Quote:City Commissioners have balked at the option of forking over nearly $1 million for major repairs required at Cardinal Park to bring the facility up to Minor League Baseball standards.

That doesn’t mean the Johnson City Cardinals are moving. But at this stage, there are no specific answers.

City Manager Pete Peterson and Mayor Jeff Banyas have suggested a logical place for the Appalachian League team’s home games would be at East Tennessee State University’s new stadium under construction off North State of Franklin Road.

“That’s not a viable option,” said Mark Fox, Johnson City Sports Foundation president. “That stadium will be significantly below Minor League standards, and we’ve not had any direct contact with ETSU about that possibility.”

Read more: http://www.johnsoncitypress.com/News/art...z1eyy8EfAI

Wouldn't that be interesting, the city actually having to pay ETSU rent for facilities use.

(11-28-2011 01:12 PM)Buccaneerlover Wrote:  Wouldn't that be interesting, the city actually having to pay ETSU rent for facilities use.

Or I hope they could work together and make the stadium even better. From what I understand the Cardinals would need the stadium approximately the months when the Bucs would not need the facility. If they could work it out to make it a better place what a win/win that woud be!

The city made ETSU pay a fortune to use Cardinal Park. I'd ask the Cardinals for double if they were to use ETSU's new stadium.

(11-28-2011 01:48 PM)ETSUfan1 Wrote:  The city made ETSU pay a fortune to use Cardinal Park. I'd ask the Cardinals for double if they were to use ETSU's new stadium.

Wow I did not know that!

Either that or maybe it's time JC put in some big time upgrades to the facility, or better yet make them pay rent and help upgrade the facility.

(11-28-2011 01:51 PM)bucfan81 Wrote:  

(11-28-2011 01:48 PM)ETSUfan1 Wrote:  The city made ETSU pay a fortune to use Cardinal Park. I'd ask the Cardinals for double if they were to use ETSU's new stadium.

Wow I did not know that!

the most informed comment i have ever seen from 81....

(11-28-2011 02:29 PM)slappywhite Wrote:  

(11-28-2011 01:51 PM)bucfan81 Wrote:  

(11-28-2011 01:48 PM)ETSUfan1 Wrote:  The city made ETSU pay a fortune to use Cardinal Park. I'd ask the Cardinals for double if they were to use ETSU's new stadium.

Wow I did not know that!

the most informed comment i have ever seen from 81....

Yes I should have know that Mullins would never have worked with the city on any type of arrangement.

I don't remember the details, but it certainly wasn't a fortune. In fact, I think I remember it was very reasonable.

Also, what I don't understand is why they're having to go back and do all these upgrades again (although some of them are new requirements). It's only been maybe 5-7 years (if that) since the last time Cardinal Park had a major upgrade (desperately needed at the time), again for the same reason - to make sure it met the requirements for minor league professional baseball.

I know they have their "rules", but no way the seating needs to be expanded yet again. It's more than adequate as is.

Some comments.

The press has questions about the new ETSU baseball facility, and Mullins is nowhere to be found for comment. What a surprise!

I guess Gary B. Gray isn't on his list of "media members who will only throw me softballs and won't call me out later if I'm disingenous with them."

Mark Fox says "we've given them (the St. Louis Cardinals) back-to-back championships." Really? Has Mark Fox actually gone out and scouted and signed all the players who won the two Appy League titles? I thought that was the Cardinals organization themselves.

Actually, you've given that team a place to play. That's nothing to be ashamed of and everything to be proud of, but you didn't give the Cardinals back-to-back titles- they gave them to you.

ETSU is essentially saying that their new field is going to be substandard, at least at first, by stating it will not be of minor league standards. But I think we all knew that already. No way that place is going to be anything but a glorified skeleton by the time ETSU baseball season starts. I actually believe the Bucs haven't played their last game at Cardinal Park yet.

Which might be an interesting consideration. Imagine if the Bucs could play 2012 rent free at Cardinal Park in exchange for the new park to be minor league quality for 2013 or so.

Naaaaah. Makes too much sense. This is ETSU! This is Johnson City! No way could that happen.

I am reminded of what a rock pile the place was when it was University High's home field in the late '80s, how one day we had to forgo practice just to play groundskeeper so the field would be ready for our next game. The field is finally in the best shape it's ever been- the field is actually- GASP!- FLAT!

I also remember when the men's room consisted of one sink, one toilet, and the sink was missing a pipe so it overflowed into a can of Goop and the drain water spilled out over the floor.

And yet still it's not good enough.

The press box is too small. There wasn't enough space for ETSU to put their announcers this past season.

Shibe Park got drinking fountains around 1939 or so, and Cardinal Park still doesn't have any?

Here's what I think it boils down to- Cardinal Park is old and frankly, it is probably time for a new ballpark. Half of the baseball-football complex in Keystone has been razed. It really stinks for Keystone- having the stadiums in that neighborhood is the only thing that keeps it from falling to slum- and it really stinks for downtown- which has a hidden gem to grow from in a professional baseball park within walking distance.

But our city planners have not been smart enough to figure out what every other American city has- which is that you can rebuild your downtown around your ballpark. You don't rebuild it around a fountain by Mel's Stamps and Coins. You don't rebuild it by putting in parking meters. You don't rebuild it by replacing the Sophisticated Otter with a church or rebuilding a deserted train station.

That's why when the City Manager and the Mayor automatically talk about the Cardinals in "Mooney Field II," I wonder if they have a clue. Okay, technically I suppose downtown could benefit from a ballpark at the corner of State of Franklin and University, but obviously one would be more akin to eat at a downtown restaurant before heading to Cardinal Park than they would where the new ballpark will be.

Secondly, how can you just automatically resign Keystone to fall to slum like that? It's already half public housing, run down discount stores, and a bar on Broadway that most self respecting whinos wouldn't even be caught dead in. Take away the Johnson City Cardinals and the cultural center of one of the biggest neighborhoods in town becomes Fuzzy Holes.

And the mayor and the city manager think that $1 million is too steep a price to pay for that to happen? I'm all about not wasting government spending, but to me the ballpark upgrades sound like a wise community expendature, not unlike renovating a school, park, or street.

Finally, this board needs to realize something. The Johnson City Cardinals are in jeapordy. I don't really think they will move, but the St. Louis Cardinals have eight minor league teams already and the majority of teams only have seven. It would be nothing, if they felt slighted, to just go with a Gulf Coast League team and put the money they save from operating in Johnson City into, I don't know, the Albert Pujols contract?

The whole thing speaks of incompetence. Incompetence by the City to realize this. Incompetence by ETSU to consider "Hey, we could really make this new ballpark of ours take off if we could get a minor league team here by building it to minor league standards!" Incompetence to realize that a 36-year relationship won't mean much if the big club feels slighted.

Personally, I think this could be the first step of something I've called for for a long time, which is getting rid of the Appalachian League and instead have the Tri-Cities collectively try to attract a A or AA franchise.

Why oh WHY must Johnson City have no leadership or educated guidance whatsoever?

I hope someone(s) reading this will think to talk to Tusculum about their experience with sharing a park with the Astros.

That being said, I don't think ETSU should fit the bill for upgrading their park (NOT a stadium) to minor league standards (and I don't think there's room, because the seating that's being put in, as I understand it, isn't going to be nearly as big as Cardinal) - and I also wonder about maintenance, etc. Not insurmountable problems, but a lot to think about....

Here's where I disagree. If you could get a AA minor league team to come share "Mooney Field II," then you have to weigh the benefits of doing so.

To me, yes, you would run the risk of Keystone falling even further to slum. However, the benefits of having more people visit Johnson City, the benefits of the exposure such a club would bring, the benefits to ETSU to be able to rent the apartments they have spoken of for views of 100 rather decent baseball games instead of 30 or so and the extra revenue people would want to pay for those- we're talkin' big league here.

To the people of Keystone, you would want to do something for them other than leave a rotting ballpark in their midst. If that's tearing down the place and building a playground or building on to the senior citizens center that's going up where the football field is or somehow keeping it viable or- here's an idea- build the brand spanking new Donnie Abraham Stadium on the site for ETSU football- then you'd better do it.

I just see ETSU thinking small and building a new ballpark piece by piece, year by year, that never really catches on or is as nice as they promised and is just suitable for their college baseball team. It truly would be "Mooney Field II." That's the way they've always done it.

Then I see the City balking at $1 million for park improvements- and while I'd agree with you on the stadium not needing more seats some of the claims are legit.

A lot of the demands the minor league baseball people are making are for media facilities, and it is telling that the park lags behind in this facet so much.

And then I see the Cardinals just asking themselves- do we really need to be in the Appalachian League? Or would our money best be served right now by signing Albert Pujols and then re-evaluating our low minors at another time- be it by returning to JC when they get a park that meets with their approval, relocating to another locale that is willing to put forth ballpark improvements, establishing themselves in the Pioneer League, going with seven teams, co-oping with another franchise, etc.

Hey, if Bluefield could lose the Orioles affiliation, Johnson City can lose the Cardinals and not get a replacement.

Really, how feasible is it for JC to get a AA team? I'm thinking not so much (would love to be wrong). I'm not going to take the time to research it - that's just off-the-cuff. If that were to be a realistic chance, yeah, then that changes everything. I just think that's pretty unlikely. As in "very unlikely". Is there a "build it and they will come" aspect? I don't see that, because ultimately I don't think it would draw from all the Tri- (or Quad-) Cities enough.

I don't think you need to worry about Keystone. It was there before you and I were born, and it'll be there long after we're gone. Not to mention, they have Waste Management there for a neighborhood night light....... And if you're going to worry about Keystone, then shouldn't you worry more about Carver and Carnegie?

Certainly it doesn't hurt for ETSU and JC to discuss this, but I think it's a looong shot. I'd go for trying to meet the most serious minor league "necessities" (NOT seating - that's nearly new, anyway) at Cardinal, but negotiate beforehand before spending the money, so that one would know where one stood. Surely they can't realistically hold all deficient parks in the U.S. hostage like this. What if they told Pulaski or Burlington, or whoever, that *they* had to spend $1 millions dollars, too? It would be interesting to see how widespread this is, and what other communities are going to have to do.

On Keystone- if we had a City Government that was elected by district, if the city council representative was competent he'd protest the move of one of his district's cultural assets. Who wouldn't?

I don't dispute that Keystone will be there after we're dead and buried. But what I'm saying is the potential absence of a ballpark will have a negative effect on the community, similar to when Ebbets Field was torn down and replaced with cheap apartments. That didn't help Flatbush out as being a nicer place to live.

If the Johnson City Cardinals leave Keystone, Keystone becomes less desirable. In essence it becomes Carver and Carnegie. There's just no debating that. Without the Cardinals Keystone becomes Carver with a senior citizens center.

You say they can't realistically hold all deficient parks in the US hostage- are they? Is asking that a minor league ballpark have enough space to fully accommodate the media too much to ask? Is asking that the visitors' locker room be as nice as the home team's locker room (it isn't) so much to ask? Is $1 million that much to ask for stadium improvements? In the overall scheme of things, it's not a whole lot.

Is a AA team in Johnson City realistic? Why not? Altoona has a team- a smaller city than Johnson City and in a Tri-Cities area (with Johnstown and State College) of similar in size to JC-Kingsport-Bristol.

Erie, New Hampshire, Portland, ME, Chattanooga, Mobile, Montgomery, Jackson, Corpus Christi, Northwest Arkansas- you're telling me the Tri-Cities can't compete with these locales?

Yes, it would likely take the demise of the Appy League. For the sake of cosmopolitan exposure, I say go for it.

One, or Johnson City corporately, isn't going to make a decision on spending $1 million at Cardinal on the whole community health of Keystone. It might be a small factor, but that's it.

$1 million is a LOT of money to JC after the budget has already been set. If they were to say that these improvements need to be made by 2013, for example, then that's a much different story. You can plan for it. $1 million is the salary of 35-40 or more city employees (not higher level) for a whole year. That ain't cheap....
I'm not saying don't make some, or several of those improvements. But more seating (surely a fairly expensive part of it) or a new left-field fence ? I don't see those as necessary. Surely there will be some negotiation, or similar; we don't need to try and micromanage it ourselves.

As to the viability of a AA team here, I have no idea. Wouldn't it to some extent depend on one being "available" - meaning willing to relocate here? Or maybe an expansion? I just don't know these things and won't take time to research it. I just think it highly unlikely.

Why exactly isn't the new baseball park going to up to MiLB standards. Seems like something that would beneficial.

Of course that would require foresight.

for those of you who think its a perfect marraige on this one have no idea how badly the city has treated etsu/etsu baseball by "letting" them use cardinal. its been one sided the entire time with the city being at fault (or laissez faire)at every turn. etsu has payed more than most think to play there and did so at the mercy of the city. to let them on etsu's new field will cost them, and it should.

and to say cardinal park is the mortar holding up the keystone community is laughable...

(11-29-2011 09:19 AM)slappywhite Wrote:  for those of you who think its a perfect marraige on this one have no idea how badly the city has treated etsu/etsu baseball by "letting" them use cardinal. its been one sided the entire time with the city being at fault (or laissez faire)at every turn. etsu has payed more than most think to play there and did so at the mercy of the city. to let them on etsu's new field will cost them, and it should.

and to say cardinal park is the mortar holding up the keystone community is laughable...

If Cardinal Park isn't the mortar holding up Keystone, then nothing is.

What else does the place have going for it? Cars on blocks?

The only thing laughable is your arguement. ETSU never had to play at Cardinal Park, they could have fixed up Mooney Field a long time ago and played on campus.

Second, are you honestly saying that ETSU should deprive the community of the nicest possible ballpark they can build because of spite?

Let's go back to the AA thing. Now, again, to do that you're looking at essentially the Applalachian League going out of business- at least around here- and having to build a new ballpark.

Hey- we're building a new ballpark! We're building a new ballpark that originally was supposed to be something like what they have in Oklahoma City (just to choose another minor league town) where you can watch the game from a resturaunt, or have an apartment that overlooks the field.

To me, that sounds cosmopolitan. And who would want to buy a condo/ rent an apartment overlooking a substandard ballpark?

What I'm saying is that if we got out of the small town mindset and actually realized our market size is similar to other AA towns, and that, yes, a team of that ilk would love to move to such an area if the ballpark was nicer, what it would mean for the community.

It would literally put the community on the map. Imagine a AA team playing Knoxville every year- suddenly we're on an equal footing with Knoxville.

Forget about piddily things like softball teams getting ballparks and worry more about the community- like a new arena that could not only house ETSU hoops but an ECHL minor league hockey team as well- and now we have something OVER Knoxville.

Instead of the Tri-Cities being a place to go to the bathroom between Roanoke and Knoxville, it becomes a legitimately cosmopolitan area on a similar level to Knoxville and Roanoke.

Furthermore, such things would likely inspire ETSU to not be satisfied with the A-Sun and instead strive for real things, like moving to a larger conference and adding football.

Which is what we want.

As for $1 million being a lot of money for Johnson City- I don't doubt that. But Cardinal Park is a professional baseball park, and in the overall scheme of things, where Target Field was just built for $545 million, it's nothing.

Personally, I don't think the place needs any more seats. But you can't go broke underestimating the powers that be in this area when it comes to athletics, so who knows?

(11-29-2011 04:17 PM)PittsburghBucs Wrote:  

(11-29-2011 09:19 AM)slappywhite Wrote:  for those of you who think its a perfect marraige on this one have no idea how badly the city has treated etsu/etsu baseball by "letting" them use cardinal. its been one sided the entire time with the city being at fault (or laissez faire)at every turn. etsu has payed more than most think to play there and did so at the mercy of the city. to let them on etsu's new field will cost them, and it should.

and to say cardinal park is the mortar holding up the keystone community is laughable...

If Cardinal Park isn't the mortar holding up Keystone, then nothing is.

What else does the place have going for it? Cars on blocks?

The only thing laughable is your arguement. ETSU never had to play at Cardinal Park, they could have fixed up Mooney Field a long time ago and played on campus.

Second, are you honestly saying that ETSU should deprive the community of the nicest possible ballpark they can build because of spite?

Let's go back to the AA thing. Now, again, to do that you're looking at essentially the Applalachian League going out of business- at least around here- and having to build a new ballpark.

Hey- we're building a new ballpark! We're building a new ballpark that originally was supposed to be something like what they have in Oklahoma City (just to choose another minor league town) where you can watch the game from a resturaunt, or have an apartment that overlooks the field.

To me, that sounds cosmopolitan. And who would want to buy a condo/ rent an apartment overlooking a substandard ballpark?

What I'm saying is that if we got out of the small town mindset and actually realized our market size is similar to other AA towns, and that, yes, a team of that ilk would love to move to such an area if the ballpark was nicer, what it would mean for the community.

It would literally put the community on the map. Imagine a AA team playing Knoxville every year- suddenly we're on an equal footing with Knoxville.

Forget about piddily things like softball teams getting ballparks and worry more about the community- like a new arena that could not only house ETSU hoops but an ECHL minor league hockey team as well- and now we have something OVER Knoxville.

Instead of the Tri-Cities being a place to go to the bathroom between Roanoke and Knoxville, it becomes a legitimately cosmopolitan area on a similar level to Knoxville and Roanoke.

Furthermore, such things would likely inspire ETSU to not be satisfied with the A-Sun and instead strive for real things, like moving to a larger conference and adding football.

Which is what we want.

As for $1 million being a lot of money for Johnson City- I don't doubt that. But Cardinal Park is a professional baseball park, and in the overall scheme of things, where Target Field was just built for $545 million, it's nothing.

Personally, I don't think the place needs any more seats. But you can't go broke underestimating the powers that be in this area when it comes to athletics, so who knows?

youre right...good luck with your efforts. go bucs