaring weakness of the MAC is attendance. Any and all actions, expansion and otherwise, should be targeted at improving attendance.

The problem is adding markets and improving attendance will usually pull you in opposite directions. Unless you're talking about adding a school similar to ECU who's draw pulls in enough to raise the average.

But Bigger trips, bigger drives, fewer fans from the other teams and chances are less of a natural hatred. There just one not schools close enough to bring new markets *and* improve attendance.

Want to improve attendance be good, be very good, for a long period of time.

The MAC has to improve the product if it wants more attention.

At the non-AQ level where because of smaller enrollments programs aren't going to draw more than 35,000 to reach that peak in interest requires a sustained run of 5 years in the top 25 to top 40.

There is no way that 8 MAC football programs show up in the top 40 like what you find in the SEC so at best you are hoping for perhaps a top layer of programs to emerge to give the conference a solid identity.

The MWC had Utah, BYU, TCU lead the way...the WAC had Boise, Fresno and Hawaii.

Who does the MAC have? In the west they have Northern Illinois and Toledo playing consistently. In the east with Temple's departure its just going to be Ohio. This is where I think adding Appalachian State and James Madison could be an asset to MAC football by giving the league a couple more consistent programs.

East: Ohio, ASU, JMU
West: Toledo, NIU, WMU

That is why I'm in favor of getting back to 14 (all sports of course) to add some more depth to the football conference. With ASU and JMU that would for the MAC produce 6 programs regularly at the 7-5 level or better.

Keeping the football conference strong will translate into a better basketball TV deal for the MAC which is turn is going to help recruiting. Toledo, Ball State, Eastern Michigan all should be stronger out of the MAC West and by adding ASU/JMU that would send Bowling Green to the west division, adding further depth.

2011-12 RPI

70 Akron
72 Ohio
79 Buffalo
99 Kent State
235 Miami (Oh)
252 James Madison
269 Appalachian State

140 Bowling Green
195 Western Michigan
212 Eastern Michigan
249 Ball State
258 Toledo
289 Central Michigan
338 Northern Illinois

With a better basketball TV deal in time the MAC could become a 2 NCAA/2 NIT level conference which is about the right level in men's basketball for this group of programs. Better play will raise basketball attendance across the conference.

(03-02-2012 06:37 PM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote:  How would attendance be singled out as an expansion issue? It's only a piece of the pie of revenues, which is what drives reallignment along with measureables like brand, market, academics, and to a lesser measure, recent succes. As long as a school meets the attendance threshold, it's mere perception, and very little that is tangible.

TV, advertising, contributions, grants, state funds, conference and BCS revenues, those are the keys to revenue. If attendance mattered that much, a group of Big12 members wouldn't have seriously talked about the merits of Tulane. And while some of BC's sport attendance suffer when they are down, all that cash in their coffers makes everything better, and makes improving rapidly possible.

I would also add to that list of importance recruiting.

Recruiting is one reason why the MAC would have been better to upgrade James Madison instead of UMass which has a more talented football state in Virginia that is heavily recruited by MAC schools.

Expanding the recruiting footprint to the southeast makes a lot of sense for the MAC. A lot of those 3 star guys that are going to Marshall and East Carolina may pick James Madison and Appalachian State instead of traveling many miles across the country in the Alliance.

(03-02-2012 06:54 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  I would also add to that list of importance recruiting.

Recruiting is one reason why the MAC would have been better to upgrade James Madison instead of UMass which has a more talented football state in Virginia that is heavily recruited by MAC schools.

Expanding the recruiting footprint to the southeast makes a lot of sense for the MAC. A lot of those 3 star guys that are going to Marshall and East Carolina may pick James Madison and Appalachian State instead of traveling many miles across the country in the Alliance.

UMass trumps them in market potential, academics, overall institutional revenues, brand, the ability to be FB only, and more. It's akin to the ACC grabbing SU, or WVU to the Big12..recruiting area is further down the list.

I may be mistaken but I seem to recall that the MAC must get a waiver from the NCAA to hold its football championship because of the uneven divisions. Does anyone know if this is correct?

(03-02-2012 07:03 PM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 06:54 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  I would also add to that list of importance recruiting.

Recruiting is one reason why the MAC would have been better to upgrade James Madison instead of UMass which has a more talented football state in Virginia that is heavily recruited by MAC schools.

Expanding the recruiting footprint to the southeast makes a lot of sense for the MAC. A lot of those 3 star guys that are going to Marshall and East Carolina may pick James Madison and Appalachian State instead of traveling many miles across the country in the Alliance.

UMass trumps them in market potential, academics, overall institutional revenues, brand, the ability to be FB only, and more. It's akin to the ACC grabbing SU, or WVU to the Big12..recruiting area is further down the list.

Can't argue with UMass institutionally or academically but I really question that they have much of a brand right now as weak as what they are in the two major sports. I'll have to admit as a Bobcat fan I'm going to feel like we have an FCS on the schedule when UMass rolls into town and not a major team. Obviously this could change if they start wining in the MAC but I can't see that for a while.

If UMass is going to be expected to get the MAC GOTW on in Boston and Hartford then JMU is likewise capable in DC and Richmond. From the regional TV perspective the two schools are equal.

JMU has the recruiting edge and plays in a 25,000 seat on campus stadium (regularly filled). I just think they would have been a better pick overall for the MAC. I guess in the context of the MAC having both Temple and UMass in the league from a rivalry standpoint the UMass addition made sense.

I vote all-sports for UMass in two years or no sports. Its silly to stay in the A10 without Temple and a some of the western programs like St. Louis, Xavier and Dayton looking around.