http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/sin...ory_1.html

Interesting article in the Washington Post about ACC basketball. I have noticed the decline has been on for several years. Does anybody have any ideas for the reason for the decline in ACC basketball since the last expansion in 2004? I suspect the rise of the Big East basketball over the last 5 or 6 years may have something to do with it but it does not explain why the other ACC basketball programs have suddenly collapsed.
It is interesting how the ACC basketball coaches were not listened to during the 2004 expansion phase.
Hopefully with Syracuse and Pittsburgh joining the ACC, the basketball league will become number 1 again but it is going to take more than 4 teams (Syracuse, Pittsburgh, North Carolina and Duke) to revive the league.

I think it's that the other teams used to be able to sell to recruits that they were playing UNC and Duke 4+ times a year with home games for each. Now your lucky to get 3 games a year. Usually, you only have one or the other at home.

(01-10-2012 12:53 AM)tj_2009 Wrote:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/sin...ory_1.html

Interesting article in the Washington Post about ACC basketball. I have noticed the decline has been on for several years. Does anybody have any ideas for the reason for the decline in ACC basketball since the last expansion in 2004? I suspect the rise of the Big East basketball over the last 5 or 6 years may have something to do with it but it does not explain why the other ACC basketball programs have suddenly collapsed.
It is interesting how the ACC basketball coaches were not listened to during the 2004 expansion phase.
Hopefully with Syracuse and Pittsburgh joining the ACC, the basketball league will become number 1 again but it is going to take more than 4 teams (Syracuse, Pittsburgh, North Carolina and Duke) to revive the league.

Good luck with that.

Pittsburgh will finish in the bottom 6 of Big East this year. And once Jim Beihelm is forced to resign because of the Bernie Fine sex scandal eventually, Syracuse will soon sink to Boston College level. Both are small private schools fading fast in the new century and new economy. Syracuse has already given up Football and focus on basketball only. But they just can't turn the tide. Look at last century. Once Holy Cross, Colgate. Saint Mary, Carnegie Mellon and many private schools are doing well in Rose Bowl, Sugar Bowl and Orange Bowl. Where are these schools now? ACC can't compete with Big10, SEC, Big12 and PAC12 because ACC has too many private schools.

When these two teams join ACC in 2014, they will be no better than all the other 10 ACC teams, much less Duke and UNC.

(01-10-2012 11:46 AM)ArQ Wrote:  Good luck with that.

Pittsburgh will finish in the bottom 6 of Big East this year. And once Jim Beihelm is forced to resign because of the sex scandal next year, Syracuse will soon sink to Boston College level. When these two teams join ACC in 2014, they will be no better than all the other 12 ACC teams.

Oh no! Pitt might have ONE bad year?! Jamie Dixon is a good coach, and he's only 46. Pitt will be good for a long time.

Syracuse was great before Boeheim took over. We'll be great when he leaves. Hopkins is a good coach (he handles much of the recruiting), he'll have a lot of success at SU.

Syracuse is 5th in all time wins. Syracuse has the Melo Center, one of the greatest facilities in the country. Syracuse has the Carrier Dome, one of the hardest places for opponents to visit in the country.

It's going to take much more than an assistant coach, maybe, diddling a kid, to bring down Syracuse.

To determine why ACC basketball has declined over the past 2 decades, consider the head BB coaches then & now:

University * Coach in heyday * Coaching now
======= ============== ==============
Clemson * Cliff Ellis * Brad Brownell
Florida State * Pat Kennedy * Leonard Hamilton
Maryland * Gary Williams * Mark Turgeon
NC State * Jim Valvano * Mark Gottfried
Wake Forest * Dave Odom * Jeff Bzdelik
Georgia Tech * Bobby Cremins * Brian Gregory
Virginia * Terry Holland * Tony Bennett
North Carolina * Dean Smith * Roy Williams
Duke * Mike Krzyzewski (same)

Look at this list and tell me which school has upgraded their coach? For that matter, only UNC and Duke have stayed at the same level, IMO. (NOTE: Most of those "heyday" coaches were contemporaries... now THAT was a basketball conference!

PART I -- COACHES
---------------------------
Noteworthy ACC Basketball Coaches in the 80s-90's

Dean Smith
Coach K
Gary Williams
Bobby Cremins
Terry Holland
Dave Odom

Noteworthy ACC Basketball Coaches, present

Coach K
Roy Williams

Quality of head coaches has dwindled significantly.

NC State shot itself in not just one foot, but both feet by having Sidney Lowe on the sidelines.

Georgia Tech contributed to the deterioration of Swagger's overall health and well-being by having **** ****** on the sidelines.

Even Carolina shot itself in the pinkie toe by hiring Matt Doherty.

I can't even describe what UVA has attempted to do before hiring the guy they have now.

---

PART II - Explosion of Television options

This has led to more kids having more options because more schools are going to get on TV. Back 'in the day', in order to get on TV in the ACC, it was Jefferson Pilot, baby. Now, darn near every game is getting TV exposure.

Basically, parity has landed in a big way because players can play at any school and get TV time. Couldn't do that back in the 80s and 90s, unless you were playing in the ACC, Big East or Big Ten.

I'm also sure that the explosion of AAU has had something to do with the decline of the ACC talent level and the rise of talent in the urban universities (for example, no one ever heard of Xavier in the 90s).

(01-10-2012 04:32 PM)ecuacc4ever Wrote:  I'm also sure that the explosion of AAU has had something to do with the decline of the ACC talent level and the rise of talent in the urban universities (for example, no one ever heard of Xavier in the 90s).

ACC AAU Schools:
Duke (1938)
Georgia Tech (2010)
Maryland (1969)
North Carolina (1922)
Pitt (1974)
Virginia (1904)


Joined AAU since 1980:
Arizona (1985)
Brandeis (1985)
Buffalo (1989)
Carnegie Mellon (1982)
UC-Davis (1996)
UC-Irvine (1996)
UC-SB (1995)
UC-SD (1992)
Emory (1995)
Florida (1985)
Georgia Tech (2010)
Rice (1985)
Rutgers (1989)
Stony Brook (2001)
Texas A&M (2001)

Not that 'AAU' -- the 'AAU' basketball leagues that have sprung up all over America, placing itself in between high schools and colleges.

http://www.aauboysbasketball.org/

(01-10-2012 04:58 PM)ecuacc4ever Wrote:  Not that 'AAU' -- the 'AAU' basketball leagues that have sprung up all over America, placing itself in between high schools and colleges.

http://www.aauboysbasketball.org/

ohhhhhhhhhhhhh

I was going thinking, "wow, not a ton of bball power in that list..."

Yeah, them. One of the reasons for the Terps' decline was that reportedly Gary Williams didn't want to deal with those AAU "handlers". Same, reportedly, goes for Roy Williams.

(01-10-2012 04:07 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  To determine why ACC basketball has declined over the past 2 decades, consider the head BB coaches then & now:

University * Coach in heyday * Coaching now
======= ============== ==============
Clemson * Cliff Ellis * Brad Brownell
Florida State * Pat Kennedy * Leonard Hamilton
Maryland * Gary Williams * Mark Turgeon
NC State * Jim Valvano * Mark Gottfried
Wake Forest * Dave Odom * Jeff Bzdelik
Georgia Tech * Bobby Cremins * Brian Gregory
Virginia * Terry Holland * Tony Bennett
North Carolina * Dean Smith * Roy Williams
Duke * Mike Krzyzewski (same)

Look at this list and tell me which school has upgraded their coach? For that matter, only UNC and Duke have stayed at the same level, IMO. (NOTE: Most of those "heyday" coaches were contemporaries... now THAT was a basketball conference!

I have to agree that Basketball coaches make a big difference in the quality of the basketball team. That is probably why the Big East became so strong recently, because of good coaches:
Syracuse = Jim Boeheim
Pittsburgh = Jamie Dixon
UConn = Jim Calhoun
Louisville = Rich Pitino
WVU = Bobby Huggins
Villanova = Jay Wright

Not sure how the ACC is going to turn it around. I suppose they may be able to get lucky with some of the existing coaches and hope the new TV deals for the ACC teams help with new facilities.

(01-10-2012 11:46 AM)ArQ Wrote:  

(01-10-2012 12:53 AM)tj_2009 Wrote:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/sin...ory_1.html

Interesting article in the Washington Post about ACC basketball. I have noticed the decline has been on for several years. Does anybody have any ideas for the reason for the decline in ACC basketball since the last expansion in 2004? I suspect the rise of the Big East basketball over the last 5 or 6 years may have something to do with it but it does not explain why the other ACC basketball programs have suddenly collapsed.
It is interesting how the ACC basketball coaches were not listened to during the 2004 expansion phase.
Hopefully with Syracuse and Pittsburgh joining the ACC, the basketball league will become number 1 again but it is going to take more than 4 teams (Syracuse, Pittsburgh, North Carolina and Duke) to revive the league.

Good luck with that.

Pittsburgh will finish in the bottom 6 of Big East this year. And once Jim Beihelm is forced to resign because of the Bernie Fine sex scandal eventually, Syracuse will soon sink to Boston College level. Both are small private schools fading fast in the new century and new economy. Syracuse has already given up Football and focus on basketball only. But they just can't turn the tide. Look at last century. Once Holy Cross, Colgate. Saint Mary, Carnegie Mellon and many private schools are doing well in Rose Bowl, Sugar Bowl and Orange Bowl. Where are these schools now? ACC can't compete with Big10, SEC, Big12 and PAC12 because ACC has too many private schools.

When these two teams join ACC in 2014, they will be no better than all the other 10 ACC teams, much less Duke and UNC.

What exactly are you talking about? Its amazing how people say the ACC sucks and the next sentence they are saying Pitt and Cuse can't and won't compete. What is it?

(01-10-2012 11:55 PM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  

(01-10-2012 11:46 AM)ArQ Wrote:  

(01-10-2012 12:53 AM)tj_2009 Wrote:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/sin...ory_1.html

Interesting article in the Washington Post about ACC basketball. I have noticed the decline has been on for several years. Does anybody have any ideas for the reason for the decline in ACC basketball since the last expansion in 2004? I suspect the rise of the Big East basketball over the last 5 or 6 years may have something to do with it but it does not explain why the other ACC basketball programs have suddenly collapsed.
It is interesting how the ACC basketball coaches were not listened to during the 2004 expansion phase.
Hopefully with Syracuse and Pittsburgh joining the ACC, the basketball league will become number 1 again but it is going to take more than 4 teams (Syracuse, Pittsburgh, North Carolina and Duke) to revive the league.

Good luck with that.

Pittsburgh will finish in the bottom 6 of Big East this year. And once Jim Beihelm is forced to resign because of the Bernie Fine sex scandal eventually, Syracuse will soon sink to Boston College level. Both are small private schools fading fast in the new century and new economy. Syracuse has already given up Football and focus on basketball only. But they just can't turn the tide. Look at last century. Once Holy Cross, Colgate. Saint Mary, Carnegie Mellon and many private schools are doing well in Rose Bowl, Sugar Bowl and Orange Bowl. Where are these schools now? ACC can't compete with Big10, SEC, Big12 and PAC12 because ACC has too many private schools.

When these two teams join ACC in 2014, they will be no better than all the other 10 ACC teams, much less Duke and UNC.

What exactly are you talking about? Its amazing how people say the ACC sucks and the next sentence they are saying Pitt and Cuse can't and won't compete. What is it?

Delusion. Someone will win and someone will lose. Syracuse and Pitt may not save the ACC but they will add depth and push someone else up, if nothing else. I think Syracuse and Pitt will hold their own, though.

(01-10-2012 11:46 AM)ArQ Wrote:  

(01-10-2012 12:53 AM)tj_2009 Wrote:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/sin...ory_1.html

Interesting article in the Washington Post about ACC basketball. I have noticed the decline has been on for several years. Does anybody have any ideas for the reason for the decline in ACC basketball since the last expansion in 2004? I suspect the rise of the Big East basketball over the last 5 or 6 years may have something to do with it but it does not explain why the other ACC basketball programs have suddenly collapsed.
It is interesting how the ACC basketball coaches were not listened to during the 2004 expansion phase.
Hopefully with Syracuse and Pittsburgh joining the ACC, the basketball league will become number 1 again but it is going to take more than 4 teams (Syracuse, Pittsburgh, North Carolina and Duke) to revive the league.

Good luck with that.

Pittsburgh will finish in the bottom 6 of Big East this year. And once Jim Beihelm is forced to resign because of the Bernie Fine sex scandal eventually, Syracuse will soon sink to Boston College level. Both are small private schools fading fast in the new century and new economy. Syracuse has already given up Football and focus on basketball only. But they just can't turn the tide. Look at last century. Once Holy Cross, Colgate. Saint Mary, Carnegie Mellon and many private schools are doing well in Rose Bowl, Sugar Bowl and Orange Bowl. Where are these schools now? ACC can't compete with Big10, SEC, Big12 and PAC12 because ACC has too many private schools.

When these two teams join ACC in 2014, they will be no better than all the other 10 ACC teams, much less Duke and UNC.

I have no doubt Syracuse and Pittsburgh will be successful in the ACC. In fact I think Syracuse will be one of the top teams with North Carolina and Duke on a year over year basis. Even when Jim Boeheim retires, there is an assistant coach (Mike Hopkins) who is in place who has already been chosen to succeed Jim Boeheim. Hopkins is already heavily involved in recruiting and many other aspects of coaching that I have no doubt he will be successful.

(01-10-2012 11:46 AM)ArQ Wrote:  Good luck with that.

Pittsburgh will finish in the bottom 6 of Big East this year. And once Jim Beihelm is forced to resign because of the Bernie Fine sex scandal eventually, Syracuse will soon sink to Boston College level. Both are small private schools fading fast in the new century and new economy. Syracuse has already given up Football and focus on basketball only. But they just can't turn the tide. Look at last century. Once Holy Cross, Colgate. Saint Mary, Carnegie Mellon and many private schools are doing well in Rose Bowl, Sugar Bowl and Orange Bowl. Where are these schools now? ACC can't compete with Big10, SEC, Big12 and PAC12 because ACC has too many private schools.

When these two teams join ACC in 2014, they will be no better than all the other 10 ACC teams, much less Duke and UNC.

Lousyville 59, One of those private schools that used to do well but can't compete any more with those mighty, mighty public schools 90.

And since you like speculating about coaches losing their jobs, you'll probably enjoy this board.

(01-10-2012 11:46 AM)ArQ Wrote:  

(01-10-2012 12:53 AM)tj_2009 Wrote:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/sin...ory_1.html

Interesting article in the Washington Post about ACC basketball. I have noticed the decline has been on for several years. Does anybody have any ideas for the reason for the decline in ACC basketball since the last expansion in 2004? I suspect the rise of the Big East basketball over the last 5 or 6 years may have something to do with it but it does not explain why the other ACC basketball programs have suddenly collapsed.
It is interesting how the ACC basketball coaches were not listened to during the 2004 expansion phase.
Hopefully with Syracuse and Pittsburgh joining the ACC, the basketball league will become number 1 again but it is going to take more than 4 teams (Syracuse, Pittsburgh, North Carolina and Duke) to revive the league.

Good luck with that.

Pittsburgh will finish in the bottom 6 of Big East this year. And once Jim Beihelm is forced to resign because of the Bernie Fine sex scandal eventually, Syracuse will soon sink to Boston College level. Both are small private schools fading fast in the new century and new economy. Syracuse has already given up Football and focus on basketball only. But they just can't turn the tide. Look at last century. Once Holy Cross, Colgate. Saint Mary, Carnegie Mellon and many private schools are doing well in Rose Bowl, Sugar Bowl and Orange Bowl. Where are these schools now? ACC can't compete with Big10, SEC, Big12 and PAC12 because ACC has too many private schools.

When these two teams join ACC in 2014, they will be no better than all the other 10 ACC teams, much less Duke and UNC.

Mike Hopkins + Carrier Dome = No drop off after Boeheim who has not exactly been an elite post-season coach.

NCSU is on the way up. They have what appears to be a very good coach, a heck of good 2012 recruiting class, and even when they have been bad, attendance has always been good.