cuseroc Wrote:

TexanMark Wrote:

Kit-Cat Wrote:Jackson has a good point about schools having difficulty in drawing because of being in the North East. States with cosmopolitan cities like NYC, Boston, DC, Chicago, LA, don't support their hometown teams very well. Those regions have a lot of population but with little loyalty to the community.

The rural areas and smaller cities in the south/midwest do better in football support because they are "community based" regions where people support their local high schools and colleges. New York City for the most part doesn't care about college sports, except maybe the Big East basketball championship at Madison Square Garden.

Jackson is making a gross miscalculation on the lack of any excuse for small support because of the population in New York state. Syracuse doesn't carry NYC or even really Western NY. Syracuse is on the fringe of the Adirondack mountains, a very desolate area.

The true area of influence for Syracuse athletics contains only about 1.5 million people. Which is ironically about the population of West Virginia. Also, with Syracuse basketball one of the premier programs in the country, that draws away many potential season ticket holders from football. Let's face it, Syracuse is a second tier BCS school and the football games played in the Carrier Dome are rarely with a national championship on line.

Everyone supports WVU football because the basketball is not nationally competitive. This is the best year in WVU basketball in many years. WVU is almost always better in football.

Syracuse is a lot like Louisville in population and support for its athletic teams. Syracuse really hit the big time with the Carrier Dome, and Louisville years later with Papa John's Stadium.

Syracuse has a difficult time traveling to bowls because of a small alumni base that is mostly concentrated in the north east. WVU solid well in the Charlotte bowl with it only being a few hours away from West Virginia.....a game Mountaineer fans could drive to. And WVU has many alumni that have moved to the Carolinas and other points south making an impact.

Syracuse doesn't have a cultural impediment to drawing fans.....not like Rutgers a huge school in a highly populated state that suffers in the shadow of New York City. In fact, many would consider Syracuse as part of Western NY and the MidWest, not the east coast.

BTW, Penn State averaged 103,000 97% of capacity last year. Another 75,000 people tailgate who don't even go in to watch the games with the tickets astronomical. The support at PSU is so large they'll always sell out with another 100,000 eager to just be part of the experience.

A few points:

Syracuse is a private school named after a city--a disadvantage compared to if it was called New York State University.

Syracuse is 250 miles from NYC. Research Polls stated Syracuse is the third most followed team in NYC behinf Notre Dame and Penn State.

Syracuse's strength is undisputed market strength from Rochester to the Mohawk Valley and the Northern Tier down to Binghamton. Support drops off rapidly leaving those areas. This area is home to 2.5 to 3.0 million people.

The area in CNY is not desolate.

For being a second tier BCS school (as you say) they still make ABC national games once or twice a year.

Thank you Texas mark for clearing up that info about Syracuse. For a minute their after reading the other posters post, I was afraid that I was living in a city(Rochester) that was so close to such a desolate city as Syracuse.

But not only is Syracuse the 3rd most followed program in NYC, but its the 3rd most followed program in the Northeast. ND and Penn St are close, followed by a very distant 3rd Syracuse. BC is right behind Syracuse. Someone posted this info on the killerfrogs board about a year ago, after the clown Yune attacked Syracuse saying that noone follows them except Syracuse residents.
I think it would be safe to say that there are almost as many fans in Rochester as there are in Syracuse. There are a lot of fans in Buffalo as well. The rochester Democrat and Chronicle said once that the ratings showed that whenever Syracuse is on tv in these markets that it has the highest rating of any college fb game.

If you're in Syracuse looking to the East with Rochester there is some decent population out there.

If you're looking to the North and West.....you're moving out in into the mountains and a thinly populated area.

One indicator of support is how developed a school's radio network happens to be. Syracuse has several stations upstate, but almost nothing down state. 17 stations in total.
<a href='http://www.suathletics.com/sidebar.asp?id=163' target='_blank'>http://www.suathletics.com/sidebar.asp?id=163</a>


East Carolina's radio network is almost identical in size to the Syracuse network.....actually its larger with 24 stations.
<a href='http://www.ecupirates.com/index.php?well_id=2&url_publish_channel_id=2643' target='_blank'>http://www.ecupirates.com/index.php?well_i...channel_id=2643</a>


And if you want to see what a real state wide network looks like....check out Ohio State and its 73 stations.
<a href='http://ohiostatebuckeyes.collegesports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/radio-network.html' target='_blank'>http://ohiostatebuckeyes.collegesports.com...io-network.html</a>

pirates4life Wrote:but usf does. give me a freakin break.

ECU makes more geographic sense than Memphis, and more logical sense than adding a second Florida school in UCF to the Big East.

I think its going to take UCF a while to transform from a doormat of the MAC, into a top 25 power in CUSA. It will be years before UCF builds that 45-50k on campus stadium in the plans.

ECU already has the stadium and the fans.

Kit-Cat Wrote:

cuseroc Wrote:

TexanMark Wrote:

Kit-Cat Wrote:Jackson has a good point about schools having difficulty in drawing because of being in the North East. States with cosmopolitan cities like NYC, Boston, DC, Chicago, LA, don't support their hometown teams very well. Those regions have a lot of population but with little loyalty to the community.

The rural areas and smaller cities in the south/midwest do better in football support because they are "community based" regions where people support their local high schools and colleges. New York City for the most part doesn't care about college sports, except maybe the Big East basketball championship at Madison Square Garden.

Jackson is making a gross miscalculation on the lack of any excuse for small support because of the population in New York state. Syracuse doesn't carry NYC or even really Western NY. Syracuse is on the fringe of the Adirondack mountains, a very desolate area.

The true area of influence for Syracuse athletics contains only about 1.5 million people. Which is ironically about the population of West Virginia. Also, with Syracuse basketball one of the premier programs in the country, that draws away many potential season ticket holders from football. Let's face it, Syracuse is a second tier BCS school and the football games played in the Carrier Dome are rarely with a national championship on line.

Everyone supports WVU football because the basketball is not nationally competitive. This is the best year in WVU basketball in many years. WVU is almost always better in football.

Syracuse is a lot like Louisville in population and support for its athletic teams. Syracuse really hit the big time with the Carrier Dome, and Louisville years later with Papa John's Stadium.

Syracuse has a difficult time traveling to bowls because of a small alumni base that is mostly concentrated in the north east. WVU solid well in the Charlotte bowl with it only being a few hours away from West Virginia.....a game Mountaineer fans could drive to. And WVU has many alumni that have moved to the Carolinas and other points south making an impact.

Syracuse doesn't have a cultural impediment to drawing fans.....not like Rutgers a huge school in a highly populated state that suffers in the shadow of New York City. In fact, many would consider Syracuse as part of Western NY and the MidWest, not the east coast.

BTW, Penn State averaged 103,000 97% of capacity last year. Another 75,000 people tailgate who don't even go in to watch the games with the tickets astronomical. The support at PSU is so large they'll always sell out with another 100,000 eager to just be part of the experience.

A few points:

Syracuse is a private school named after a city--a disadvantage compared to if it was called New York State University.

Syracuse is 250 miles from NYC. Research Polls stated Syracuse is the third most followed team in NYC behinf Notre Dame and Penn State.

Syracuse's strength is undisputed market strength from Rochester to the Mohawk Valley and the Northern Tier down to Binghamton. Support drops off rapidly leaving those areas. This area is home to 2.5 to 3.0 million people.

The area in CNY is not desolate.

For being a second tier BCS school (as you say) they still make ABC national games once or twice a year.

Thank you Texas mark for clearing up that info about Syracuse. For a minute their after reading the other posters post, I was afraid that I was living in a city(Rochester) that was so close to such a desolate city as Syracuse.

But not only is Syracuse the 3rd most followed program in NYC, but its the 3rd most followed program in the Northeast. ND and Penn St are close, followed by a very distant 3rd Syracuse. BC is right behind Syracuse. Someone posted this info on the killerfrogs board about a year ago, after the clown Yune attacked Syracuse saying that noone follows them except Syracuse residents.
I think it would be safe to say that there are almost as many fans in Rochester as there are in Syracuse. There are a lot of fans in Buffalo as well. The rochester Democrat and Chronicle said once that the ratings showed that whenever Syracuse is on tv in these markets that it has the highest rating of any college fb game.

If you're in Syracuse looking to the East with Rochester there is some decent population out there.

If you're looking to the North and West.....you're moving out in into the mountains and a thinly populated area.

One indicator of support is how developed a school's radio network happens to be. Syracuse has several stations upstate, but almost nothing down state. 17 stations in total.
<a href='http://www.suathletics.com/sidebar.asp?id=163' target='_blank'>http://www.suathletics.com/sidebar.asp?id=163</a>


East Carolina's radio network is almost identical in size to the Syracuse network.....actually its larger with 24 stations.
<a href='http://www.ecupirates.com/index.php?well_id=2&url_publish_channel_id=2643' target='_blank'>http://www.ecupirates.com/index.php?well_i...channel_id=2643</a>


And if you want to see what a real state wide network looks like....check out Ohio State and its 73 stations.
<a href='http://ohiostatebuckeyes.collegesports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/radio-network.html' target='_blank'>http://ohiostatebuckeyes.collegesports.com...io-network.html</a>

KitCat; Obviously you have never been to Syracuse or Upstate NY. If you are in Syracuse and looking East, your looking at Utica, Rome and the Albany Metro area with a combined total of over 1.5 million People. If you are looking west, your looking at Rochester with a metro population over 1.1 million and Buffalo/Niagara Falls with a metro area of almost 1.2 million. On both sides of Syracuse east and west, there are literally millions of people. You did get the North right, which is very sparsely populated.

ECU may have more radio stations in its network, but Syracuse's network seems to reach more people.
Either way Syracuse is far from being in or near a desolate area.

Quote:but usf does. give me a freakin break.

Please, show me where I said USF made geographic sense.

Just because we have one geographical outlier does not mean this conference is for anyone East of the Mississippi.

Florida is the sole exception to the rule (Miami, USF). They have a tremendous recruiting advantage that no other state can compare to. USF can fill a roster on Florida talent alone and they allow a pipeline into the Sunshine state for the Northeastern schools to recruit.

Quote:and more logical sense than adding a second Florida school in UCF to the Big East.

A 2nd Florida school would allow a trip to Florida every year. They are in a much bigger city you can fly directly into, and they give USF a traveling partner/rival.

We are better geographically located than Marquette but that didnt stop you guys from adding them. We have played both WVU and Syracuse in Greenville and in Morgantown and Syracuse there werent any problems back then playing in Greenville so why would it be a problem being in the same conference.

Quote:We are better geographically located than Marquette but that didnt stop you guys from adding them.

Most of us don't anticipate being aligned with Marquette for very long.

Quote:We have played both WVU and Syracuse in Greenville and in Morgantown and Syracuse there werent any problems back then playing in Greenville so why would it be a problem being in the same conference.

Look, I don't dislike East Carolina. In fact when ECU was good, I really enjoyed the games. But the Pirates just aren't a geographic fit.

Look at the Big East papers, Temple was one of three teams under 'Consider for All Sports' while East Carolina was under the 'Dismissed' column. Why is it, you think, that ECU with all it's fanbase and football history was below the likes of Temple? I'll tell you why, geography and market (and basketball). Two things ECU doesn't have going for them. For that reason, you will never be in the Big East. I'd put money on it.

NFL, You have made your position clear that you don't want ECU in the Big East. You might be right. ECU may never get into the Big East. Just because ECU was on the dismiss list last time doesn't mean things will not be different this time around. ECU has one of the best, well respected AD's in the country. The last time around scandals were breaking out everywhere. Our former Chancellor was forced to resign. There was a power struggle between our former AD & our head football coach. On top of that, ECU was mysteriously downgraded to a tier 4 school. Now ECU has got what appears to be a very good, stable Chancellor. Our AD has all kinds of connections. Our new football coach has connections with UConn and we are back to being classified as a tier 3 school. The reason ECU was dismissed might have been more of a reflection of the University's instability than poor geography or any of the other reasons you listed. Who knows? One day I may be able to call you my Big East brother! :D

Besides Notre Dame and Penn State (which I don't see happening), ECU is the best candidate for a 9th team (FB Only) between 2006-2010.

Quote:Most of us don't anticipate being aligned with Marquette for very long.

-- Amen to that


-- as for as ECU goes....we may have little choice...if they are the only major program willing to take football only then the Pirates are it...although I do think that program as VT like potential if given BCS access


Jackson

Most people here continue to underestimate the Big East's obsession with the state of Florida.

If UCF shows even a hint of football improvement in the next five years (and how could they not), then I think UCF gets the nod over ECU and Memphis (depending on where those programs are at the time) as the 9th member.

As has been said many times, the northern BE schools would love to travel to Florida every year, alternating betwen Tampa and Orlando.

They also seem insistant on not making the same 'Miami' mistake again, by leaving one conference member all alone on an island (USF). No, ECU is not a USF travel partner. ECU is actually closer to the northeast schools than they are to Tampa.

I still contend that if the BE really wanted a 9th football-only member, they could have brought in UCF at the same time they added USF. UCF's other sports could have remained in the A-Sun until a split occured.

With all the above said, if the league decides to go to 10 or beyond, then Memphis and/or ECU are right there, certainly.

Quote:I still contend that if the BE really wanted a 9th football-only member, they could have brought in UCF at the same time they added USF.

I think you are right here, and I know the desire to add a 9th member will be greater with the 12 game schedule, but I still see the Big East holding out on a 9th member until after the split. Just my opinion of course.

Quote:The reason ECU was dismissed might have been more of a reflection of the University's instability than poor geography or any of the other reasons you listed.

Seeing a stellar basketball program, surging football program (with pretty good attendance), and good sized market school like Memphis in the Dismissed column while seeing a receding basketball program, not existent football program, huge Northeastern market school like Temple in the Recommend column leads me to believe that it is geography that hinders ECU the most.

The state of disarray ECU was in at the time obviously didn't help matters, but I don't believe it was the deciding factor. Sad to say because ECU really does have a lot of potential, but I don't believe their cons to be fixable.

Murph1 Wrote:Most people here continue to underestimate the Big East's obsession with the state of Florida.

If UCF shows even a hint of football improvement in the next five years (and how could they not), then I think UCF gets the nod over ECU and Memphis (depending on where those programs are at the time) as the 9th member.

As has been said many times, the northern BE schools would love to travel to Florida every year, alternating betwen Tampa and Orlando.

One thing to take into consideration though is the NBE football membership was decided upon by ND, Pitt, Syracuse, UConn, Rutgers, West Virginia........Lousiville, UC, USF is what they wanted.

Now in a NBE break up situation looking for a 9th member, those also casting votes will be Louisville, UC, and USF. South Florida might decide to block UCF to maintain a recruiting advantage. It has been stated UCF will only accept an all sport membership, and that might have kept them out of the Big East last time around.

East Carolina fits in the footprint being on the Eastern Seaboard. If I had to make the decision, I would select ECU football-only to balance out the schedules, and I'd do it by 2006 with the 12th game on the horizon. ECU adds a distinct recruiting territory to the Big East (the Carolinas) which is quite fertile for producing talent.

Memphis and UCF look promising, but they want all-sport memberships. Maybe sometime down the road when they have top 25 programs in football. Right now they don't add anything distinct to the Big East. You already have Florida with USF. And the Memphis is too far out side of the footprint.....Big East schools do not concentrate recruiting efforts in Mississippi. Louisville might look to Mississippi for players but the rest don't focus down there. They focus in Florida and the Eastern Seaboard.

When we make the Geography argument for ECU we are not just talking about proximity to BigEast schools. We are talking about the State of NC and the heart of the ACC. It would not only help BigEast FB teams to play in NC but also would not exactly hurt the Basketball teams. Remember a kid named Jordan grew up playing basketball a couple hours down the road from ECU and Jerry Stackhouse played a few minutes down the road.
The T.V. market argument has been blown out of the water on many occasions. ECU T.V. market is put into a small footprint that is not realistic in relation to it marketability. The whole state of N.C. is our t.v. market because of alumni distribution and the Tidewater region of VA is also part of market that is not included. With that said ESPN has had independent T.V. contracts with two schools in its history. The first Notre Dame, the second......ECU. Obviously ESPN belived the market for ECU FB reached a little further out then Greenville N.C.