(01-14-2012 11:11 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(01-14-2012 11:02 AM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  

(01-14-2012 10:54 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  And Clinton was the same or worse with women, but he was the greatest president of our generation, so right or wrong it gets overlooked.

So you were born in 1992 I take it?

'66.

And no, sorry...Reagan was a lousy president.

If by "lousy" you mean the best in at least the past 40 years, then I agree with you.

(01-14-2012 04:31 PM)Max Power Wrote:  Hitchens didn't decimate anything, except his liver.

LOL! Your delusions are so cute.

The first thing out of Hitchens' mouth was a lie. He said Ahmadinejad threatened to wipe Israel off the map and its people. That quote didn't mention people at all and the more accurate interpretation is that it will be "wiped from the pages of time." A state can be wiped off the map without violence BTW--the USSR being an obvious example. And the. Ayatollah who has full control over foreign policy clarified they weren't threatening violence. But don't let that get in the way of yours and Hitchens' neocon war propaganda.

(01-14-2012 05:35 PM)Max Power Wrote:  The first thing out of Hitchens' mouth was a lie. He said Ahmadinejad threatened to wipe Israel off the map and its people. That quote didn't mention people at all and the more accurate interpretation is that it will be "wiped from the pages of time." A state can be wiped off the map without violence BTW--the USSR being an obvious example. And the. Ayatollah who has full control over foreign policy clarified they weren't threatening violence. But don't let that get in the way of yours and Hitchens' neocon war propaganda.

Wow. Don't pull a muscle in that game of twister you're trying to play.

Yeah, I'm sure Imanutajob was talking about Israel going the way of the USSR. That its people would rise up and decide they didn't really want a Jewish state.

I will say I find your willingness to take the word of people who advocate people strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up innocent civilians as well as helping to make the IED's that killed American troops in Iraq fairly astounding. But then again taking the side of our enemies has long been the MO of liberals in this country.

(01-14-2012 05:35 PM)Max Power Wrote:  The first thing out of Hitchens' mouth was a lie. He said Ahmadinejad threatened to wipe Israel off the map and its people. That quote didn't mention people at all and the more accurate interpretation is that it will be "wiped from the pages of time." A state can be wiped off the map without violence BTW--the USSR being an obvious example. And the. Ayatollah who has full control over foreign policy clarified they weren't threatening violence. But don't let that get in the way of yours and Hitchens' neocon war propaganda.

Seriously? That is your defense.

(01-14-2012 05:35 PM)Max Power Wrote:  The first thing out of Hitchens' mouth was a lie. He said Ahmadinejad threatened to wipe Israel off the map and its people. That quote didn't mention people at all and the more accurate interpretation is that it will be "wiped from the pages of time." A state can be wiped off the map without violence BTW--the USSR being an obvious example. And the. Ayatollah who has full control over foreign policy clarified they weren't threatening violence. But don't let that get in the way of yours and Hitchens' neocon war propaganda.

Bet you still believe in Santa as well.

(01-14-2012 05:56 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  

(01-14-2012 05:35 PM)Max Power Wrote:  The first thing out of Hitchens' mouth was a lie. He said Ahmadinejad threatened to wipe Israel off the map and its people. That quote didn't mention people at all and the more accurate interpretation is that it will be "wiped from the pages of time." A state can be wiped off the map without violence BTW--the USSR being an obvious example. And the. Ayatollah who has full control over foreign policy clarified they weren't threatening violence. But don't let that get in the way of yours and Hitchens' neocon war propaganda.

Bet you still believe in Santa as well.

I'm astounded that you're astounded. Yes, they want Palestinians to regain control. Until the recent hardliners won election they said they would recognize Israel if it came to an agreement with the PLO. Like I said they don't want Armageddon, just Muslim (preferably Shia) control of Israel like it was for centuries before WWI. And there are many Jews living in Iran with rights; if Iran is Nazi Germany what are they waiting for??

I can't believe you take the word of the neocons who lied us into Iraq. Time Magazine and the NYT fired Kristol in particular for being a liar and having no credibility.

(01-14-2012 06:10 PM)Max Power Wrote:  I can't believe you take the word of the neocons who lied us into Iraq. Time Magazine and the NYT fired Kristol in particular for being a liar and having no credibility.

Please provide evidence of these lies.

(01-14-2012 05:48 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  

(01-14-2012 05:35 PM)Max Power Wrote:  The first thing out of Hitchens' mouth was a lie. He said Ahmadinejad threatened to wipe Israel off the map and its people. That quote didn't mention people at all and the more accurate interpretation is that it will be "wiped from the pages of time." A state can be wiped off the map without violence BTW--the USSR being an obvious example. And the. Ayatollah who has full control over foreign policy clarified they weren't threatening violence. But don't let that get in the way of yours and Hitchens' neocon war propaganda.

Wow. Don't pull a muscle in that game of twister you're trying to play.

Yeah, I'm sure Imanutajob was talking about Israel going the way of the USSR. That its people would rise up and decide they didn't really want a Jewish state.

I will say I find your willingness to take the word of people who advocate people strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up innocent civilians as well as helping to make the IED's that killed American troops in Iraq fairly astounding. But then again taking the side of our enemies has long been the MO of liberals in this country.

Sigh, this seems to always happen in these types of threads. "taking the side of our enemies ... liberals". Regardless, I shall say this: I am a moderate liberal and I believe Iran is a dangerous nation. We must take everything they say seriously and act to protect our interests. Israel is an interest. We must protect it. It's not a one-sided war, btw, between Muslims and Jews. But that doesn't matter because Israel is our ally, not Iran.

(01-14-2012 06:14 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  Sigh, this seems to always happen in these types of threads. "taking the side of our enemies ... liberals".

Naturally my statement is not meant to be all encompassing, but it's true that liberals in this country have a history of supporting America's enemies. How often did we hear communism and the USSR were no real threat? "There are no soviet spies at the state department!!" Kennedy's dad was a big fan of Hitler. How quick liberals are to blame and attack Israel and side with the Palestinians. The liberal lion Ted Kennedy tried to partner with Russia and the KGB to undermine both Carter and Reagan.

There's a long history liberals siding with our enemies in this country. It's not to say every liberal wants to or has. Just that there is a history of it occurring that can't be denied.

(01-14-2012 05:56 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  

(01-14-2012 05:35 PM)Max Power Wrote:  The first thing out of Hitchens' mouth was a lie. He said Ahmadinejad threatened to wipe Israel off the map and its people. That quote didn't mention people at all and the more accurate interpretation is that it will be "wiped from the pages of time." A state can be wiped off the map without violence BTW--the USSR being an obvious example. And the. Ayatollah who has full control over foreign policy clarified they weren't threatening violence. But don't let that get in the way of yours and Hitchens' neocon war propaganda.

Bet you still believe in Santa as well.

Hey. Hey. HEY! Don't diss the Claus.

(01-14-2012 06:13 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  

(01-14-2012 06:10 PM)Max Power Wrote:  I can't believe you take the word of the neocons who lied us into Iraq. Time Magazine and the NYT fired Kristol in particular for being a liar and having no credibility.

Please provide evidence of these lies.

Are you kidding? Neocons are Straussians who believe in th "noble lie"--that they can lie to achieve what they believe to be noble ends and that the masses are better off not knowing the truth. Glenn Greenwald of Salon had a nice piece on it and quotes from Irving and Bill Kristol tying it together. Also a link to another Greenwald entry listing dozens of false statements from Kristol alone. And of course a Senate committee found Israeli intel provided to us to be false. And Curveball, who the neocons in the Bush administration pointed to, had no credibility as the Germans warned us. You have so much to learn. Start here with Greenwald and Strauss--

http://bernielatham.com/2009/07/28/bill-...servatism/

(01-14-2012 06:33 PM)Max Power Wrote:  

(01-14-2012 06:13 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  

(01-14-2012 06:10 PM)Max Power Wrote:  I can't believe you take the word of the neocons who lied us into Iraq. Time Magazine and the NYT fired Kristol in particular for being a liar and having no credibility.

Please provide evidence of these lies.

Are you kidding? Neocons are Straussians who believe in th "noble lie"--that they can lie to achieve what they believe to be noble ends and that the masses are better off not knowing the truth. Glenn Greenwald of Salon had a nice piece on it and quotes from Irving and Bill Kristol tying it together. Also a link to another Greenwald entry listing dozens of false statements from Kristol alone. And of course a Senate committee found Israeli intel provided to us to be false. And Curveball, who the neocons in the Bush administration pointed to, had no credibility as the Germans warned us. You have so much to learn. Start here with Greenwald and Strauss--

http://bernielatham.com/2009/07/28/bill-...servatism/

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear given my audience.

I would like you to prove that the case that was made for us to go to Iraq were lies. Please keep in mind that something turning out not to be true does not make it a lie. For something to be a lie you have to show that the person making the claim knows for a fact that it is false.

Now, again I'll ask, please provide evidence that those that made the decision for us to go to Iraq were lying. I'll remind you Bill Kristol did not hold elected office and had no say in us going into Iraq.

(01-14-2012 06:28 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  

(01-14-2012 06:14 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  Sigh, this seems to always happen in these types of threads. "taking the side of our enemies ... liberals".

Naturally my statement is not meant to be all encompassing, but it's true that liberals in this country have a history of supporting America's enemies. How often did we hear communism and the USSR were no real threat? "There are no soviet spies at the state department!!" Kennedy's dad was a big fan of Hitler. How quick liberals are to blame and attack Israel and side with the Palestinians. The liberal lion Ted Kennedy tried to partner with Russia and the KGB to undermine both Carter and Reagan.

There's a long history liberals siding with our enemies in this country. It's not to say every liberal wants to or has. Just that there is a history of it occurring that can't be denied.

We're not at war and we don't have an alliance with Israel, who most reasonable people would recognize as an oppressor of the Palestinians. You confuse objection to the reliable hawkish right's drumbeat for war with treason. We needed more people to speak out against the misadventure in Vietnam, not less. We needed more people to speak up and at least ask questions during your Iraq drumbeat. The more
things change the more they stay the same.

(01-14-2012 06:47 PM)Max Power Wrote:  

(01-14-2012 06:28 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  

(01-14-2012 06:14 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  Sigh, this seems to always happen in these types of threads. "taking the side of our enemies ... liberals".

Naturally my statement is not meant to be all encompassing, but it's true that liberals in this country have a history of supporting America's enemies. How often did we hear communism and the USSR were no real threat? "There are no soviet spies at the state department!!" Kennedy's dad was a big fan of Hitler. How quick liberals are to blame and attack Israel and side with the Palestinians. The liberal lion Ted Kennedy tried to partner with Russia and the KGB to undermine both Carter and Reagan.

There's a long history liberals siding with our enemies in this country. It's not to say every liberal wants to or has. Just that there is a history of it occurring that can't be denied.

We're not at war and we don't have an alliance with Israel, who most reasonable people would recognize as an oppressor of the Palestinians. You confuse objection to the reliable hawkish right's drumbeat for war with treason. We needed more people to speak out against the misadventure in Vietnam, not less. We needed more people to speak up and at least ask questions during your Iraq drumbeat. The more
things change the more they stay the same.

Hamas has victimized the people of Palestine and like so many other elitist bodies, they represent only a militant fraction of the Palestinian population.

BIBLICAL/HISTORICAL Israel shows that the Jews, Jebusites, and the Philistines/Palestinians co-existed in a territory that encompasses FAR MORE than the redrawn borders suggest. Our hand must be extracted from the negotiating table so we can allow Israel to carry out what it wants to accomplish.

(01-14-2012 06:47 PM)Max Power Wrote:  You confuse objection to the reliable hawkish right's drumbeat for war with treason.

I didn't say treason. Ted Kennedy committed treason and should have been prosecuted for it. Your tendency to side with our enemies isn't treasonous as your doing so doesn't directly undermine this country. You lack a certain importance as a person to qualify as a true traitor by the legal definition.

Quote:We needed more people to speak out against the misadventure in Vietnam, not less.

Speaking out is one thing. But your immediate instinct is to take the word of our enemies over those of our leaders. Except Obama of course, and that's because he thinks like you do. That is your worldview. You don't view America as a force for good in this world, you view it as an oppressor and its motives nefarious. It stems from your worldview.

Quote:We needed more people to speak up and at least ask questions during your Iraq drumbeat. The more
things change the more they stay the same.

My drumbeat? Sorry, I don't think you're aware of how this country works. See my opinion on Iraq, or that of Bill Kristol's, has no constitutional authority to take our country to war.

(01-14-2012 06:37 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  

(01-14-2012 06:33 PM)Max Power Wrote:  

(01-14-2012 06:13 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  

(01-14-2012 06:10 PM)Max Power Wrote:  I can't believe you take the word of the neocons who lied us into Iraq. Time Magazine and the NYT fired Kristol in particular for being a liar and having no credibility.

Please provide evidence of these lies.

Are you kidding? Neocons are Straussians who believe in th "noble lie"--that they can lie to achieve what they believe to be noble ends and that the masses are better off not knowing the truth. Glenn Greenwald of Salon had a nice piece on it and quotes from Irving and Bill Kristol tying it together. Also a link to another Greenwald entry listing dozens of false statements from Kristol alone. And of course a Senate committee found Israeli intel provided to us to be false. And Curveball, who the neocons in the Bush administration pointed to, had no credibility as the Germans warned us. You have so much to learn. Start here with Greenwald and Strauss--

http://bernielatham.com/2009/07/28/bill-...servatism/

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear given my audience.

I would like you to prove that the case that was made for us to go to Iraq were lies. Please keep in mind that something turning out not to be true does not make it a lie. For something to be a lie you have to show that the person making the claim knows for a fact that it is false.

Now, again I'll ask, please provide evidence that those that made the decision for us to go to Iraq were lying. I'll remind you Bill Kristol did not hold elected office and had no say in us going into Iraq.

Bill Kristol didn't need elective office. The war started because the resolution to use force passed Congress, and it passed Congress because public opinion was shaped with LIES about Saddam's WMDs, his ties to al Qaeda etc. It passed because all of these "experts" were ginning up fear and exploiting 9/11. These were falsehoods they have shown no credible source for having deceived them, considering like I said Curveball had no credibility. You can give them a free pass and say they're all honest mistakes but it's completely ridiculous considering the long list of falsehoods starting with that link I gave you.

Either they're liars or delusional or were given bad information and are not enough interested in clearing their name to explain who, how and why. Happy?

(01-14-2012 06:54 PM)TampaKnight Wrote:  

(01-14-2012 06:47 PM)Max Power Wrote:  

(01-14-2012 06:28 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  

(01-14-2012 06:14 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  Sigh, this seems to always happen in these types of threads. "taking the side of our enemies ... liberals".

Naturally my statement is not meant to be all encompassing, but it's true that liberals in this country have a history of supporting America's enemies. How often did we hear communism and the USSR were no real threat? "There are no soviet spies at the state department!!" Kennedy's dad was a big fan of Hitler. How quick liberals are to blame and attack Israel and side with the Palestinians. The liberal lion Ted Kennedy tried to partner with Russia and the KGB to undermine both Carter and Reagan.

There's a long history liberals siding with our enemies in this country. It's not to say every liberal wants to or has. Just that there is a history of it occurring that can't be denied.

We're not at war and we don't have an alliance with Israel, who most reasonable people would recognize as an oppressor of the Palestinians. You confuse objection to the reliable hawkish right's drumbeat for war with treason. We needed more people to speak out against the misadventure in Vietnam, not less. We needed more people to speak up and at least ask questions during your Iraq drumbeat. The more
things change the more they stay the same.

Hamas has victimized the people of Palestine and like so many other elitist bodies, they represent only a militant fraction of the Palestinian population.

BIBLICAL/HISTORICAL Israel shows that the Jews, Jebusites, and the Philistines/Palestinians co-existed in a territory that encompasses FAR MORE than the redrawn borders suggest. Our hand must be extracted from the negotiating table so we can allow Israel to carry out what it wants to accomplish.

I don't give a #### about what happened thousands of years ago. Cherokee nation was much larger too, so are you ready to pack up and leave? And I didn't say anything in that quote about Hamas. I will say there are millions of displaced Palestinians in Gaza being starved by Israel.

I'm also constantly amazed how many good Christians can turn a blind eye to suffering if the people are brown.

(01-14-2012 07:02 PM)Max Power Wrote:  Happy?

Yes. You proved my point. You have no evidence to support your claims that anyone lied to get us into Iraq. I knew you'd come through.

While I'm sure it's a surprise to you, restating that someone lied is not evidence that they lied.

See the main flaw in your assertion is that if, as you say, Bush lied to get us into Iraq, then France, Britain, Russia and the UN all had to have lied as well.

So you have a choice. Either you believe all of those lied about the danger Saddam posed, or none of them lied, since they all said the same things.

So which will it be?