(12-19-2011 09:08 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 09:04 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 08:58 AM)XLance Wrote:  From what I have heard, it seems as if the Notre Dame alumni are not as adamant about "football independence" as the non-alumni "fans".
Could be civil war.......

Then, you must never read Rock's House at ND Nation, probably the most alumni centric website around.

If anything, the alumni are even more rabid about independence than the non-alumni fans.

I read Rock's House quite a bit.
There are quite a large number of non-alumni posters.

Ask the alumni who run the site and the ones who post there what they think of conference affiliation.

(12-19-2011 08:53 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Notre Dame is not like Syracuse, Ohio State, etc...

Most of ND's fans are not living in Indiana, but rather are spread out all over the country. Your premise of "away from Indiana" is a false one.

ND is currently ranked as the 4th most popular team in the country, with ND being the second most popular school in New York City.


"Here’s one of those cliches that turns out to be valid: Notre Dame has a highly nationalized fan base. Its best markets — by the total number of fans, not market share — are New York, Chicago and Boston, each of which rank ahead of its native market of South Bend. It also has decent numbers of fans in markets as far afield as Los Angeles and Washington.

It’s no wonder, then, that the school has been reluctant to join a conference, which could limit its national exposure."




http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09...ent-chaos/

Terry, wouldn't a spot in the ACC give ND exposure up & down the East Coast and along with their obvious presence in the Midwest at home & selected national rivals like USC & Stanford with the rest of their schedule give them the national exposure they want?

I realize that it's a bigger issue for Notre Dame. but if forced to choose a conference, that would seem to offer them the best of both worlds.

(12-19-2011 09:09 AM)OneSockUp Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 08:53 AM)TerryD Wrote:  If ND starts winning again, all of this "shrinking fanbase" stuff will go away and people will be talking about how much they dislike all the ND "bandwagon fans". I have seen this stuff before, in 1964 and in 1985.

When Alabama fired Mike Shula every blog, article, and talking head was shouting that Alabama's glory days were over and that it was no longer an elite school; that its fans' expectations were going to keep any elite coaches away; that they had to be content contending for the SEC West while only occasionally fielding a nationally competitive team.

We all see what happened there.

The same will happen at Notre Dame. The impending probation at Ohio $tate might be all the Irish need . . ..

I remember all the "Alabama is dead" talk. I heard the same about Texas before Mack Brown got there and about Oklahoma in the years between the Barry Switzer and Bob Stoops regimes.

Anyone remember John Blake?

Ohio State under John Cooper was not the same as OSU under Jim Tressel.

The old, traditional schools all have peaks and valleys, periods when their teams fortunes decline and then recover.

(12-19-2011 09:34 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 08:53 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Notre Dame is not like Syracuse, Ohio State, etc...

Most of ND's fans are not living in Indiana, but rather are spread out all over the country. Your premise of "away from Indiana" is a false one.

ND is currently ranked as the 4th most popular team in the country, with ND being the second most popular school in New York City.


"Here’s one of those cliches that turns out to be valid: Notre Dame has a highly nationalized fan base. Its best markets — by the total number of fans, not market share — are New York, Chicago and Boston, each of which rank ahead of its native market of South Bend. It also has decent numbers of fans in markets as far afield as Los Angeles and Washington.

It’s no wonder, then, that the school has been reluctant to join a conference, which could limit its national exposure."




http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09...ent-chaos/

Terry, wouldn't a spot in the ACC give ND exposure up & down the East Coast and along with their obvious presence in the Midwest at home & selected national rivals like USC & Stanford with the rest of their schedule give them the national exposure they want?

I realize that it's a bigger issue for Notre Dame. but if forced to choose a conference, that would seem to offer them the best of both worlds.

Yes, I have written on this forum my opinion that IF Notre Dame HAD to join a conference, I think that the Irish would pick the ACC over the Big Ten.

However, it would be a very reluctant, last ditch, "the end of the world" thing for ND. ND would not be a happy member of a football conference.

(12-19-2011 09:41 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 09:34 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 08:53 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Notre Dame is not like Syracuse, Ohio State, etc...

Most of ND's fans are not living in Indiana, but rather are spread out all over the country. Your premise of "away from Indiana" is a false one.

ND is currently ranked as the 4th most popular team in the country, with ND being the second most popular school in New York City.


"Here’s one of those cliches that turns out to be valid: Notre Dame has a highly nationalized fan base. Its best markets — by the total number of fans, not market share — are New York, Chicago and Boston, each of which rank ahead of its native market of South Bend. It also has decent numbers of fans in markets as far afield as Los Angeles and Washington.

It’s no wonder, then, that the school has been reluctant to join a conference, which could limit its national exposure."




http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09...ent-chaos/

Terry, wouldn't a spot in the ACC give ND exposure up & down the East Coast and along with their obvious presence in the Midwest at home & selected national rivals like USC & Stanford with the rest of their schedule give them the national exposure they want?

I realize that it's a bigger issue for Notre Dame. but if forced to choose a conference, that would seem to offer them the best of both worlds.

Yes, I have written on this forum my opinion that IF Notre Dame HAD to join a conference, I think that the Irish would pick the ACC over the Big Ten.

However, it would be a very reluctant, last ditch, "the end of the world" thing for ND. ND would not be a happy member of a football conference.

I remember when Notre Dame didn't play in postseason bowls. Now everything seems to ride on hos their access to postseason bowls might be affected. Things change.

(12-18-2011 06:53 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-18-2011 06:19 PM)Big Frog II Wrote:  It doesn't matter how you got in as long as you get in.

ND still doesn't realize how irrelevant they have become by remaining independent. We will see if they join a conference in the next few years or become even more irrelevant. Their TV ratings on NBC have bordered on horrible. I can't imagine NBC giving them such a great contract in the future especially since their guardian Ebersole is gone.

NBC will renew or someone else will sign the Irish. ND will remain independent for football.

These articles and posts always are written and have been written over the years but ND remains a football independent.

Agreed.....and ND football will become increasingly less relevant. The American corporate graveyard is littered with business models that refused to change with the landscape...and ND is quickly becoming the XEROX of college football.

(12-19-2011 09:04 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 08:58 AM)XLance Wrote:  From what I have heard, it seems as if the Notre Dame alumni are not as adamant about "football independence" as the non-alumni "fans".
Could be civil war.......

Then, you must never read Rock's House at ND Nation, probably the most alumni centric website around.

If anything, the alumni are even more rabid about independence than the non-alumni fans.

How bad would things have to suck for all the rest of ND's sports before they would give ground on this? I mean just how crappy do you think the Big East would have to get before ND would seriously consider a change? Where is the tipping point?

(12-19-2011 09:09 AM)OneSockUp Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 08:53 AM)TerryD Wrote:  If ND starts winning again, all of this "shrinking fanbase" stuff will go away and people will be talking about how much they dislike all the ND "bandwagon fans". I have seen this stuff before, in 1964 and in 1985.

When Alabama fired Mike Shula every blog, article, and talking head was shouting that Alabama's glory days were over and that it was no longer an elite school; that its fans' expectations were going to keep any elite coaches away; that they had to be content contending for the SEC West while only occasionally fielding a nationally competitive team.

We all see what happened there.

The same will happen at Notre Dame. The impending probation at Ohio $tate might be all the Irish need . . ..

Agreed.

Every program, no matter how powerful it is, will go through down periods. It's inevitable. The very second that Notre Dame is halfway decent again, you won't be able to get away from them on SportsCenter and Sports Illustrated.

Charlie Weis' best game at Notre Dame was a LOSS to USC and he was able to parlay that into a book deal and getting hailed in a 60 Minutes interview as a genius. That doesn't happen at any other school. I don't even like Notre Dame, but anyone that thinks that they're "irrelevant" is fooling themselves. They're extremely relevant to the point where two conferences (Big Ten and ACC) aren't going to expand without them and another one (Big East) is basically living as a hybrid because of them. Maybe some fans don't think they deserve that power, but that doesn't mean that they don't have such power.

(12-19-2011 11:18 AM)JunkYardCard Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 09:04 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 08:58 AM)XLance Wrote:  From what I have heard, it seems as if the Notre Dame alumni are not as adamant about "football independence" as the non-alumni "fans".
Could be civil war.......

Then, you must never read Rock's House at ND Nation, probably the most alumni centric website around.

If anything, the alumni are even more rabid about independence than the non-alumni fans.

How bad would things have to suck for all the rest of ND's sports before they would give ground on this? I mean just how crappy do you think the Big East would have to get before ND would seriously consider a change? Where is the tipping point?

I used to think there was a tipping point, but I don't see it now. The Big East has lost Miami, Syracuse, BC and Pitt, which are all schools that ND actually CHOSE to play regularly in football, yet they still didn't follow them to the ACC. As a result, there's NFW that Rutgers, Louisville and/or UConn are going to be the lynchpins to ND's future. If they didn't care about BC and Pitt, they certainly aren't going to care about whoever else is left in the BE leaving for somewhere else.

The main thing that could get ND to change its stance is being systemically denied access to the national championship and top tier bowls. That *could* happen if the bowls besides the national championship game revert back to the traditional system, in which case they almost certainly would end up signing conference tie-ins to ND's detriment. Of course, you might also see ND sign directly with bowls in that situation, so they could actually be helped. We'll have to see.

(12-19-2011 11:56 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I don't even like Notre Dame, but anyone that thinks that they're "irrelevant" is fooling themselves. They're extremely relevant to the point where two conferences (Big Ten and ACC) aren't going to expand without them and another one (Big East) is basically living as a hybrid because of them.

I don't think Notre Dame is "irrelevant", but they are less relevant now than at any time since Rockne, Gipp, the Four Horseman, etc.

(12-19-2011 01:09 AM)lmckay92 Wrote:  Growing up as a young Catholic of Irish descent and attending a Catholic school called St. Joseph's (And we were the Fighting Irish), I was always the only kid who hated Notre Dame.

Well, I'm a protestant from Irish descent and I could care less for Notre Dame.

(12-19-2011 12:01 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 11:18 AM)JunkYardCard Wrote:  How bad would things have to suck for all the rest of ND's sports before they would give ground on this? I mean just how crappy do you think the Big East would have to get before ND would seriously consider a change? Where is the tipping point?

I used to think there was a tipping point, but I don't see it now. The Big East has lost Miami, Syracuse, BC and Pitt, which are all schools that ND actually CHOSE to play regularly in football, yet they still didn't follow them to the ACC. As a result, there's NFW that Rutgers, Louisville and/or UConn are going to be the lynchpins to ND's future. If they didn't care about BC and Pitt, they certainly aren't going to care about whoever else is left in the BE leaving for somewhere else.

The main thing that could get ND to change its stance is being systemically denied access to the national championship and top tier bowls. That *could* happen if the bowls besides the national championship game revert back to the traditional system, in which case they almost certainly would end up signing conference tie-ins to ND's detriment. Of course, you might also see ND sign directly with bowls in that situation, so they could actually be helped. We'll have to see.

It just seems like the circumstances for all of their other sports could get to a point where they are untenable. Basketball gets a lot of PR too, as does baseball and soccer. And having all these teams locked into a situation where they can't really compete at the top level has to count for something. Maybe they aren't even close, and it is still just about access to the mythical national championship in football though.

[/quote]

It just seems like the circumstances for all of their other sports could get to a point where they are untenable. Basketball gets a lot of PR too, as does baseball and soccer. And having all these teams locked into a situation where they can't really compete at the top level has to count for something. Maybe they aren't even close, and it is still just about access to the mythical national championship in football though.
[/quote]

Those sports are in the same conference as Louisville........

ND could propose this to the big 12:

Big 18, 12 football + 6 catholic hoops

west: texas, texas tech, tcu, baylor, ou, osu, ku, ksu, isu

east: cincy, lville, wvu, depaul, marquette, nd, gtown, nova, st johns


For hoops, play 16 division games with 2 cross over and rotate the tourney between nyc and dallas. Than throw in a long term nd-texas football series.

(12-19-2011 11:18 AM)JunkYardCard Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 09:04 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 08:58 AM)XLance Wrote:  From what I have heard, it seems as if the Notre Dame alumni are not as adamant about "football independence" as the non-alumni "fans".
Could be civil war.......

Then, you must never read Rock's House at ND Nation, probably the most alumni centric website around.

If anything, the alumni are even more rabid about independence than the non-alumni fans.

How bad would things have to suck for all the rest of ND's sports before they would give ground on this? I mean just how crappy do you think the Big East would have to get before ND would seriously consider a change? Where is the tipping point?

Probably when they start adding FCS teams since outside Rutgers there's no one left in the BE that was playing BE football before 2004. The BE now is just the basketball schools plus a hodge-podge of C-USA & MW teams.

(12-19-2011 12:01 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The main thing that could get ND to change its stance is being systemically denied access to the national championship and top tier bowls. That *could* happen if the bowls besides the national championship game revert back to the traditional system, in which case they almost certainly would end up signing conference tie-ins to ND's detriment. Of course, you might also see ND sign directly with bowls in that situation, so they could actually be helped. We'll have to see.

No one is talking about locking ND out of a BCS title game or a "plus one" if they install that. Either way, any team in the top 2 or 4 will qualify whether they are in a conference or not.

ND has enough market power to sign deals directly with major bowls if the bowls become "free agents". That might even be better for ND, because if the bowl selections are completely up to the marketplace, a "BCS level" bowl might want ND even if they were ranked too low to be eligible for a BCS bowl under the current rules. Example: In 1994, before the formation of the BCS and its rules about when ND was eligible to be selected, the Fiesta Bowl invited a 6-4-1 Notre Dame team to play #5 Colorado. No other 6-win team would ever have that kind of bowl available to it.

It just seems like the circumstances for all of their other sports could get to a point where they are untenable. Basketball gets a lot of PR too, as does baseball and soccer. And having all these teams locked into a situation where they can't really compete at the top level has to count for something. Maybe they aren't even close, and it is still just about access to the mythical national championship in football though.
[/quote]

Those sports are in the same conference as Louisville........


[/quote]

I know. I'm just asking how bad would the Big East have to get before ND would say "This is too much. We have no choice but to give up football independence in order to have an appropriate home for all of our other sports."? If Louisville, Rutgers and UConn all manage to find other homes, would that be enough damage?

At this point, I'm leaning toward Frank's suggestion that it isn't even possible. ND's non-revenue sports and men's basketball be damned, they will maintain football independence no matter what.