Jackson1011 Wrote:

Quote:2. Virginia/mid-Atlantic recruiting - Virginia has some excellent recruits especially the Tidewater area - a lot of gifted athletes.

-- Just to add another point on to this...VAs population exploded in the late 80s and 90s....being in one of the fastest growing states this side of the mississippi never hurts...almost over night there were more then enough players for both UVA and VT and the Tidewater became a major recruting hotbed


Jackson

Demographic shift are also important for schools being successful. Former powers have fallen like Rice and SMU as the the cities they played in grew into pro sports markets.

My school is Ohio U is in a region undergoing a demographic shift. In the state of Ohio, everything is becoming centralized around Columbus because its in the dead center of the state. That growth is starting to trickle down to Ohio U which is just 60 miles from the Columbus beltway. The county just southeast of Columbus, a 30 miles from OU has increased in population by 50% over the last 10 years with more future growth projected. A high speed limited access freeway is being finished between Columbus and OU. What used to be a two hour trip to Columbus is now going to be 50 minutes and our large alumni base in Columbus is going to be practically on our doorstep.

Then you have schools in the MAC with practically all their alumni within a 30 mile radius yet can't draw because of apathy. If they could get their act together, the potential is enormous. NIU is a school that was apathetic about its football program, but now with a decent team draw 27,000 a game with so many alumni nearby in Chicago. With a growing school that number could be 40,000 or more some day.

Relating this back to the Big East, it would be interesting to see how well UC and USF are drawing once they've been in the conference for 5 years. 40,000 a game shouldn't be out of reach.

I'm Not Dutch Hoffman Wrote:

uofmlimbo Wrote:If I'm not mistaken, he had about 6 or 7 straight losing seasons.  People were calling for Beamer's head and during his the last losing season, fans were calling for the AD's head for not firing Beamer the yr before.  A couple of good recruiting classes and some name Vick turn the program around.

You are mistaken. Here's Beamer's record for the first six years:

1987 2-9
1988 3-8
1989 6-4-1
1990 6-5
1991 5-6
1992 2-8-1

That period could definitely be categorized as "up and down," but overall it wasn't quite that dire. In fact, Beamer was courted heavily by Boston College after the 1990 season. The 1992 campaign (and the apparent trend that it indicated as carry over from 1991) almost did him in. He had to fire a couple of long-time friends from his staff at the direction of the AD. One of the "new" guys who Beamer brought in after 1992 was Phil Elmassian. Knowledgeable folks in Blacksburg say that Elmassian really deserves a lot of the credit for turning things around. Beamer is a really good coach, but he's "too d--- nice" was the word around town in 1992.

The program's surprising campaign in 1993 (the first year of round robin play in the BE) is what really got the Hokies rolling. And aside from a major malfunction against Syracuse and a poor performance against Nebraska in the Orange Bowl, the 1996 team was just about as good as anyone else in the country.

Vick's breakout in 1999 is the factor in promoting the view of the Hokies as more of a truly "elite" program. But the fact is that Tech's been competitive on a regular basis since 1993, and that is directly attributable to the Hokies' admission into the BE.

Your so right. I was reading some of these post and thinking that Tech was very good long before Vick got there. He just made them better as in a different level.

Quote:Demographic shift are also important for schools being successful. Former powers have fallen like Rice and SMU as the the cities they played in grew into pro sports markets.

My school is Ohio U is in a region undergoing a demographic shift. In the state of Ohio, everything is becoming centralized around Columbus because its in the dead center of the state. That growth is starting to trickle down to Ohio U which is just 60 miles from the Columbus beltway. The county just southeast of Columbus, a 30 miles from OU has increased in population by 50% over the last 10 years with more future growth projected. A high speed limited access freeway is being finished between Columbus and OU. What used to be a two hour trip to Columbus is now going to be 50 minutes and our large alumni base in Columbus is going to be practically on our doorstep.

Then you have schools in the MAC with practically all their alumni within a 30 mile radius yet can't draw because of apathy. If they could get their act together, the potential is enormous. NIU is a school that was apathetic about its football program, but now with a decent team draw 27,000 a game with so many alumni nearby in Chicago. With a growing school that number could be 40,000 or more some day.

Relating this back to the Big East, it would be interesting to see how well UC and USF are drawing once they've been in the conference for 5 years. 40,000 a game shouldn't be out of reach.

-- Kit Cat....is Ohio U a private school or a state school?


Jackson

Wasn't VT in 4th place the year before they left? I don't think they outgrew the BE; I think they took an opportunity when they saw it and went to the weaker acc. Believe me when I say this: if Pitt, WVU, and SYR had also gone to the acc, there would be more than 3 ex-BE teams in the top half of that conference.

Jim

How does one define an elite program? Rather than base on one felling we need a ways to quantified it. But what do you use? Wins and loses? How much money the program generates? Fans supports? We can’t help but look at the size of the stadium and how well it fills up when considering an elite program. In 2001, VT got beat by Syracuse but still got pick by Gator Bowl.

You want to see how it was started


VT profile-----1998------1999-----2000------2001--------2002------2003-----2004ACC
Record----------9-3 --------11-1-----11-1-------8-4----------10-4------8-5-------10-3
Record conf----(5-2)------(7-0)-----(6-1)------(4-3)--------(3-4)------(4-3)-----(8-1)
Record vs. BE-[3-1]------[4-0]------[4-0]------[2-2]--------[1-3]------[2-2]
Donation----- $8.9M ----$10M----$10.3M---$10.7M----$14.4M---$18.6M
Season ticket—18,433---23,816---29,440----30,254-----36,000----36,300
Attendance-----49,045---52,519---56,272----50,762-----63,344----65,115
Total Revenue ----------------------------------$26.9M------$33.5M-----$38.9M
Total Expense-----------------------------------$25.4M------$28.3M-----$35.8M

HC Frank Beamer salary 2004 =>$1.75M total annually

BE (Rutgers, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, 2001-2003, After Michel Vick, 5-7)

Attendance was down in 2001 because they have to take down temporary bleachers to make room for additional seating.

VT profile-----------1994------1995-------1996------1997
Season ticket------12,280----14,124----16,087---16,675

It took VT over a decade to develop into a national player. Good or smart scheduling is the best way getting to the top. Look at their 1999 schedule with OOC like JMU, UAB and Clemson aloud them to playing in the title game.

As fan we can control donation, season tickets, attendance and revenue but coaches and administrators responsible for the remaining requirement for program to reach a national stage.

Va Tech's growth over the past 10 years is unbelievable.

To go from 12,000 season tix holders to 36,000....and to increase their donations to $19 Million in such a short period...that's how one gets noticed.

KL

I'm Not Dutch Hoffman Wrote:Ultimately both sides did what they had to do. It wasn't pretty, but to paraphrase Tom Hagen from The Godfather, it was "just business." Really no need for bitterness on either side.

Unless you're an East Carolina fan. Because the argument could be made that the Pirates could have taken VT's slot in the Big East and done just as well with it.

Thank you, but VT is not the program that I really felt bitter about, Temple WAS and we all know how that one turned out. I think we could have taken that football only membership and rode it to a level somewhat similar to VT and today the Big East would be all the better for it.

ECU and VT were roughly parallel in football in the 80's and early 90's and had similar histories and fan support. Even with out being able to recruit the same level of players as the Big East teams we consistently beat some of the best the Big East had to offer with lesser athletes and most away from home.

This is our records from the inception of the Big East football and pretty much our best years.

from 1991-2001

Miami 2-0
Pitt 2-0
Syracuse 3-5
Virginia Tech 2-5
West Virginia 2-5
Temple 2-0

13-15

We beat two highly ranked Miami teams(one that was the Co-Big East Champ), two highly ranked Syracuse teams, and a Ranked Pitt team in that stretch. Had we had a conference like the Big East to recruit with I think we could have taken 9-3 & 8-4 type seasons we had in the 90's and made them 10-2 seasons like VT did.

Kit-Cat Wrote:Virginia Tech is a solid academic school and receives more state funding now than UVA. ECU is a second fiddle academic school in North Carolina.

The NC educational system is one of the very best in the country. ECU academically is on the same tier as the majority of the schools in the current Big East.

UNC is arguably the best public university, NC State isn't far behind and Duke and Wake are two of the very best universities in the nation. You could compare most schools in the nation to UNC, NCSU, Duke and Wake Forrest in our state and most all would play second fiddle as well so I don't really get you point.

StillJonesing Wrote:

Kit-Cat Wrote:Virginia Tech is a solid academic school and receives more state funding now than UVA. ECU is a second fiddle academic school in North Carolina.

The NC educational system is one of the very best in the country. ECU academically is on the same tier as the majority of the schools in the current Big East.

UNC is arguably the best public university, NC State isn't far behind and Duke and Wake are two of the very best universities in the nation. You could compare most schools in the nation to UNC, NCSU, Duke and Wake Forrest in our state and most all would play second fiddle as well so I don't really get you point.

NC has a good public university system, but Virginia's is even better.

The University of Virginia is more than a match for Chapel Hill, and Virginia Tech is a top 75 national university with a top 20 engineering school. VT is a big step above NC State academically. James Madison in Virginia is a lot like East Carolina in regards to academic mission and even JMU has better perception.

Don't get me wrong, I've been to East Carolina and I think its a fun place to go to college with a BCS level type football program, but to say its on par with Virginia Tech academically is a stretch. My point is that East Carolina would have never been taken over Virginia Tech into the Big East because of academic and geography reasons.

I do think East Carolina would be the best choice as a 9th football member because of its ability to travel and its an East Coast school. Your assessment about ECU being in the Big East over Temple is dead on. I'm not sure if ECU would have been as successful as Virginia Tech though. ECU seems to have a few big seasons, but for the most part hasn't been great.

Surprisingly, East Carolina has had 14 losing seasons in the last 25 years. In contrast, Virginia Tech has only had 4 losing seasons over the last 25. VT was a more consistent program than ECU ever was as an independent. Even in the preceding 25 years (1980-1955) VT only had 10 losing seasons while ECU had 9 against Division II competition. ECU didn't really start stepping up the schedule until the late 70's.

Kit-Cat Wrote:Surprisingly, East Carolina has had 14 losing seasons in the last 25 years. In contrast, Virginia Tech has only had 4 losing seasons over the last 25. VT was a more consistent program than ECU ever was as an independent.

Most of the seasons from 1987-2001 were either winning seasons or roughly right at .500. The only real disaster in that time frame was 1993 in which we lost our top 3 QB's and were playing with a converted Freshman WR and went 2-9 The last 3 years have been a disaster, and even 2001 we were preseason top 25 and vastly underachieved. Had we been in the Big East I think a lot of that could have been avoided because the program would have been a lot more solid.

For the most part we were close to winning seasons other times and playing serious schedules I might add.

1987 5-6
1989 5-5-1
1990 5-6
1992 5-6
1997 5-6



I think the 5-6 seasons and the 6-5 type seasons we had in the 90's would have been more like 7-4 type seasons had we been in the Big East during that period I also think our 8-4, 9-3 type ones would have been more like 10-2's. Just remember we would have been getting much better athletes and there were tons of close games.

That said I think VT took it to a new level with Vick. I am not saying we would have got their but I think we would have been a more successful team in the 90's we would have still had the big wins and maybe a couple of more, but the big thing is you wouldn't have seen us losing to the UAB's and other head scratcher teams that we did on many occations. We may have even taken some of the thunder away from VT being so close.

As far as playing D2 competiton in the 70's, we have never been D2 or even D1aa, we were just in a lower teir conference at that point. No shame in it though that was the same conference we were in with West Virginia for a while and Virginia Tech had been it in a few years before we joined. It was still major college football at that time and we still got to a bowl in 1978 while part of it.

Kit-Cat Wrote:NC has a good public university system, but Virginia's is even better.

The University of Virginia is more than a match for Chapel Hill, and Virginia Tech is a top 75 national university with a top 20 engineering school. VT is a big step above NC State academically. James Madison in Virginia is a lot like East Carolina in regards to academic mission and even JMU has better perception.

Don't get me wrong, I've been to East Carolina and I think its a fun place to go to college with a BCS level type football program, but to say its on par with Virginia Tech academically is a stretch. My point is that East Carolina would have never been taken over Virginia Tech into the Big East because of academic and geography reasons.

Virginia does have strong public schools with Virginia, William & Mary, JMU, and Virginia Tech leading the pack. East Carolina is really more in line with an Old Dominion or George Mason academically. From the Princeton Review:

Virginia Tech:
Avg SAT = 1198
Avg High School GPA = 3.67
Admissions Selectivity Rating = 94
Academic Rating = 75

James Madison:
Avg SAT = 1162
Avg High School GPA = 3.68
Admissions Selectivity Rating = 93
Academic Rating = 78

Old Dominion:
Avg SAT = 1057
Avg High School GPA = 3.30
Admissions Selectivity Rating = 75
Academic Rating = 67

East Carolina:
Avg SAT = 1048
Avg High School GPA = 3.45
Admissions Selectivity Rating = 79
Academic Rating = 69

Also, 2004 Sagarin Football Rankings:
VT: #7
JMU: #36
ECU: #137

Don't bring down my alma mater just because you have some sort of issue with ECU. :)

rufus Wrote:Don't bring down my alma mater just because you have some sort of issue with ECU. :)

Getting farther off topic but you should have put enrolment up there as well:

ECU will be at 23,000 this year while JMU will is 16K and ODU is 18K. I am sure it a lot easier to be selective at those numbers. Our State is one of the fastest growing and there is a push in the universities for more students. The plan is to cap close to 28-30k in the next few years and get more selective.

Playing in a weak BCS conference like the Big East helped alot.....

A view from a fan of a school that has been conf brothers with VA Tech in the past and has played them off and on for 4 decades...... Va Tech was good for the BE and the BE was good for Va Tech.

Va Tech didn't outgrw the BE. Va Tech did well when given the opportunity and they had state government leaders that were responsive when they were called upon.

oldtiger Wrote:A view from a fan of a school that has been conf brothers with VA Tech in the past and has played them off and on for 4 decades...... Va Tech was good for the BE and the BE was good for Va Tech.

Va Tech didn't outgrw the BE. Va Tech did well when given the opportunity and they had state government leaders that were responsive when they were called upon.

Exactly.

You know what is really disturbing - The state government (maybe not even the local government) would step up for the UofM.

rufus Wrote:

Kit-Cat Wrote:NC has a good public university system, but Virginia's is even better.

The University of Virginia is more than a match for Chapel Hill, and Virginia Tech is a top 75 national university with a top 20 engineering school. VT is a big step above NC State academically. James Madison in Virginia is a lot like East Carolina in regards to academic mission and even JMU has better perception.

Don't get me wrong, I've been to East Carolina and I think its a fun place to go to college with a BCS level type football program, but to say its on par with Virginia Tech academically is a stretch. My point is that East Carolina would have never been taken over Virginia Tech into the Big East because of academic and geography reasons.

Virginia does have strong public schools with Virginia, William & Mary, JMU, and Virginia Tech leading the pack. East Carolina is really more in line with an Old Dominion or George Mason academically. From the Princeton Review:

Virginia Tech:
Avg SAT = 1198
Avg High School GPA = 3.67
Admissions Selectivity Rating = 94
Academic Rating = 75

James Madison:
Avg SAT = 1162
Avg High School GPA = 3.68
Admissions Selectivity Rating = 93
Academic Rating = 78

Old Dominion:
Avg SAT = 1057
Avg High School GPA = 3.30
Admissions Selectivity Rating = 75
Academic Rating = 67

East Carolina:
Avg SAT = 1048
Avg High School GPA = 3.45
Admissions Selectivity Rating = 79
Academic Rating = 69

Also, 2004 Sagarin Football Rankings:
VT: #7
JMU: #36
ECU: #137

Don't bring down my alma mater just because you have some sort of issue with ECU. :)

For kicks and giggles:

From Princeton Review:

University of Central Florida
Average GPA: 3.80
Average SAT: 1186
Average ACT: 26

Dang...UCF is basically even now with Va Tech.

The quality GROWTH of incoming students that UCF has been able to select from is amazing!

It's becoming VERY competitive to get a Freshmen spot at UCF these days.

KL

KnightLight Wrote:For kicks and giggles:

From Princeton Review:

University of Central Florida
Average GPA: 3.80
Average SAT: 1186
Average ACT: 26

Dang...UCF is basically even now with Va Tech.

The quality GROWTH of incoming students that UCF has been able to select from is amazing!

It's becoming VERY competitive to get a Freshmen spot at UCF these days.

KL

That is rediculous.......

I live with a girl who went to UFlorida and when asked about UCF she said it was primarily a commuter school.

Granted its improved in recent years, but I have a hard time believing kids are lining up in droves to a commuter school.

Those numbers are right for the freshman class, but they aren't considering the junior college transfer students which make a high percentage of those enrolling at the university.

VTech doesn't have nearly as many JUCO's enrolling into the school so you're pretty much getting the real stats.

Stats in the Florida system don't mean anything because of the junior college system.

Murph1 Wrote:Random Thoughts

If it weren't for the Big East, VT might be sitting in C-USA right now.

Some at VT are still bitter about the fact that early on VT was only allowed in as a 'football-only' member. Their initial basketball request was rejected. Once it was finally accepted, the revenue sharing was not advantageous to VT.

Some at VT are still very bitter at what they perceive as 'Metro Conference politics' back in the 90s. For those that don't know the story, the original plan was to form CUSA around the Metro. But VT didn't want into CUSA because CUSA only wanted VT for the football program, which was already in the Big East. So to avoid having to resign from the Metro and pay exit fees to VT, Louisville Tulane and Southern Miss got UNCC and USF to join them and vote to expel VT from the Metro. The fact that they did this about two months after Big East rejected VT for basketball membership made it even more touchy. UNCC and USF's payoff for that was being allowed to join CUSA (they weren't originally part of the plan). it should be noted that this is VT's side of the story. I'm sure a few C-USA fans here will tell it a little differently. The truth is out there somewhere. :)

In the end, VT has gone from an Independent/Metro to Big East to ACC affiliation in less than a decade. It can be argued that no other football program has been the beneficiary of such a step.

"I'm sure a few C-USA fans here will tell it a little differently. The truth is out there somewhere. :) "

Nope, you batted 1.000, sir =)

Initially, CUSA was formed with six football schools: Cincinnati, Louisville, Houston, Memphis, Southern Miss and Tulane. They then added four Great Midwest schools: UAB (their football went 1-A in 1996 but wasn't accepted into the conf. until later), DePaul, Marquette and St. Louis. The plan was for ten schools. But due to huge buyout problems, they found a loop hole in the Metro charter that said if 2/3's of the schools so choose, they could vote to abolish the conference.

So they needed two more from the Metro (after UL, USM and Tulane). VA Tech was offered but only if football was brought along (as you eloquently noted). VT said no, so the new conference then added UNCC and USF. VT and VA Commonwealth then sued and I also think that Dayton did too as they were the only GMC school forced out. VT and VCU settled with the schools out of court.

VCU, bless their hearts, took by far the biggest hit. The CAA is a nice, improving league that until recently was very geographically compact. But the CAA has only once been a multiple bid conference (way back in 1986, I think).

I think we are missing another ingrediant to the rise of Virginia and Virginia Tech...

Penn State has consistently gone down hill because the commonwealth is keeping their boys home.

We could also say that Clemson's and Maryland's (under Duffner) failure to compete has led to growth for UVA and VPI.

Mack Bown leaving UNC.

I think Welsh and now Groh have made UVA a winner vs being one of the worst teams in this history. UVA was today's Duke in football.

Beamers history and recruiting has made VPI similar to Bowden's early history at FSU or Osborne's early years at Nebraska. Frank is one of my favorite coaches.