(01-20-2012 01:38 PM)Rebel Wrote:  Equitable distribution? I think both of you need to understand that government does not CREATE the damn wealth. Those dollar bills are nothing but a vehicle used to materialize someone's wealth and earnings. They could just as easily trade those dollar bills in for Euros. The dollar bill, nothing but a piece of f'n paper, is the ONLY thing the government controls.

Reb, I'm not disagreeing with you.

What I'm saying is that the way to get sustained better distribution is to create more wealth. And only the private sector can do that. The government can't create upper-middle class jobs in the number required to produce a better distribution of wealth. Only the private sector can do that. What the government can do is to encourage--rather than to discourage--the private sector to do that.

This was pretty much Ross Perot's message. We need someone else to reprise it.

(01-20-2012 01:43 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 01:38 PM)Rebel Wrote:  Equitable distribution? I think both of you need to understand that government does not CREATE the damn wealth. Those dollar bills are nothing but a vehicle used to materialize someone's wealth and earnings. They could just as easily trade those dollar bills in for Euros. The dollar bill, nothing but a piece of f'n paper, is the ONLY thing the government controls.

Reb, I'm not disagreeing with you.

What I'm saying is that the way to get sustained better distribution is to create more wealth. And only the private sector can do that. The government can't create upper-middle class jobs in the number required to produce a better distribution of wealth. Only the private sector can do that. What the government can do is to encourage--rather than to discourage--the private sector to do that.

This was pretty much Ross Perot's message. We need someone else to reprise it.

Problem is the private secor as a whole doesn't want that. They want to continue lowering wages and keeping profits high while enriching their CEO's(then of course, they can also steal millions of dollars of merchandise for their own benefit because the millions they already make just isn't enough).

(01-20-2012 01:48 PM)RobertN Wrote:  Problem is the private secor as a whole doesn't want that. They want to continue lowering wages and keeping profits high while enriching their CEO's(then of course, they can also steal millions of dollars of merchandise for their own benefit because the millions they already make just isn't enough).

So how do you propose to create more middle- to upper-middle-class jobs? Because that is what is needed to produce a more equitable distribution of income.

(01-20-2012 01:48 PM)RobertN Wrote:  Problem is the private secor as a whole doesn't want that. They want to continue lowering wages and keeping profits high while enriching their CEO's(then of course, they can also steal millions of dollars of merchandise for their own benefit because the millions they already make just isn't enough).

Question: If you have correctly stated the problem (and I'm in no way agreeing that you have, but just assuming hypothetically for the sake of argument) then answer this--why does the solution lie in government control?

Government bureaucrats are just as greedy, corrupt, and unethical as the CEO's that you are vilifying. That's where your analysis breaks down. If people are truly that corrupt, then the less power they have to screw me over the better, and government bureaucrats always have the power to hurt me in more ways (jail, fines, confiscation) than any corporate CEO does.

(01-20-2012 01:57 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 01:48 PM)RobertN Wrote:  Problem is the private secor as a whole doesn't want that. They want to continue lowering wages and keeping profits high while enriching their CEO's(then of course, they can also steal millions of dollars of merchandise for their own benefit because the millions they already make just isn't enough).

Question: If you have correctly stated the problem (and I'm in no way agreeing that you have, but just assuming hypothetically for the sake of argument) then answer this--why does the solution lie in government control?

Government bureaucrats are just as greedy, corrupt, and unethical as the CEO's that you are vilifying. That's where your analysis breaks down. If people are truly that corrupt, then the less power they have to screw me over the better, and government bureaucrats always have the power to hurt me in more ways (jail, fines, confiscation) than any corporate CEO does.

Yes. I can refuse to support a business that engages in unethical behavior without any consequences. I can't withdraw my support of bureaucrats unless I like a cold jail cell.

(01-20-2012 01:57 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-20-2012 01:48 PM)RobertN Wrote:  Problem is the private secor as a whole doesn't want that. They want to continue lowering wages and keeping profits high while enriching their CEO's(then of course, they can also steal millions of dollars of merchandise for their own benefit because the millions they already make just isn't enough).

Question: If you have correctly stated the problem (and I'm in no way agreeing that you have, but just assuming hypothetically for the sake of argument) then answer this--why does the solution lie in government control?

Government bureaucrats are just as greedy, corrupt, and unethical as the CEO's that you are vilifying. That's where your analysis breaks down. If people are truly that corrupt, then the less power they have to screw me over the better, and government bureaucrats always have the power to hurt me in more ways (jail, fines, confiscation) than any corporate CEO does.

Never said it was only government control. THe govenment can help but CEO's can help. Of course, the biggest way of helping is changing the attitude of those who demand the biggest profit at the expense of Americans and America. Is it really that bad that a corporation only makes $3.75 billion in pofits instead of $4 billion? The extra money can go to workers so the CAN afford to buy their company's stock or spend it in the economy which will create more jobs and give more people a chance to buy your services and/or stock. I guess what I am saying is tone down the personal greed for the bettr uf the country.

(01-21-2012 12:18 PM)RobertN Wrote:  Never said it was only government control. THe govenment can help but CEO's can help. Of course, the biggest way of helping is changing the attitude of those who demand the biggest profit at the expense of Americans and America. Is it really that bad that a corporation only makes $3.75 billion in pofits instead of $4 billion? The extra money can go to workers so the CAN afford to buy their company's stock or spend it in the economy which will create more jobs and give more people a chance to buy your services and/or stock. I guess what I am saying is tone down the personal greed for the bettr uf the country.

So, again proceeding for the sake of argument on the basis that you are correct, without actually agreeing to the truth of your assumption, answer this.

How do you bring that about?

Do you have some sort of government/regulatory intervention? In that case you are talking government control.

If not that, then how?

(01-21-2012 12:25 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-21-2012 12:18 PM)RobertN Wrote:  Never said it was only government control. THe govenment can help but CEO's can help. Of course, the biggest way of helping is changing the attitude of those who demand the biggest profit at the expense of Americans and America. Is it really that bad that a corporation only makes $3.75 billion in pofits instead of $4 billion? The extra money can go to workers so the CAN afford to buy their company's stock or spend it in the economy which will create more jobs and give more people a chance to buy your services and/or stock. I guess what I am saying is tone down the personal greed for the bettr uf the country.

So, again proceeding for the sake of argument on the basis that you are correct, without actually agreeing to the truth of your assumption, answer this.

How do you bring that about?

Do you have some sort of government/regulatory intervention? In that case you are talking government control.

If not that, then how?

I guess I wasn't clear. It has to take some government in keeping the minimum wage relevent for one thing(I also have no problems with it decreasing if the economy changes-ie it doesn't always have to just continue up. I don't expect it to change every year but maybe visit it every few years). CEO's and others need to cut back on the personal greed. It isn't just one thing

Btw, you don't have to say all that crap in every post. We KNOW you don't agree with me because everyone knows you don't.

(01-21-2012 12:36 PM)RobertN Wrote:  I guess I wasn't clear. It has to take some government in keeping the minimum wage relevent for one thing(I also have no problems with it decreasing if the economy changes-ie it doesn't always have to just continue up. I don't expect it to change every year but maybe visit it every few years). CEO's and others need to cut back on the personal greed. It isn't just one thing

So, let me get this straight. I say government is just as corrupt as private industry. You say you weren't talking about a government solution. I ask how you would proceed. And you give me a government solution. Got it. So, let's move on.

As far as the other idea, cutting back on greed, how do you accomplish that?

This is where the left's argument breaks down. The problem with greedy capitalists is not that they're capitalists, it's that they're greedy. And greed is a universal human condition. Capitalists aren't the only people who are greedy. Communists are greedy, socialists are greedy, fascists are greedy, government bureaucrats are greedy, the 99-percenters are incredibly greedy. And greedy capitalists do less harm than any of the others.

Capitalism has actually proved to be a better model to deal with greed than any other. That's one of its major strengths. Are you going to tell me that there was a more equal distribution of income in the communist USSR or China than in the capitalist US? The left likes to lament the fact that income distribution in the US has become more unequal in the last 50 years, but they fail to mention that the US has become less--not more--capitalistic, and more--not less--socialistic during that time frame. Doesn't look to me like becoming more socialistic is the solution.

How have societies dealt with greed historically? For most of western civilization, it was the influence of the church and religious teachings. But we're getting away from that now.

So, the question has been narrowed. How do you reduce greed substantially, or get rid of it altogether? And if you can't do that, how best to deal with it?

(01-21-2012 12:51 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-21-2012 12:36 PM)RobertN Wrote:  I guess I wasn't clear. It has to take some government in keeping the minimum wage relevent for one thing(I also have no problems with it decreasing if the economy changes-ie it doesn't always have to just continue up. I don't expect it to change every year but maybe visit it every few years). CEO's and others need to cut back on the personal greed. It isn't just one thing

So, let me get this straight. I say government is just as corrupt as private industry. You say you weren't talking about a government solution. I ask how you would proceed. And you give me a government solution. Got it. So, let's move on.

As far as the other idea, cutting back on greed, how do you accomplish that?

This is where the left's argument breaks down. The problem with greedy capitalists is not that they're capitalists, it's that they're greedy. And greed is a universal human condition. Capitalists aren't the only people who are greedy. Communists are greedy, socialists are greedy, fascists are greedy, government bureaucrats are greedy, the 99-percenters are incredibly greedy. And greedy capitalists do less harm than any of the others.

Capitalism has actually proved to be a better model to deal with greed than any other. That's one of its major strengths. Are you going to tell me that there was a more equal distribution of income in the communist USSR or China than in the capitalist US? The left likes to lament the fact that income distribution in the US has become more unequal in the last 50 years, but they fail to mention that the US has become less--not more--capitalistic, and more--not less--socialistic during that time frame. Doesn't look to me like becoming more socialistic is the solution.

How have societies dealt with greed historically? For most of western civilization, it was the influence of the church and religious teachings. But we're getting away from that now.

So, the question has been narrowed. How do you reduce greed substantially, or get rid of it altogether? And if you can't do that, how best to deal with it?

I said not a government only solution, just part of it.

(01-21-2012 07:13 PM)RobertN Wrote:  I said not a government only solution, just part of it.

So how do you fix it?

(01-21-2012 07:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-21-2012 07:13 PM)RobertN Wrote:  I said not a government only solution, just part of it.

So how do you fix it?

Fix you. Read that how you wish.

(01-21-2012 07:29 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(01-21-2012 07:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-21-2012 07:13 PM)RobertN Wrote:  I said not a government only solution, just part of it.

So how do you fix it?

Fix you. Read that how you wish.

So how would you do that?

(01-21-2012 07:30 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-21-2012 07:29 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(01-21-2012 07:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-21-2012 07:13 PM)RobertN Wrote:  I said not a government only solution, just part of it.

So how do you fix it?

Fix you. Read that how you wish.

So how would you do that?

Teaching you that greed isn't good for starters. THen I would like to see you "fixed". THough I suspect it might be too late for that to do much good. :(

So you would happily give up autos, food, TV's, washing machines, microwaves, indoor plumbing, air travel, McDonald's, in exchange for others giving up their greed.

(01-21-2012 07:45 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(01-21-2012 07:30 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-21-2012 07:29 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(01-21-2012 07:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-21-2012 07:13 PM)RobertN Wrote:  I said not a government only solution, just part of it.

So how do you fix it?

Fix you. Read that how you wish.

So how would you do that?

Teaching you that greed isn't good for starters. THen I would like to see you "fixed". THough I suspect it might be too late for that to do much good. :(

So, you really don't have a clue.