"Damnation seize my soul if I give you quarters, or take any from you." -Edward "Blackbeard" Teach

Blackbeard said that when he was about to face Johnson in his last battle. Is this ECU's last battle to join the "big boy's" of college football?

I don't think I could be more skeptical of this Alliance, especially after I saw it mentioned that teams would be signing over their TV rights to the new conference. It seems like surrender to me.

I want an honest discussion and full disclosure on the possiblity or impossiblity of going Independent again. Is it really that much of a financial burden? Will it be impossible to fill a schedule? Will parking basketball and olympics in the A-10 or CAA really hurt?

Coach Holland is by far the most qualified man to lead ECU athletics. If the fight to join the current AQ conferences is really out of our reach, then perhaps its time to sail in another direction. If any AD could establish ECU as a formidable and successfull stand alone Independent football team it's Coach Holland.

Thoughts?

I guess I should start with my arguement for going Independent. I don't have all the information, all the financials, none of us do. Last I recall ECU was getting somewhere between $2.5 and $3 million in TV money. Would it really be too much of a financial burden to give that up? Is there anyway to make up that money elsewhere? How much travel money would be saved across all athletics if ECU never played anybody further west than Tulane on a regular basis? Is it possible to reach a stand alone TV deal again? What's wrong with scheduling a one time money game with a team like Oklahoma, Nebraska, Wisconsin, or someone else once a year or every other year?
I don't believe it will hurt home attendance much. The current conference games sell out or come close, why shouldn't games against MAC, Sunbelt, or a regional and relevant FCS team? The current BE is in a serious scheduling problem. I find it hard to believe ECU couldn't schedule two games a year agasint them. ECU already has two ACC games a year in the near future. Continue to develop the SEC connection established during the two Liberty Bowl games and now with USC. Schedule games with Alliance members from CUSA. Point is scheduling shouldn't be a concern.
I wouldn't mind seeing ECU make it's own way as an Indepenent, even if it means struggling a bit. In my opinion better to struggle and fight on your own than to fade into obscurity as part of a monsterous 30 team conference/subdivision.

My Stance has remained the same since the ACC took Syracuse and Pitt

Now obviously Holland and Ballard have some idea about the TV revenue this new conglomeration is conjuring up.
Now it also could be argued that we are THE premier program in this entire group. Could we garner an independent contract worth the same to us on our own? Couldn't some logic tell you that the UAB, Rice, Tulane are watering down our potential tv value?

Obviously a large part of the revenue/appeal this league would bring in would be from the mini football playoff and mini bball tourny and independence clearly would eliminate us from this exposure and revenue. However being that we're way out here on the east coast... these tournaments and games are basically guaranteed to be long road games for us and that concerns me. We're still on the outskirts of this and IMO no different than Hawaii. We should be extremely cautious regarding all-sport membership.

INDEPENDENT - the only way to fight for our deserved inclusion. Its a temporary and necessary evil.
We must prove that we can deliver the media markets of this entire state and chunks of our neighbors'.
We CAN find opponents to fill in 12 dates a year.
We CAN negotiate a bowl tie-in.
We CAN use an annual neutral site game (Charlotte and DC and maybe Atlanta) to create a marquee matchup (Bowl Atmosphere Game) during the regular season and use this in our television negotiations.
We CAN prove to the SEC and the media that we are #15! We Are not #32!

(02-15-2012 09:05 AM)PiKappWags Wrote:  My Stance has remained the same since the ACC took Syracuse and Pitt

Now obviously Holland and Ballard have some idea about the TV revenue this new conglomeration is conjuring up.
Now it also could be argued that we are THE premier program in this entire group. Could we garner an independent contract worth the same to us on our own? Couldn't some logic tell you that the UAB, Rice, Tulane are watering down our potential tv value?

Obviously a large part of the revenue/appeal this league would bring in would be from the mini football playoff and mini bball tourny and independence clearly would eliminate us from this exposure and revenue. However being that we're way out here on the east coast... these tournaments and games are basically guaranteed to be long road games for us and that concerns me. We're still on the outskirts of this and IMO no different than Hawaii. We should be extremely cautious regarding all-sport membership.

INDEPENDENT - the only way to fight for our deserved inclusion. Its a temporary and necessary evil.
We must prove that we can deliver the media markets of this entire state and chunks of our neighbors'.
We CAN find opponents to fill in 12 dates a year.
We CAN negotiate a bowl tie-in.
We CAN use an annual neutral site game (Charlotte and DC and maybe Atlanta) to create a marquee matchup (Bowl Atmosphere Game) during the regular season and use this in our television negotiations.
We CAN prove to the SEC and the media that we are #15! We Are not #32!

Agree on all points save UAB, Rice, and Tulane watering down the tv value. They bring markets as large or larger than Greenville, so on a TV deal I don't see them being a liability.
To me the real point that has to be pushed is that ECU can draw significant numbers statewide. Its esentially a fight to declare ECU the biggest football draw in the state and not UNC or NCSU. Put ECU and any SEC or out of state ACC team on tv and people will watch it.

A successful[/b] 5-10 year run as an Independent is the only course of action that will ever get ECU into a better football scenario.

I hate our situation, but going Indy would kill our program much faster than the across the country suck conference will.

(02-15-2012 06:59 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  I hate our situation, but going Indy would kill our program much faster than the across the country suck conference will.

Why do you think so? Some of ECU football's more productive years were during the last Indpendent stretch. I realize that college football is a much larger business now, but given how little ECU received from CUSA and will potentially receive from the Alliance, is it really a huge financial discrepency?

If it's a choice between dying slowly in a country-wide sucky conference or a last ditch leap of faith into Independence, I choose Independence. I just don't want to see ECU get tied into something that doesn't pan out or that we can't get out of.

(02-15-2012 08:23 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(02-15-2012 06:59 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  I hate our situation, but going Indy would kill our program much faster than the across the country suck conference will.

Why do you think so? Some of ECU football's more productive years were during the last Indpendent stretch. I realize that college football is a much larger business now, but given how little ECU received from CUSA and will potentially receive from the Alliance, is it really a huge financial discrepency?

If it's a choice between dying slowly in a country-wide sucky conference or a last ditch leap of faith into Independence, I choose Independence. I just don't want to see ECU get tied into something that doesn't pan out or that we can't get out of.

How little we received from CUSA? Really? Moving to CUSA from the CAA was a financial boon for us!


Unless we are Notre Dame or BYU we can't "afford" to not be in a conference.


yeah, we might be able to come up with a 12 game schedule but do you recall the year we went 8-4 and sat at home for bowls?

You need the bowl tie ins from your conference affiliation.


Who is going to put you on tv now? Your FOX Sports South/FOX Sports, ESPN, CBS CSTV aren't going to throw you a bone as a solo act when they can get conference deals. At best you are on tv based on your opponents tv deal. WITN can't even fund HD broadcasts of your games for local tv.


IMO the thoughts if Independence being so great are clouded by the fact we did it a long time ago. However, that time has passed.

(02-15-2012 10:14 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  How little we received from CUSA? Really? Moving to CUSA from the CAA was a financial boon for us!


Unless we are Notre Dame or BYU we can't "afford" to not be in a conference.


yeah, we might be able to come up with a 12 game schedule but do you recall the year we went 8-4 and sat at home for bowls?

You need the bowl tie ins from your conference affiliation.


Who is going to put you on tv now? Your FOX Sports South/FOX Sports, ESPN, CBS CSTV aren't going to throw you a bone as a solo act when they can get conference deals. At best you are on tv based on your opponents tv deal. WITN can't even fund HD broadcasts of your games for local tv.


IMO the thoughts if Independence being so great are clouded by the fact we did it a long time ago. However, that time has passed.

I certainly agree that a lot of things have changed since ECU was last an independent. The financial benefits that CUSA has provided ECU have paved the way for much of the improvements over the past 10 years or so, however, as CUSA is about to dissolve I really think ECU need to be sure that getting locked into something like this Alliance is the ONLY option. Especially if signing away long term TV rights is part of the deal.

I think ECU needs that chip back on it's shoulder and going Independent may be the best way to get there. Consider it going all-in. Sell it to the recruit that their class and the next are going to be the ones that put ECU on the map. Bowl tie-ins be damned. If ECU can't go 7-5 or better then they don't deserve a bowl. If ECU were playing (and beating) three or more good AQ schools a year bowls in the SE would make arrangements to have a spot for a ranked ECU that will bring 8 to 10k fans.
There isn't time to be part of a weak conference and win year after year like BSU did, hoping to get picked up. As soon as the next round of expansion shakes out I think thing may settle down a bit. I don't want ECU putting itself in a position to be relagated to a new subdivision or being shut out of competing with regional schools who happen to be in better conferences.

Can someone tell me who we would fill our schedule out with if we did not have a conference tie in? A bunch of FCS schools?

The landscape of college football has changed dramatically since we were last independent. If it was so great, why did we get in a conference in the first place? Because we couldn't get anything resembling a fair shake otherwise.

The best thing for NCSU and UNC would be if we went indy. They would crush us in recruiting year in and year out and then they would probably drop us from their schedules, just to finish us off.

(02-16-2012 11:19 AM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Can someone tell me who we would fill our schedule out with if we did not have a conference tie in? A bunch of FCS schools?

The landscape of college football has changed dramatically since we were last independent. If it was so great, why did we get in a conference in the first place? Because we couldn't get anything resembling a fair shake otherwise.

The best thing for NCSU and UNC would be if we went indy. They would crush us in recruiting year in and year out and then they would probably drop us from their schedules, just to finish us off.

ECU joined a conference with a lot of potential... Just look how many CUSA members are now in the BE. Whats left of CUSA and the Alliance members isn't anything close to what ECU gave up it's Indpendent status for.

Scheduling wouldn't be an issue at all. There's USM, Tulane, Marshall, UAB, UNC, NCSU, App St, VT, UVA, Wake, Duke, Maryland, ODU, JM, the entire BE that will need OOC games, and a developing relationship with the SEC from the two Liberty Bowls and now USC. I have absolute confidence that of all the factors in being Independent, the scheduling isn't the one that would cause TH to balk at the idea.

UNC and NCSU already "crush" ECU in recruiting every year. And ECU still plays them both close. UNC has a very uncertain near future with the NCAA decision still to come. NCSU or ECU should be the top team in the state for the duration of the UNC penalties unless they basically get a pass from the NCAA. Only one thing really helps recruiting against in state competition. Winning, and ECU isn't doing that now.

Im curious as to how you think ECU, or anybody else for that matter, has gotten a fair shake as a member of CUSA? The writing was on the wall before the last four teams left. The SEC and BE had already started to muscle CUSA out of the Liberty bowl. A 5-7 PAC team went to a bowl. Do you think there would ever have been an allowance for a 5-7 CUSA team to go to a bowl? The big 5 have an agenda and they are following it. NBC, CBS, and Fox can't compete with ESPN when it comes to TV money. The remaining teams aren't worth enough, ECU included. However the next BCS contract works out, it won't be favorable to the nBE and certainly won't be kind to the current Non-AQ's or this alliance.

Stay regional, schedule 3-4 wins a year and develop enough talent to win another 3-4 against our AQ neighbors. Keep costs down, play a big money game each year to help make up TV revenue. Come to an agreement with BOA stadium to play an opening day game there each year against the SEC.

By no means would going back to an Independent be easy or financially productive, but ECU's facilities are pretty much top shelf for a non AQ. Once the basketball facility is finished it would be hard to find nice facilities anywhere around. Fill the stadium, fill the coloseum, and put that chip back on ECU's shoulder. Charge the players and fans with the future of ECU athletics. The players need to win more, the fans need to give more, show up more and be louder. DF should be deafening the entire game, not just the first qtr. Minges gets loud when its half filled, the fans need to make it louder.

I'm willing to keep an open mind about the Alliance until all the details are out. It should be a step forward from CUSA, not back. My current opinion is that its a fast-track to the big5 getting their own subdivision or the alliance being relagated back to FCS.

No matter where ECU end up, I'll be in the stands doing my part every chance I get.

Seriously, show me a 12 game schedule that doesn't include 2 or more FCS teams. Remember that everybody else is filling at the most 4 OOC games. Several of the conferences I think are going to 9 conference games. On the other hand, if we wanted a max of 4 home games a year, then Indy is the way to go.

(02-16-2012 03:16 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Seriously, show me a 12 game schedule that doesn't include 2 or more FCS teams. Remember that everybody else is filling at the most 4 OOC games. Several of the conferences I think are going to 9 conference games. On the other hand, if we wanted a max of 4 home games a year, then Indy is the way to go.

USM, Tulane, Marshall, UAB, FAU, UNC, NCSU, VT, App St, Rutgers, USF, USC.
ECU has a history with every team above except Rutgers and FAU, so it's not even that far fetched.

That was easy. There are 5 instate schools ECU could play, only 2 a year will be needed. The remaining CUSA East schools will all have a schedule to fill as well as Memphis and UCF. It wouldn't necessarily be pretty each year, but it can be done. Throw in a pay game with Oklahoma, Nebraska, or Wisconsin every couple years and ECU would not only have a pretty attactive schedule, but one that ECU fans will come to watch and travel to away games wouldn't be nearly as bad for fans.

(02-16-2012 03:34 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(02-16-2012 03:16 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Seriously, show me a 12 game schedule that doesn't include 2 or more FCS teams. Remember that everybody else is filling at the most 4 OOC games. Several of the conferences I think are going to 9 conference games. On the other hand, if we wanted a max of 4 home games a year, then Indy is the way to go.

USM, Tulane, Marshall, UAB, FAU, UNC, NCSU, VT, App St, Rutgers, USF, USC.
ECU has a history with every team above except Rutgers and FAU, so it's not even that far fetched.

USM, UNC, NCSU, & Vatek probably won't have us on the schedule every year. My guess is that neither Rutgers or USF would be willing to come to Greenville for anything less than a 2 for 1 if even that. USC requires a sweetened pot with a Charlotte game or two. Maybe we get 1 for 1's with Marshall, Tulane, and UAB. App State year and and year out would eventually want a return trip to Boone...Woohoo. Seriously, most years we would be lucky to string together 12 teams with 5 home games. That sucks!

I don't think a return to independence would be possible unless several teams went indy that we could set up a scheduling/bowl alliance with.

(02-16-2012 03:43 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  USM, UNC, NCSU, & Vatek probably won't have us on the schedule every year. My guess is that neither Rutgers or USF would be willing to come to Greenville for anything less than a 2 for 1 if even that. USC requires a sweetened pot with a Charlotte game or two. Maybe we get 1 for 1's with Marshall, Tulane, and UAB. App State year and and year out would eventually want a return trip to Boone...Woohoo. Seriously, most years we would be lucky to string together 12 teams with 5 home games. That sucks!

USM would be as close to a lock game as possible. How long have the two been playing? ECU wouldn't need UNC, NCSU, and VT in the same year, exchange any of the above with UVA, Duke, or Wake.

Rutgers and USF or any other BE team isn't exactly in the position to demand 2 for 1's. ECU had a I think has another home and home series with WVU (maybe changed now that they're Big12) and let's face it, nobody left in the BE is on the same level as WVU.

App St would deserve a home game every couple years, maybe a 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 deal. It wasn't that long ago that ECU was where App is now. Let's not act like UNC or NCSU would towards ECU.

The Charlotte games have been a pretty good success. Use that for a substitute for a bowl if ECU were to have a winning season and stil be left out. Would it be so bad to start the season there against USC, Tenn, Georgia, or Vandy? Just put the Citadel, JMU, or ODU on the schedule when ECU plays in Charlotte so there can still be 6 home games.

Bottom line is I'm sure TH could put together a good schedule year in and year out.

What I would really love is to have a better idea what kind of financial burden it would put on ECU to lose the conference TV money. Could ECU help make up for that by putting olympics and basketball back in the CAA? Is it possible to weather being an Independent long enough to take one more stab at getting picked up by a major conference before ECU binds itself and it's TV rights to a brand new conference at the same time the BCS is probably being revamped?

Scheduling
Go ahead and consider it 10 games because you know we can line up games with ODU, Richmond, JMU etc. to fill up 2. Im not opposed to scheduling games at these schools even but under 3 for 1 circumstances. It's better terms than other schools are offering. We could ignore ever playing them away by offering larger ticket allotments where they keep the revenue. They'll all bring more fans than any CUSA school has EVER brought to Dowdy. I'm all for bringing in lodging/restaurant money from SC and VA residents for Greenville.
SO I ask you Graybeard... whats wrong with 2 on our schedule? Everybody else does it.

1/2 - If you want to get politicians involved for actual results then UNC-CH and NCState (not to mention Duke and Wake [yes i know they are private]) need to be on board. Lets say we play 1 to 2 games a year against in state opponents all under 1 for 1 terms. You would likely have to include App State here too.
1 - game against a florida school every year (UCF/USF/FIU/FAU)
1 - game against a texas school every year (no shortage there toss in Big 12 teams here)
1 - An annual game against USM (they shouldn't feel betrayed by us going indy)
There's 6.5 games


1 game against northern pals (VaTech/UVA/Navy/Maryland/WVU)
1 game against old conference mates (Memphis/UAB/Tulane/Marshall/Louisville/Cincy)
2 games against the SEC (*with Charlotte in play)
1 game against the Big 10 (*with DC in play)
1 game against the rest MAC/Sunbelt (Ohio, Toledo, NIU, WKU, MTSU, Troy, La Tech)
Thats 12.5 games for a start and once the SEC and Big Ten teams start appearing we would have multiple contracts working and fade out some of the lesser opponents i listed above.

Do you think that a Big 10 team or any SEC team not named USC will play in Dowdy Ficklen? I doubt it. It would make more sense for them to bring in a body bag game at home. I don't think we get more than 5 home games a year, and that is a crappy sell to recruits.

(02-16-2012 05:07 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Do you think that a Big 10 team or any SEC team not named USC will play in Dowdy Ficklen? I doubt it. It would make more sense for them to bring in a body bag game at home. I don't think we get more than 5 home games a year, and that is a crappy sell to recruits.

We'd probably have to count on some 2-for-1's with Sun Belt or MAC schools to balance out 1-for-2's with higher profile teams. It would be pretty tough to get 6 home games each year but I bet we could. Probably 7 if we play an FCS school every year. Where I see the biggest problem (and why I think you need more independent teams out there to make this work) is getting actual dates lined up - after the first four weeks, when most conferences are in the thick of their conference slates, we would be hard pressed to find games.

(02-16-2012 05:07 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Do you think that a Big 10 team or any SEC team not named USC will play in Dowdy Ficklen? I doubt it. It would make more sense for them to bring in a body bag game at home. I don't think we get more than 5 home games a year, and that is a crappy sell to recruits.

Kentucky, Arkansas, Vandy could probably be enticed. Home, Home, and Charlotte would work well for all three. I don't think ECU could ever pull a Big10 team at Dowdy.
There is a selling point to the recruits in all this thats been overlooked. How many other teams could tell their recruits they will be playing agasint SEC, ACC, and BE opponents every year?