A couple days back I was glancing over a thread on the CUSA board about ND and the BE...and as I was sifting through the anti BE banter over there I came accross this post

Quote:This is where your hypothesis starts sinking like the Titanic.

Notre Dame has gone on record, several times, in saying they aren't interested in staying with the "Catholic League" concept that will be created when the basketball side of the Big East is pared off from the all-sports side.
It has been widely reported by ND writers that Notre Dame will want to stay with the football playing members because it is the football playing members who actually spend money to have good teams in more than just one sport.

And the real reason the Big East has not talked of expanding to 12 teams is that Notre Dame wants a nine team conference if they join for football.
And their recent announcement that they were going to start watering down their schedule to load in more wins merely serves to support the theory that ND will be forced to join a conference when the new contract rolls out, and that the Big East is doing everything Notre Dame wants to get them to slide in and save the day.

-- Did I miss something? I thought at best NDs desecion between the BABE and the BE would be a very hard one...I'd love to see them come along if they would play a partial BABE football schedule too

-- Also...I know ND has agreed to play 3 BE games a yr...does anyone know when that arrangment is scheduled to begain?


Jackson

Jackson, we both know that poster has some weaknesses in his own theory;

- ND is "on record, several times, in saying they aren't interested in staying with the "Catholic League" concept..." Would this be the Catholic League no one in the BE is saying will come to be since they're all maintaining the BE will remain together? Did I miss an announcement that the split will in fact happen? If this guy's got proof, more power to him. Till then, I'll consider his sources as having names like "NYIrishFan" and "NDrulzzz."

- No conference arrangement offers ND the money they make now, even when they're average at football. And if the 9 member BE was ideal for them they would've stepped in while BC was still a member if for no other reason but legitimate access to the Boston market via a semi-traditional partner and fellow Catholic institution.

- While the concept of ND preferring to side with the 1-A contingent over the AA schools holds water, this assumes the 1-A side would want that. Only way I see that happening is if they indeed add just one more member for all sports and ND becomes the #10 for everything but football. Pardon me while the Cuse fan in me reacts to such a scheme. The only reason ND is interesting as a BE member now is the affiliation with the other Catholic schools, otherwise I don't see the interest in ND without football.

- So ND watering down their schedule is a sign they will eventually join the BE conference?! Golly that makes me feel good about the perceived quality of the league!




Come to think of it, this guy does sound like MT!

:D

Personally...I can't see ND leaving Depual and Marquette and the rest of the bball onlies....it just seems like a such an ideal situation for them to be an Indy for football and in a all Catholic league for the rest of the sports..

-- The trouble is the BE football schools see ND in about the same way as an average looking guy sees the hot blonde that lives down the hall....we know our chances aren't good but will still make whatever accomdation we can to increase our odds....it wouldn't suprise me at all to see the football schools allow ND( if they want in) into the BABE for everything but football and hope that at some point the NBC money dries up


Jackson

Who wrote that and what was their source, because they know nothing, both BE football affiliates and ND know that the Washington Nationals have a higher chance of winning the WS this year than ND joining any conference 4 fball

Quote:Who wrote that and what was their source, because they know nothing, both BE football affiliates and ND know that the Washington Nationals have a higher chance of winning the WS this year than ND joining any conference 4 fball

-- Hey the Nationals are only a game and half out of first right... :D ....but point taken njndirish


Jackson

Just as Gunner wrote, I believe the first half of the quote is correct yet misleading. Sure, Notre Dame would be against an all Catholic School conference. However, I have not seen anywhere where ND has sais they want to form a new conference witht he BE schools. Nope , Notre Dame is in it for themselves. They want to make as much money as possible and the current situation with a 16 school BE conference is ideal for them. Notre Dame gets the best of both worlds, the get to be in the BE for all sports while retaining their independance in football. If the BR FB schools split from the other Catholic schools, I believe that the Catholic schools will drop to Mid-major status. Of course ND would not want to go in that direction. It makes more sense for ND to throw the BE a bone and hope the All sports schools (the FB schools that make the BE what it is TODAY.... lets not live in the past glory days of GTOWN & SJU and see the BE for what it is now) buy into it. If Notre Dame can get the BE FB conference to buy into their offer to schedule FB game withthe BE on the condition they don't split, then all is GREAT for NOTRE DAME.

With talk that Miami will be scheduling games with the BE as well, there is some merit that perhaps the conference will not split.

However, this Husky fan is hoping that the BE FB schools smarten up and realize they have been had and will be continued to be had unles the take control. The only way to take control is to split.

Anything else is just not acceptable. If there is a BE split, I don't see ND coming with us. I see them joining the Big Ten (to make 12????) Lets live in reality and realize the BE will be looking at schools such as ECU for the 9th FB team.

DW

The hoops schools are not going to mid-major status. That is just silly talk. A school like MU that just spent $30+ million on a new practice facility and that has drawn between 10,000 and 16,000 per game for more than 40 years (but 1) is not going to disappear. Schools like VU and SJU have very long and very rich histories. In additon, the Catholic schools are in major media markets, which is good for television.

As for ND, you don't seem to understand what makes ND tick. ND does not do things simply because of money. ND operates to futher is reputation and build people's perceptions of the school. It has a $130 million athletic endowment and $1+ billion regular endowment. Generating funds from its athletic teams is a secondary issue with ND. ND will do whatever it can to enhance its academic reputation, while not hurting the athletic programs. Futher, it wants to keep the alums happy by playing longtime rivals and by playing in markets where its alumni live and where its students come from. I would bet the ND has significantly more interest in playing in Chicago, Milwaukee, NY, Phily, DC and Prov. than playing in WV, Louisville, Syracuse, and Tampa.

Now, connect the dots. The 7 bball schools had a slightly higher average rating in last year's Director's Cup standings versus the 8 football school. With Georgetown, MU, Seton Hall, VU and Prov, the Catholic schools have very, very good academic reputations. ND was in a conference with MU before joining the BE and with the other Catholics since then. The Catholic schools would put absolutely no pressure on ND to play football in the conference since the conference won't offer football. Now, ND will get the same amount from the BCS as if it was a member of a BCS conference. Finally, ND already sided with the bball schools to maintain the BE conference and create this 16 team monster. Now I ask you, if the overall athletic programs at the hoops schools remain strong and you are ND, which conference would you join?

Quote: The hoops schools are not going to mid-major status. That is just silly talk. A school like MU that just spent $30+ million on a new practice facility and that has drawn between 10,000 and 16,000 per game for more than 40 years (but 1) is not going to disappear. Schools like VU and SJU have very long and very rich histories. In additon, the Catholic schools are in major media markets, which is good for television.

Of course you aren't, with or without ND. You'll be an excellent bb conference above the A10 (which isn't a mid-major for bb now) every year, but in most years a few steps below the BCS leagues - and that also is with or without ND.

Cheers,
Neil

omnicarrier Wrote:

Quote: The hoops schools are not going to mid-major status. That is just silly talk. A school like MU that just spent $30+ million on a new practice facility and that has drawn between 10,000 and 16,000 per game for more than 40 years (but 1) is not going to disappear. Schools like VU and SJU have very long and very rich histories. In additon, the Catholic schools are in major media markets, which is good for television.

Of course you aren't, with or without ND. You'll be an excellent bb conference above the A10 (which isn't a mid-major for bb now) every year, but in most years a few steps below the BCS leagues - and that also is with or without ND.

Cheers,
Neil

Well, you may have a point. I don't think a conference of the 8 Catholic schools will yearly produce a threat to win the national title. Given the present circumstances in college sports, I don't think its possible. In that sense, I think it will below the BCS conferences, which will each produce one or title contenders every year. However, if the 8 Catholic schools remain together, that conference would probably have more parity than their BCS counterparts, so it will probably have a relatively high RPI. I believe that the Catholic schools collectively would have had the second highest conference RPI in 2002-03 season. In addition, I think all of the Catholic schools have made the tourney in the past 6 or 7 years. Something that is probably not true of the BCS conferences.

On the other hand, each of the BCS conferences have members that are traditional doormats in hoops. I can't remember Northwestern's last NCAA appearance. But for the miracle run by Jerry Dunn, Penn St has been bad. Washington St and Oregon State have been bad programs. Kansas St hasn't been good in a long time. The list goes on and on. Marquette may be an average program among the Catholic schools, but it has had only 3 losing seasons in the last 40+ years. By staying at 8, the Catholic conference could be a league with 3-5 bids per season. In a good year, a final four team would be possible. In a bad year, multiple one and dones. It may not be an elite conference, but definitely a high major group.

As an alum of a bball school, my goal for the basketball schools would be a 9 team conference and academic consortium, a high major Ivy League, so to speak. I would start adapting the athletic programs so that the members can easily form a conference in 5 years. My fear is that the 8 Catholics expand by more than 1 and water down the both the athletic and academic standards of the 8, well 7., DePaul is not a top tier school so there is nothing to water down. We shall see what happens.

M-88, I don't have adaquate time to give you a good response. ND will look out only for what is best for them. It is all about ND making money. We have a good thread going on the other board I frequent if you are interested in seeing what others are saying on this ND.

My quick retort is this, how will the Catholic schools be able to recruit if they can't sell playing the Big boys? I do think the A-10 is mid-major by the way. Sure the Catholic schools have the Big City advantage. That is what the BE was built upon. However, times have changed and it is getting ever harder for Catholic schools to recruit these inner city kids because they can not meet the stringent academics standards set by these schools.

Sorry I couldn't respond better. Time for me to end this busy day ....

DW

Notre Dame is just a shadow of what it used to be, and it's too bad many still don't see this.

They now recruit no better than a middle-of-the-pack Big 10 team.

Notre Dame's time is running out. Give it a couple more years; you'll see.



Notre Dame the last 10 years:
64% winning percentage
0 Bowl Wins
0 Top 10 Finishes

CardHouse Wrote:Notre Dame is just a shadow of what it used to be, and it's too bad many still don't see this.

They now recruit no better than a middle-of-the-pack Big 10 team.

Notre Dame's time is running out. Give it a couple more years; you'll see.



Notre Dame the last 10 years:
64% winning percentage
0 Bowl Wins
0 Top 10 Finishes

You underestimate the power of Charlie Weiss. I'm only saying that because I'm a Pats' fan. :wave:

Murph1 Wrote:

CardHouse Wrote:Notre Dame is just a shadow of what it used to be, and it's too bad many still don't see this. 

They now recruit no better than a middle-of-the-pack Big 10 team.

Notre Dame's time is running out.  Give it a couple more years; you'll see.



Notre Dame the last 10 years:
64% winning percentage
0 Bowl Wins
0 Top 10 Finishes

You underestimate the power of Charlie Weiss. I'm only saying that because I'm a Pats' fan. :wave:

I actually agree with the UConn fan on something because we both agree on the Pats. I'm a Pats fan my dad was born and rased in the South Shore of Massachusetts, for me home is North Jersey/NYC and South Shore/Boston. I'm a Mets fan and a Devils/Bruins fan. Thus I was also very upset with no hockey season this year, since its the favorite sport of myself and my family.

MU88 Wrote:Well, you may have a point.  I don't think a conference of the 8 Catholic schools will yearly produce a threat to win the national title.  Given the present circumstances in college sports, I don't think its possible.  In that sense, I think it will below the BCS conferences, which will each produce one or title contenders every year.  However, if the 8 Catholic schools remain together, that conference would probably have more parity than their BCS counterparts, so it will probably have a relatively high RPI.  I believe that the Catholic schools collectively would have had the second highest conference RPI in 2002-03 season.  In addition, I think all of the Catholic schools have made the tourney in the past 6 or 7 years.  Something that is probably not true of the BCS conferences.

On the other hand, each of the BCS conferences have members that are traditional doormats in hoops.&nbsp; I can't remember Northwestern's last NCAA appearance.&nbsp; But for the miracle run by Jerry Dunn, Penn St has been bad.&nbsp; Washington St and Oregon State have been bad programs.&nbsp; Kansas St hasn't been good in a long time.&nbsp; The list goes on and on.&nbsp; Marquette may be an average program among the Catholic schools, but it has had only 3 losing seasons in the last 40+ years.&nbsp; <span style='color:blue'>By staying at 8, the Catholic conference could be a league with 3-5 bids per season</span>.&nbsp; In a good year,&nbsp; a final four team would be possible.&nbsp; In a bad year, multiple one and dones.&nbsp; It may not be an elite conference, but definitely a high major group.&nbsp;

As an alum of a bball school, my goal for the basketball schools would be a 9 team conference and academic consortium, a high major Ivy League, so to speak.&nbsp; I would start adapting the athletic programs so that the members can easily form a conference in 5 years.&nbsp; My fear is that the 8 Catholics expand by more than 1 and water down the both the athletic and academic standards of the 8, well 7., DePaul is not a top tier school so there is nothing to water down.&nbsp; We shall see what happens.

We associate a high major with conferences that send a multiple at-large bids to NCAA tournament every year. A mid-major once in a blue moon sends a multiple at-large bid to NCAA.

<a href='http://www.bigeast.org/reference/records/mbball/postseason.asp' target='_blank'>The pass 5 years of BE post-season appearance (1A football versus non-1A football)</a>

2003-2004 (4FB, 2BB)
UConn
BC
Pitt
Syracuse
Seton Hall
Providence

2002-2003 (4FB)
UConn
ND
Pitt
Syracuse

2001-2002 (5FB, BB)
BC
UConn
Miami
ND
Pitt
St. John’s

2000-2001 (3FB, 2BB)
BC
ND
Syracuse
Georgetown
Providence

1999-2000 (3FB, 2BB)
UConn
Miami
Syracuse
St. John’s
Seton Hall

SO#1 Wrote:

MU88 Wrote:Well, you may have a point.  I don't think a conference of the 8 Catholic schools will yearly produce a threat to win the national title.  Given the present circumstances in college sports, I don't think its possible.  In that sense, I think it will below the BCS conferences, which will each produce one or title contenders every year.  However, if the 8 Catholic schools remain together, that conference would probably have more parity than their BCS counterparts, so it will probably have a relatively high RPI.  I believe that the Catholic schools collectively would have had the second highest conference RPI in 2002-03 season.  In addition, I think all of the Catholic schools have made the tourney in the past 6 or 7 years.  Something that is probably not true of the BCS conferences.

On the other hand, each of the BCS conferences have members that are traditional doormats in hoops.  I can't remember Northwestern's last NCAA appearance.  But for the miracle run by Jerry Dunn, Penn St has been bad.  Washington St and Oregon State have been bad programs.  Kansas St hasn't been good in a long time.  The list goes on and on.  Marquette may be an average program among the Catholic schools, but it has had only 3 losing seasons in the last 40+ years.  <span style='color:blue'>By staying at 8, the Catholic conference could be a league with 3-5 bids per season</span>.  In a good year,  a final four team would be possible.  In a bad year, multiple one and dones.  It may not be an elite conference, but definitely a high major group. 

As an alum of a bball school, my goal for the basketball schools would be a 9 team conference and academic consortium, a high major Ivy League, so to speak.  I would start adapting the athletic programs so that the members can easily form a conference in 5 years.  My fear is that the 8 Catholics expand by more than 1 and water down the both the athletic and academic standards of the 8, well 7., DePaul is not a top tier school so there is nothing to water down.  We shall see what happens.

We associate a high major with conferences that send a multiple at-large bids to NCAA tournament every year. A mid-major once in a blue moon sends a multiple at-large bid to NCAA.

<a href='http://www.bigeast.org/reference/records/mbball/postseason.asp' target='_blank'>The pass 5 years of BE post-season appearance (1A football versus non-1A football)</a>

2003-2004 (4FB, 2BB)
UConn
BC
Pitt
Syracuse
Seton Hall
Providence

2002-2003 (4FB)
UConn
ND
Pitt
Syracuse

2001-2002 (5FB, BB)
BC
UConn
Miami
ND
Pitt
St. John’s

2000-2001 (3FB, 2BB)
BC
ND
Syracuse
Georgetown
Providence

1999-2000 (3FB, 2BB)
UConn
Miami
Syracuse
St. John’s
Seton Hall

Count ND as a hoops school (it doesn't play football in the BE) and add MU, DePaul and let's say Xavier to the other 6 bball schools. I would believe that you would have between 3-5 bids every years, except last year, for the 9 Catholic schools. I think that number would continue.