In case you aren't familiar the board I started is now merging with this one. I hope everyone likes the change. The only complaint I've received thus far is that the people from the other board wish that the seperated football and hoops boards were used. I'd like to get your opinions on this if you could.


Thanks!

CardFANATIC Wrote:In case you aren't familiar the board I started is now merging with this one. I hope everyone likes the change. The only complaint I've received thus far is that the people from the other board wish that the seperated football and hoops boards were used. I'd like to get your opinions on this if you could.


Thanks!

I say NO!

That is the problem with new boards. They try to do too many topic folders. Net effect: 90% of the topic folders are crap. Look it at this board--hardly any of the individual team folders are used.

Split the topic folders when the volume dictates. This board is just starting to take off.

I agree...I like the board the way it is...there is plenty of room for football/bball topics in one place


Jackson

Hey Jackson

I just sent you a PM (private message) on a different subject.

As one of the few Non-DI Football school fans on here right now, I'd have to say I prefer splitting. Big East football is not worth my notice, as bad as it is. I'd rather not have to read about which team is going to be crushed in their BCS game next year.

HoyaAG Wrote:As one of the few Non-DI Football school fans on here right now, I'd have to say I prefer splitting. Big East football is not worth my notice, as bad as it is. I'd rather not have to read about which team is going to be crushed in their BCS game next year.

Nice tude, Dude. You are part of the problem with this dysfunctional league. One day you're going to wakeup and find the BCS pig with the t!ts gone for the BB onlies.

Wow, jokes go over well here. Lighten up, Francis.

As for the "BCS pig" can we all be clear that the non-DI football schools do not receive any piece of the football television contract, nor the bowl money. A good 85% of Big East football school fans don't seem to understand this. I assume you don't because you refer to the "BCS pig with the tits," which I'm guessing refers to some payout for the non-DI football schools.

Furthermore, basketball-only is inaccurate. The "basketball-onlies" are you call them comprise some of the best overall sports programs in the BE. And don't even get me started on the academic profile of the conference.

I don't know if a split really will happen or not. Either way, splitting isn't going to help fix BE football's biggest problem. Aside from Louisville, your teams just aren't that good. Maybe that changes, maybe it doesn't. That's the focus that needs to occur.

Either way, I don't care to read about football in a conference that doesn't interest me. Which is why I'd prefer separate boards.

Which is why

I wrote BCS to simplify--more specifically it is about the BCS teams that have generated the vast amount of BB units, put more $$$ at risk, and are out there trying to keep this conference from becoming the A-10. The football schools are the reason why we have alot of TV coverage on CBS and ESPN.

It is 2005 not 1985.

If you want a separate board create one. I'm sure it will be a big success, I know we've been flooded with G-town, St Johns, Seton Hall, etc.. fans here.

Your attitude toward Big East Football is arrogant and selfish.

Separate the conference and the bball only schools have 1 bid in the tourney... not exactly something to be proud of. Villanova and somewhat Georgetown (somewhat, because of how bad they have been in years before last) are the only programs that are in a position to hold up that side of the conference, not exactly something you would want to be doing at this point in time.

In terms of the "academic profile" of the conference, I once had a boss who said one very profound statement... the school only matters for your first job. After that it is all based on the individual (and his/her experience). Plus, the Harvard's and Yale's of this country are well known for handing out B's to every person in school, whether they do their work or not. Therefore many of their "students" don't necessarily get a great education, as many people like to speculate. UC fails out about 50% of its students for various reasons, and IMO that shows it is protecting the value of its degree.

Actually, you have no idea what my attitude towards the Big East is, but I appreciate being called "arrogant and selfish." Thanks.

In recent years, the Football schools have been better at basketball. No argument there. It's the linking it to the fact that they have football that is silly to me. It's a logical link that is assumed but not proved.

Villanova made the Elite Eight this year and really should have been in the Final Four. St. John's was a very good team a few years ago but watched as Mike Jarvis killed their program. The same is true for Georgetown.

WVU is a football school, but the argument that they somehow won by putting a lot of money into their program is a joke. They have unvalued talent and a fantastic coach -- this is not a case of investment luring players and a big name coach.

Notre Dame is a basketball school for the foreseeable future and has been successful.

UConn built their program without any football support whatsoever. If anything, the basketball program dragged everything else along.

The long and short of it is this: there is a running assumption that non-BCS schools can't compete in basketball. I think that's incorrect. It's a correlation that is not entirely correct (Marquette, Gonzaga, others) that people have taken to causation. Most D-1A teams LOSE money on their football programs; how does that help?

-------------

As for the selfish and arrogant comment, the non-Football schools helped build the conference that allowed schools like UConn to become a power. I know loyalty is such an outdated concept for these times, so I won't go further here. Cynicism has won out over traditionally moral values, I can accept that even if I don't like it.

It's funny. When other teams have struggled in the Big East, the Big East used to try and lift them up. We'd pick up the programs that were struggling and trust in the conference to build them up. Now the impulse is to the quick fix; dump everyone and add Memphis! (Really, Memphis!)

I know which methodology I like better. And it has nothing to do with being down right now.

-------------

As for fanbase, check out Redmen.com or Hoyasaxa.com...For schools in large cities with small alumni bases, there's a lot of interest.

-------------

As for academic profile, I wholeheartedly agree that someone at a lower rated school can get as much out of their classes as a higher rated school. I went to school with plenty of slackers. Rankings are pretty dumb.

However, your boss is only somewhat right. My degree still counts for quite a bit six years later. References are used less than they should. And there are a lot of benefits to a school like GU -- more competition and people to challenge you, smaller classes, good networking, etc.

Regardless, I was more referring to the perception of the Big East. Right now, aside from the SEC, the BE has to have the worst academic rep amongst the BCS schools (well, maybe Big XXII). That's not a good thing. Regardless of facts, none of the football schools have anything remotely resembling a quality academic rep. Compare to the Big 10, ACC or Pac-10. If you don't care about that, that's cool.

-----------------------

Either way, my point is this: the non-football schools have been and will be competitive in other sports. I'm not entirely opposed to a split, but the disinformation and lack of logical thinking that goes into the reasoning by some folks is mind-boggling. There's also an amazing lack of historical perspective; everything is not just last year.

In the end, the Big East may be too big. But splitting isn't going to be some miracle salve for the Big East's football woes. Penn State isn't leaving the Big 10, and the Irish aren't all that close to joining a conference. And in 5 years, who knows if there is a BCS at all?

Quote:Villanova made the Elite Eight this year and really should have been in the Final Four.

Not quite. Nova made it to the Sweet 16.

Quote:WVU is a football school, but the argument that they somehow won by putting a lot of money into their program is a joke.

And luckily we will be able to maintain that coach, do in part to the money we make in football.

Quote:there is a running assumption that non-BCS schools can't compete in basketball. I think that's incorrect.

I'm willing to bet that since the formation of the BCS (and well before that), the vast majority of schools in the Final Four have been from these 6 conferences. Of course the non-football schools can compete to some degree (Marquette), it's just that the BCS schools compete... better. They have a distinct advantage with their 30-40 million dollar TV contracts in football and 15 million dollar bowl games.

Quote:But splitting isn't going to be some miracle salve for the Big East's football woes.

It would most certainly cause more help than harm.

Wow...HoyaAG is in the house and he comes out swinging

Quote:WVU is a football school, but the argument that they somehow won by putting a lot of money into their program is a joke. They have unvalued talent and a fantastic coach -- this is not a case of investment luring players and a big name coach.

-- Actually WVU has been putting a lot of money into there bball program since the last coaching change...both the men's and women's locker rooms have been refurbished, a new weight room has been built in our bball areana (before the bball teams did the workouts in the football weight room) and the bball teams now have there own trainer has opposed to the football one doing double duty

Quote:It's funny. When other teams have struggled in the Big East, the Big East used to try and lift them up. We'd pick up the programs that were struggling and trust in the conference to build them up. Now the impulse is to the quick fix; dump everyone and add Memphis! (Really, Memphis!)

-- If this league had any interst in staying intact it would have made a ton of sense to add Memphis instead of Depual or Marqutte...the Tigers are starting to have a very competitive football program, the mear presence of a 9th football school would have helped our scheduling a lot and they would have brought a bowl game with them...Hey...at least they can afford a big name coach which is more then I can say for almost all of the bball onlys around the country...Even St Johns..the king of bball onlys...didn't have enough cash to go hire a big name...when the Red Storm have to settle for an assistant who had 0 career head coaching wins prior to taking the job something is amiss

-- I think 5 out of the last 6 BE title games have been football school vs football school....so you are ignoring the facts if you don't see a strong trend towards our side of the things...and its not going to get any easier with UC and UL coming in next yr


Jackson

A question -- how much does the average BCS school profit from football? Maybe I'm mistaken, but I've always heard that most of the cash from football stays in football, with the excception of the truly elite squads.

The real issue that the smaller, Catholic schools have is lack of government funding. Now, that can be overcome (look at Stanford -- and no, their football program does not earn the cash in that house), but the ones in the BE have to fundraise better.

Jackson, I know that WVU is putting in the money, but this run was not fueled by a high priced coach or high profile recruits. Unless you're going to argue that nice locker room make Pittsnogle play better, I don't think this run can be tied to the cash.

I haven't said that there hasn't been a pattern; but people are jumping to causality waaay too quickly. Like the Oakland As, the smaller, private schools probably have less margin for error.

Let's take St. John's:

Elite Eight in 1999
Sweet Sixteen in 2000
Second Round in 2002

You had Ron Artest, Bootsy Thornton, Felipe Lopez, Erick Barkley, Lavar Postell. These were good teams. You had a reasonably high priced coach in Mike Jarvis.

It wasn't money that doomed them. It was a complete lack fo effort on Jarvis' part.

Money isn't a panacea, and Nova, GU and St. John's (and DePaul) are particularly well positioned schools to survive. (Certainly better than Rutgers :) )

It's nice to have intelligent discussion rather than the usual drivel.

Quote:I haven't said that there hasn't been a pattern; but people are jumping to causality waaay too quickly

I agree with you that it is more of a private vs. public than BCS vs. b-ball only (well... you know what I mean by that) issue. But...

Quote:We'd pick up the programs that were struggling and trust in the conference to build them up

You see... I don't see the b-ball onlies ever being built back up to their former greatness. Sure there will be the occasional upswing like Villanova is currently having, but the football schools will most likely always dominate the conference, for the reasons you state, less margin of error for private schools.

I don't believe carrying the basketball schools is in our best interest.

The occasional upswing like West Virginia is currently having? Or do you guys really think this is a permanent level of performance? Like I said before, there seems to be a very short collective memory of when teams were good on this board. Seton Hall was good last year!

I take offense with the "carrying." I don't think West Virginia is carrying anyone -- and for years WVU was carried.

I also think that University Presidents should have something more in mind that revenue sports.

HoyaAG Wrote:I also think that University Presidents should have something more in mind that revenue sports.

Check out Tom Jurich at UofL. Almost every sport is playing in a facility that is new within the last 8 years or is going to be built within the next few years. The first game in our new baseball stadium will be played Friday.



PJCS is in the right background.

I like it the way it is, as well.

Quote:Or do you guys really think this is a permanent level of performance?

I think it's far more likely that we have the money and resources to keep our coach than say a Georgetown or Seton Hall if that's what you're asking.

Quote:I also think that University Presidents should have something more in mind that revenue sports.

Yes, and I think that WVU should be affiliated with like minded Universities, with similar athletic programs/budgets/goals/enrollments/etc. I don't see a whole lot in common between WVU and Providence.

I think HoyaAG has alluded to a valid point. How much revenue does a football program generate for a school? Does it make a profit? Does the revenue merely get sucked back by the program? thus, at best, breaking even? Does it operate in the red? And if it does operate at a loss, then does the good will/perception fostered among alumni and the public outweigh the actual costs?

I personally think that even if a football program it is not generating actual profit, that the exposure and marketing is enough to justify it's existence. I think any school that considers D1 football must be asking this question as well.

On the subject of St Johns... their decline has nothing to do with not putting money out there... Poor past coaching hires culminating in Jarvis which led directly to on and off court problems... once the problems began surfacing, it was more difficult to attract coaches... plus they had a definite set of criteria which included the ability to be a known local commodity... unlike Jarvis... so no, not just any coach was going to be approached... the climb back to prominence facing SJU is no easy task... however, just from watching BE basketball this year, I think SJU will be just fine with that "assistant coach" (put the quotes in because I really am too lazy to google Norm's last name)

I don't know about keeping a coach. Seton Hall is essentially NYC; Georgetown is in DC. There are advantages there and at our schools that may not exist in Morgantown. And we may still be able to pay coaches when needed.

As for like-minded, that's fine. Just don't think that the non-Football schools have weak athletic departments:

NBE 2003-2004 Director's Cup Standings:

19. Notre Dame
35. Connecticut
54. Georgetown
55. Villanova
63. Rutgers
71. WVU
75. Providence
86. St. John's
90. Pitt
98. Syracuse
105. Seton Hall
106. Depaul and Louisville
134. Cincinnati
135. South Florida
159. Marquette

I think it is often assumed that the non-DI-football schools do not have good athletic programs or do not invest in those programs. We do.