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How about Roderick Ollie, Andre White, Walter Sharpe, Terrence Rodderick, Mike Davis, Jr., Ed Berrios, Jeremy Mayfield (he should count times 4 or 5 since that's the total # of semesters he was ineligible), Armon Bassett.

That's 8 guys that either left in bad academic standing, were ruled ineligible at one or more times during their UAB "careers," or left in the middle of a season. I know there are more I probably missed.

Edit - What about the JC guy from the Navy that Davis ran off - did he count against us academically?

Eight players - that's usually the number of guys MD plays in his rotations, right? He's lost an entire rotation of players since being here.

Can't you find a living dictator for your sig picture? Say, Paul Bryant, Jr.?

Yeah I know I need to change it, lol. I've been lazy.

All of those are two plus years ago, and David has done a miraculous job working within the restrictions caused by those problems since. He's addressed academic issues as they have arisen, and been much more competitive than I thought possible. If he doesn't pull the rabbit out of the hat this year, he's still has been an amazing magician.

(11-26-2011 01:35 PM)The Answer UAB Wrote:  Eight players - that's usually the number of guys MD plays in his rotations, right? He's lost an entire rotation of players since being here.

Why do you insist on exhuming the beaten, dead horse? This same argument has been brought up ad nauseum.

I agree it sucks we're 1-3 and I wish we weren't. But I fully expected that losing AJ was going to be a big deal and would take time to recover from. If we were Duke, UNC, Kentucky, etc., etc., then maybe we could have just reloaded. Unfortunately, UAB isn't at that level, so we mostly have to rebuild. Although you might not have seen last year as a success, it really was.

Of course it was, during the regular season.

Davis won't succeed in the post season. He won't beat Memphis. He won't succeed with a team that has returning talent and expectations.

I beat the dead horse about the ineligible players because people on here bring up the restrictions as to why Davis is handicapped in his recruiting. His recruiting largely sucked before the restrictions, and he is the biggest culprit in the restrictions.

Okay, I'll give a little lattitude on your observation, but let's not rule this out...I don't know how true it is, but were some of these players simply not going to class or not doing the work that was required in same? And were in total defiance of Coach Davis when he attempted to influence them to do the opposite? At a certain point in their lives, they have to take some responsibility for their tenure there, to include their academics, they may be young, but there still considered grown men at this stage of their existence. Am I misreading the cause and effect? I had heard a number of times that this was the reason that Criswell is gone. I even overheard a conversation on the UAB bench a few years with Davis telling one of his benched players something to the effect of "this is what you get for not going to class." The sport of basketball has, to my observation, the strongest culture of selfishness, resistance to authority and entitlement, football a close second. Mind if I put you in a head basketball coaches shoes for a moment? What would you do different if you found out that a number of guys on your roster was skipping classes, yet expecting passing grades and playing time?

I had to face a similar situation when I was director of a youth center on the city's north side, I caught 4 of the best players on one of our basketball teams on the street during a school day, "playing hooky", as we called it back in the day. When they saw me, they took off running in different directions, but I recogized every last one of them. 4 of them were starters and the team was undefeated. We had a championship game the following day, but one practice scheduled for that afternoon. I had a choice to make, let them get away with this and go for the trophy, or send them a message that this is not acceptable and there are consequences and repercussions awaiting them?

I chose the latter. I suspended every last one of them for that game and from the center indefinitely, of course, they didn't take well to my decision, but I stuck to my guns. What kind of message would I have been sending to the remaining players on that roster or them as growing individuals if I'd let them slide (I'd been there a good while and had talked to every last one of them that represented our center that skipping school/class cutting was intolerable) and let them play in that game (which we lost, but that's was not important under the circumstances)??? What's Coach Davis supposed to do if he was facing a similar situation? Nothing? Can't watch them every waking minute of their time there.

It's textbook catch-22 in today's basketball climate.

(11-26-2011 01:54 PM)The Answer UAB Wrote:  I beat the dead horse about the ineligible players because people on here bring up the restrictions as to why Davis is handicapped in his recruiting. His recruiting largely sucked before the restrictions, and he is the biggest culprit in the restrictions.

You're missing the point. It's your opinion that he's the culprit in the restrictions. Others might think otherwise. Lets not forget that CMD did have one of the strongest looking recruiting classes in the nation before it all fell apart. All we can do is speculate on why exactly it all fell apart. I'm sure you don't have any facts to totally put the blame on him, so there's no need in rehashing it all over again.

(11-26-2011 01:57 PM)Matrix Wrote:  Okay, I'll give a little lattitude on your observation, but let's not rule this out...I don't know how true it is, but were some of these players simply not going to class or not doing the work that was required in same? And were in total defiance of Coach Davis when he attempted to influence them to do the opposite? At a certain point in their lives, they have to take some responsibility for their tenure there, to include their academics, they may be young, but there still considered grown men at this stage of their existence. Am I misreading the cause and effect? I had heard a number of times that this was the reason that Criswell is gone. I even overheard a conversation on the UAB bench a few years with Davis telling one of his benched players something to the effect of "this is what you get for not going to class." The sport of basketball has, to my observation, the strongest culture of selfishness, resistance to authority and entitlement, football a close second. Mind if I put you in a head basketball coaches shoes for a moment? What would you do different if you found out that a number of guys on your roster was skipping classes, yet expecting passing grades and playing time?

I had to face a similar situation when I was director of a youth center on the city's north side, I caught 4 of the best players on one of our basketball teams on the street during a school day, "playing hooky", as we called it back in the day. When they saw me, they took off running in different directions, but I recogized every last one of them. 4 of them were starters and the team was undefeated. We had a championship game the following day, but one practice scheduled for that afternoon. I had a choice to make, let them get away with this and go for the trophy, or send them a message that this is not acceptable and there are consequences and repercussions awaiting them?

I chose the latter. I suspended every last one of them for that game and from the center indefinitely, of course, they didn't take well to my decision, but I stuck to my guns. What kind of message would I have been sending to the remaining players on that roster or them as growing individuals if I'd let them slide (I'd been there a good while and had talked to every last one of them that represented our center that skipping school/class cutting was intolerable) and let them play in that game (which we lost, but that's was not important under the circumstances)??? What's Coach Davis supposed to do if he was facing a similar situation? Nothing? Can't watch them every waking minute of their time there.

It's textbook catch-22 in today's basketball climate.

Good point. I think that CMD tried to come in and make a big splash when he was left with little to work with when Mike Anderson exited. Obviously that blew up in his face. So, from that point on, all you can do is try to rebuild the program from the bottom up. And I think he's done a fine job at doing that so far.

I think that some fans have this fantasy that UAB should be able to just jump right back up and be in the upper ranks of college basketball without taking any steps back, but that's just unrealistic. We're a mid-major that just lost it's top player, and arguably it's 2nd best player. Sure, we should have had a more successful year last year in the post season, but it is what it is. And it should be expected that we're going to have an adjustment period.

the fact remains he has had a stable full of players deemed ineligible under his tenure, which directly effected the APR disaster we are still recovering from. if you choose to deny the fact that he had a large hand in our academic woes, you are just putting your head in the sand. you can't refer to the restrictions he's coaching and recruiting under as if they were completely not his fault. they were - and he is paying the price for it.

(11-26-2011 01:57 PM)Matrix Wrote:  Okay, I'll give a little lattitude on your observation, but let's not rule this out...I don't know how true it is, but were some of these players simply not going to class or not doing the work that was required in same? And were in total defiance of Coach Davis when he attempted to influence them to do the opposite? At a certain point in their lives, they have to take some responsibility for their tenure there, to include their academics, they may be young, but there still considered grown men at this stage of their existence. Am I misreading the cause and effect? I had heard a number of times that this was the reason that Criswell is gone. I even overheard a conversation on the UAB bench a few years with Davis telling one of his benched players something to the effect of "this is what you get for not going to class." The sport of basketball has, to my observation, the strongest culture of selfishness, resistance to authority and entitlement, football a close second. Mind if I put you in a head basketball coaches shoes for a moment? What would you do different if you found out that a number of guys on your roster was skipping classes, yet expecting passing grades and playing time?

I had to face a similar situation when I was director of a youth center on the city's north side, I caught 4 of the best players on one of our basketball teams on the street during a school day, "playing hooky", as we called it back in the day. When they saw me, they took off running in different directions, but I recogized every last one of them. 4 of them were starters and the team was undefeated. We had a championship game the following day, but one practice scheduled for that afternoon. I had a choice to make, let them get away with this and go for the trophy, or send them a message that this is not acceptable and there are consequences and repercussions awaiting them?

I chose the latter. I suspended every last one of them for that game and from the center indefinitely, of course, they didn't take well to my decision, but I stuck to my guns. What kind of message would I have been sending to the remaining players on that roster or them as growing individuals if I'd let them slide (I'd been there a good while and had talked to every last one of them that represented our center that skipping school/class cutting was intolerable) and let them play in that game (which we lost, but that's was not important under the circumstances)??? What's Coach Davis supposed to do if he was facing a similar situation? Nothing? Can't watch them every waking minute of their time there.

It's textbook catch-22 in today's basketball climate.

I don't disagree at all with how you handled that situation. I also think that Davis has handled most of the academic troubles we've had with players very well (at least POST 2008-2009 season).

However, in college basketball, you voluntarily choose who to recruit and have on your team. You aren't forced to have players based on school zoning rules. If the guys that you are recruiting year in and year out are being ruled ineligible and leaving the team, and thus causing us academic hits every time, you are recruiting the wrong type of player.

He has changed his ways, mostly, and is recruiting good student athletes. However, the fact remains that he played a large role in forcing UAB's hand in laying down these recruiting and academic restrictions.

You can't refer to these restrictions and rules that he's recruiting and coaching under as an unfair advantage to him, without acknowledging the fact they are largely his own fault!!

(11-26-2011 02:10 PM)Suede27 Wrote:  

(11-26-2011 01:57 PM)Matrix Wrote:  Okay, I'll give a little lattitude on your observation, but let's not rule this out...I don't know how true it is, but were some of these players simply not going to class or not doing the work that was required in same? And were in total defiance of Coach Davis when he attempted to influence them to do the opposite? At a certain point in their lives, they have to take some responsibility for their tenure there, to include their academics, they may be young, but there still considered grown men at this stage of their existence. Am I misreading the cause and effect? I had heard a number of times that this was the reason that Criswell is gone. I even overheard a conversation on the UAB bench a few years with Davis telling one of his benched players something to the effect of "this is what you get for not going to class." The sport of basketball has, to my observation, the strongest culture of selfishness, resistance to authority and entitlement, football a close second. Mind if I put you in a head basketball coaches shoes for a moment? What would you do different if you found out that a number of guys on your roster was skipping classes, yet expecting passing grades and playing time?

I had to face a similar situation when I was director of a youth center on the city's north side, I caught 4 of the best players on one of our basketball teams on the street during a school day, "playing hooky", as we called it back in the day. When they saw me, they took off running in different directions, but I recogized every last one of them. 4 of them were starters and the team was undefeated. We had a championship game the following day, but one practice scheduled for that afternoon. I had a choice to make, let them get away with this and go for the trophy, or send them a message that this is not acceptable and there are consequences and repercussions awaiting them?

I chose the latter. I suspended every last one of them for that game and from the center indefinitely, of course, they didn't take well to my decision, but I stuck to my guns. What kind of message would I have been sending to the remaining players on that roster or them as growing individuals if I'd let them slide (I'd been there a good while and had talked to every last one of them that represented our center that skipping school/class cutting was intolerable) and let them play in that game (which we lost, but that's was not important under the circumstances)??? What's Coach Davis supposed to do if he was facing a similar situation? Nothing? Can't watch them every waking minute of their time there.

It's textbook catch-22 in today's basketball climate.

Good point. I think that CMD tried to come in and make a big splash when he was left with little to work with when Mike Anderson exited. Obviously that blew up in his face. So, from that point on, all you can do is try to rebuild the program from the bottom up. And I think he's done a fine job at doing that so far.

I think that some fans have this fantasy that UAB should be able to just jump right back up and be in the upper ranks of college basketball without taking any steps back, but that's just unrealistic. We're a mid-major that just lost it's top player, and arguably it's 2nd best player. Sure, we should have had a more successful year last year in the post season, but it is what it is. And it should be expected that we're going to have an adjustment period.

Davis wasn't left with little to work with when Anderson left. He was left with a bunch of athletic players who were built to run a full court press. When Davis tried to turn these guys into the type of team he has today, it blew up in his face. Anybody who knows anything about the guys we had and the style they were used to playing could have told you this was going to happen.

How long should our adjustment period be? Davis has had 5 years now, how long should we have to wait until we expect to see results? I'm just wondering what you think is fair.

(11-26-2011 02:15 PM)blazers9911 Wrote:  Davis wasn't left with little to work with when Anderson left. He was left with a bunch of athletic players who were built to run a full court press. When Davis tried to turn these guys into the type of team he has today, it blew up in his face. Anybody who knows anything about the guys we had and the style they were used to playing could have told you this was going to happen.

How long should our adjustment period be? Davis has had 5 years now, how long should we have to wait until we expect to see results? I'm just wondering what you think is fair.

What do you consider a bunch? He left us with 1 great player, and two very good players. Everyone else was mediocre at best. And a coach shouldn't change his coaching style based on the players he has. Sure, he should make adjustments, but players need to be used to having to adjust their game if they want to be successful beyond college. Paul Delaney did that and excelled at the PG position. But we can't forget that we didn't have him the next year.

I can't really put a number on how many years he should have. I take into consideration the circumstances that we've been in over the last few years and base my evaluation off of that. And it's my opinion that he was hamstrung in several areas. All I look for this season is to see significant improvement in team chemistry and execution from the bottom up. I think Davis has put together a talented team, but even though everyone likes to point out that there's a lot of experienced players on our team, that's not really the case with regards to them playing with each other. There's a lot of new faces and it's going to take some time. And I honestly think that Taylor has been underachieving so far, and that's hurt us.

(11-26-2011 02:15 PM)blazers9911 Wrote:  

(11-26-2011 02:10 PM)Suede27 Wrote:  

(11-26-2011 01:57 PM)Matrix Wrote:  Okay, I'll give a little lattitude on your observation, but let's not rule this out...I don't know how true it is, but were some of these players simply not going to class or not doing the work that was required in same? And were in total defiance of Coach Davis when he attempted to influence them to do the opposite? At a certain point in their lives, they have to take some responsibility for their tenure there, to include their academics, they may be young, but there still considered grown men at this stage of their existence. Am I misreading the cause and effect? I had heard a number of times that this was the reason that Criswell is gone. I even overheard a conversation on the UAB bench a few years with Davis telling one of his benched players something to the effect of "this is what you get for not going to class." The sport of basketball has, to my observation, the strongest culture of selfishness, resistance to authority and entitlement, football a close second. Mind if I put you in a head basketball coaches shoes for a moment? What would you do different if you found out that a number of guys on your roster was skipping classes, yet expecting passing grades and playing time?

I had to face a similar situation when I was director of a youth center on the city's north side, I caught 4 of the best players on one of our basketball teams on the street during a school day, "playing hooky", as we called it back in the day. When they saw me, they took off running in different directions, but I recogized every last one of them. 4 of them were starters and the team was undefeated. We had a championship game the following day, but one practice scheduled for that afternoon. I had a choice to make, let them get away with this and go for the trophy, or send them a message that this is not acceptable and there are consequences and repercussions awaiting them?

I chose the latter. I suspended every last one of them for that game and from the center indefinitely, of course, they didn't take well to my decision, but I stuck to my guns. What kind of message would I have been sending to the remaining players on that roster or them as growing individuals if I'd let them slide (I'd been there a good while and had talked to every last one of them that represented our center that skipping school/class cutting was intolerable) and let them play in that game (which we lost, but that's was not important under the circumstances)??? What's Coach Davis supposed to do if he was facing a similar situation? Nothing? Can't watch them every waking minute of their time there.

It's textbook catch-22 in today's basketball climate.

Good point. I think that CMD tried to come in and make a big splash when he was left with little to work with when Mike Anderson exited. Obviously that blew up in his face. So, from that point on, all you can do is try to rebuild the program from the bottom up. And I think he's done a fine job at doing that so far.

I think that some fans have this fantasy that UAB should be able to just jump right back up and be in the upper ranks of college basketball without taking any steps back, but that's just unrealistic. We're a mid-major that just lost it's top player, and arguably it's 2nd best player. Sure, we should have had a more successful year last year in the post season, but it is what it is. And it should be expected that we're going to have an adjustment period.

Davis wasn't left with little to work with when Anderson left. He was left with a bunch of athletic players who were built to run a full court press. When Davis tried to turn these guys into the type of team he has today, it blew up in his face. Anybody who knows anything about the guys we had and the style they were used to playing could have told you this was going to happen.

How long should our adjustment period be? Davis has had 5 years now, how long should we have to wait until we expect to see results? I'm just wondering what you think is fair.

I'm not trying to be ultra-defensive of Davis here and this isn't really related to the crux of the matter anyway, but I don't think it's fair to say
that Anderson left Davis with a bunch of athletic players or anything along those lines.

If you'll remember, there were about 6 or so seniors that were huge contributors in Anderson's last year. Of the top of my head, Squeaky, Demario Eddins (and I know he was injured and technically didn't contribute much to Anderson's last year, but I still consider him a big loss), Marvett McDonald, Richard Jones, Derrick Broom, and Brandon Tobias, assuming I remember correctly. Anderson had a pretty good recruiting class coming in that year, but it obviously fell apart when he left. The cornerstone of that class was JT Tiller, and he followed Anderson to Missouri. I think the only player to last from that class was Howard Crawford and maybe a juco guy that I can't remember, but I don't think so. Davis hastily was able to get two recruits, but neither of them (Andre White and Jeremy Mayfield) panned out. Additionally, one of the holdovers from Anderson's last team, Roderick Ollie, had some sort of spat with Davis that got him kicked off the team, but honestly, I didn't think he was that great anyway. Davis also reserved some scholarships for three transfers (Vaden, Channing Toney, and Walter Sharpe), and while he's been criticized for his reliance on transfers, I think we're thankful that 2 out of those 3 players were part of the program.

Now, we did have 3 very good players left from Anderson's last year in Paul Delaney, Lawrence Kinnard, and Wen Mukubu, and they probably were more suited for a "fastest 40 minutes" style. But at least PDIII and Kinnard thrived under Davis's system, and I honestly don't think we had the depth to play a running/pressing style that year (don't forget Mike Davis Jr. was getting big minutes once he was eligible that year).

Davis's first year was certainly a disappointment in the context of the entire history of UAB basketball. However, looking back, it shouldn't have necessarily been surprising, and I think there might have been a bit of an overreaction in the sense that we were just coming out of one of the most successful short-term runs in UAB basketball history and we were no longer playing in probably the most exciting style of UAB basketball history.

Davis underachieves on the recruiting trail and in game day coaching in my opinion. He has had a few good signees, but he also has had to resort to grad students with 1 year of eligibility. We definitely could have used Dexter this year. His horrible decisions to bring in academic questionmarks has hurt the program terribly.