Really can anbody list point by point how the BE would be worse off if ND left? I'm being serious...I'm sure there are some valid points on how we would be worse off but I don't know of any and I would like to see some....Terry can you help with this? And I'm saying VALID points not obscure points....anybody?

(07-03-2011 08:18 AM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  Really can anbody list point by point how the BE would be worse off if ND left? I'm being serious...I'm sure there are some valid points on how we would be worse off but I don't know of any and I would like to see some....Terry can you help with this? And I'm saying VALID points not obscure points....anybody?

+1

Not that I love Notre Dame, but I do see benefits to keeping them in the Big East fold.

1) They have good teams and support their athletics programs. This is good on many levels: it increases the overall competitive level of the Big East; We do not carry them; Provides a notable opponent for lower ranked teams (exposure); They will not put us in a situation like Temple did and Seton Hall may be doing
2) They are an academically sound university, I'd like to see an academic consortium with our schools to encourage the further exchange of ideas and research, though we are not nearly as unified in this as the B1G 10 or PAC 12
3) They know they are always welcome to join in football
4) They will not join the B1G 10 or ACC as long as they can maintain their independence in football
5) They help in TV negotiations (whether we agree or not on the football side, their strength in basketball and notoriety do help and solidify the Chicago market)
6) An ultimatum sends a clear message to anyone else who may consider joining the conference that they could face a similar situtation if the majority should so decide. Even the existing members would be under the same threat. Ultimatums are like declarations of war, should only be used when absolutely necessary (Temple).
7) There are no benefits to the Big East for disposing of Notre Dame, the damages would far outweigh the supposed benefits.
8) Loyalty to each other is built over time and Notre Dame has been loyal. We agreed they could keep their football independent, they agreed to our terms. Neither side has breached.

These are just off the top of my head. Not trying to flame, but I do see more positive WITH Notre Dame than without.

(07-03-2011 10:02 AM)HtownOrange Wrote:  Not that I love Notre Dame, but I do see benefits to keeping them in the Big East fold.

1) They have good teams and support their athletics programs. This is good on many levels: it increases the overall competitive level of the Big East; We do not carry them; Provides a notable opponent for lower ranked teams (exposure); They will not put us in a situation like Temple did and Seton Hall may be doing
2) They are an academically sound university, I'd like to see an academic consortium with our schools to encourage the further exchange of ideas and research, though we are not nearly as unified in this as the B1G 10 or PAC 12
3) They know they are always welcome to join in football
4) They will not join the B1G 10 or ACC as long as they can maintain their independence in football
5) They help in TV negotiations (whether we agree or not on the football side, their strength in basketball and notoriety do help and solidify the Chicago market)
6) An ultimatum sends a clear message to anyone else who may consider joining the conference that they could face a similar situtation if the majority should so decide. Even the existing members would be under the same threat. Ultimatums are like declarations of war, should only be used when absolutely necessary (Temple).
7) There are no benefits to the Big East for disposing of Notre Dame, the damages would far outweigh the supposed benefits.
8) Loyalty to each other is built over time and Notre Dame has been loyal. We agreed they could keep their football independent, they agreed to our terms. Neither side has breached.

These are just off the top of my head. Not trying to flame, but I do see more positive WITH Notre Dame than without.

Good post. Trying to force ND all-in or all-out, could result in them joining either the Big Ten or the ACC, which in turn could mean one or more Big East football schools potentially leaving with them.

If as a result of the football schools deciding to split and them not asking ND to join with them - then ND remains with the other bb schools, so be it. No harm, no foul.

Again, it really is all in the hands of the football school presidents. If they find the ND situation intolerable, they can always split and form an all-sports conference.

Cheers,
Neil

Frankly, I'd prefer the all-sports conference. It would give us all common cause, which we don't have at present...

(07-03-2011 10:34 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Frankly, I'd prefer the all-sports conference. It would give us all common cause, which we don't have at present...

+1 Me too, Bit.

Well, the BE would lose an overall good athletic program that finished the highest of all BE teams (#18) in the Director's Cup standings.

http://thedirectorscup.com/wp-content/up...0-11-2.pdf


ND sports won national championships in women's soccer and fencing in 2010-11.

http://www.und.com/genrel/051211aaa.html


You would lose a program that won Big East titles (regular season or tournament) last year in softball, women's soccer, men and women's golf, women's tennis and women's rowing.


http://www.bigeast.org/Championships/20102011.aspx


The BE would lose a men's basketball program that went 27-7 last year and had the BE Coach of the Year (and player of the year).

http://www.und.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-...11aab.html



The BE would lose a women's basketball program that made the Final Four last year and whose coach is about to be inducted into the Women's basketball Hall of Fame:


http://www.bigeast.org/News/tabid/435/Ar...-Fame.aspx


Notre Dame graduates nearly all of its athletes in all of its sports programs and easily leads the BE Conference in APR.

http://www.und.com/genrel/052511aaa.html

http://www.und.com/genrel/051211aaa.html


You would lose a conference member whose Athletic Director sits on the BCS governing Board (even though ND does not play football in the BE):


"BCS Governance
The BCS is managed by the commissioners of the 11 NCAA Football Bowl Subdivision conferences and the director of athletics at the University of Notre Dame. The conferences are Atlantic Coast, Big East, Big Ten, Big 12, Conference USA, Mid-American, Mountain West, Sun Belt, Pacific 10, Southeastern and Western Athletic.

The conference commissioners and the Notre Dame athletics director make decisions regarding all BCS issues, in consultation with an athletics directors advisory group and subject to the approval of a presidential oversight committee whose members represent all 120 Football Bowl Subdivision programs."


http://www.collegefootballpoll.com/bcs_explained.html


The BE would lose a solid athletic program and perhaps the biggest iconic name in college sports...and for what?


I wish that the Big East had a hockey league. I wish that Syracuse played college baseball. But, they don't. That is the Big East. It is a hybrid conference. Everyone knows this and knew this when they joined.


I agree with Omnicarrier. If some schools want to split and form another conference without Notre Dame, go for it. ND will be just fine.

But, there is no factual or legal basis to try to kick ND out of the Big East Conference.

And, frankly, the same question can be asked of other BE member schools. There are a number of school that the BE would be "no worse off" if they left. Why single out ND? Because some people want ND to weaken itself (join for football) to help their school or conference? Is that it?

ND is not going anywhere. You know it. They do, too.

(07-03-2011 08:18 AM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  Really can anbody list point by point how the BE would be worse off if ND left? I'm being serious...I'm sure there are some valid points on how we would be worse off but I don't know of any and I would like to see some....Terry can you help with this? And I'm saying VALID points not obscure points....anybody?

What difference does it make? They're not leaving.

Instead of wasting time on things we have no control over, why not lobby our schools to split. That's something the football schools can do & set it up as an "all in" of "all out." Complaining about the Big East arrngement is crying over spilt milk. That ship sailed long ago.

I agree with you there, Bill. At the moment, there appears to be no movement other than the imminent arrival of TCU...

(07-03-2011 11:38 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Well, the BE would lose an overall good athletic program that finished the highest of all BE teams (#18) in the Director's Cup standings.

http://thedirectorscup.com/wp-content/up...0-11-2.pdf


ND sports won national championships in women's soccer and fencing in 2010-11.

http://www.und.com/genrel/051211aaa.html


You would lose a program that won Big East titles (regular season or tournament) last year in softball, women's soccer, men and women's golf, women's tennis and women's rowing.


http://www.bigeast.org/Championships/20102011.aspx


The BE would lose a men's basketball program that went 27-7 last year and had the BE Coach of the Year (and player of the year).

http://www.und.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-...11aab.html



The BE would lose a women's basketball program that made the Final Four last year and whose coach is about to be inducted into the Women's basketball Hall of Fame:


http://www.bigeast.org/News/tabid/435/Ar...-Fame.aspx


Notre Dame graduates nearly all of its athletes in all of its sports programs and easily leads the BE Conference in APR.

http://www.und.com/genrel/052511aaa.html

http://www.und.com/genrel/051211aaa.html


You would lose a conference member whose Athletic Director sits on the BCS governing Board (even though ND does not play football in the BE):


"BCS Governance
The BCS is managed by the commissioners of the 11 NCAA Football Bowl Subdivision conferences and the director of athletics at the University of Notre Dame. The conferences are Atlantic Coast, Big East, Big Ten, Big 12, Conference USA, Mid-American, Mountain West, Sun Belt, Pacific 10, Southeastern and Western Athletic.

The conference commissioners and the Notre Dame athletics director make decisions regarding all BCS issues, in consultation with an athletics directors advisory group and subject to the approval of a presidential oversight committee whose members represent all 120 Football Bowl Subdivision programs."


http://www.collegefootballpoll.com/bcs_explained.html


The BE would lose a solid athletic program and perhaps the biggest iconic name in college sports...and for what?


I wish that the Big East had a hockey league. I wish that Syracuse played college baseball. But, they don't. That is the Big East. It is a hybrid conference. Everyone knows this and knew this when they joined.


I agree with Omnicarrier. If some schools want to split and form another conference without Notre Dame, go for it. ND will be just fine.

But, there is no factual or legal basis to try to kick ND out of the Big East Conference.

And, frankly, the same question can be asked of other BE member schools. There are a number of school that the BE would be "no worse off" if they left. Why single out ND? Because some people want ND to weaken itself (join for football) to help their school or conference? Is that it?

Thank you Terry...I appreciate the detailed listing of the benefits of ND...I agree ND does add a lot when you list it out like this.

Now...despite that I still say all in or all out but thank you for posting.

What pisses me off more than anything is the ingratitude we get from ND. In this day and age, the Big East allows them to stay independent and still be relevant in all of their other sports. But rather than thank us, they are telling us how grateful we should be to have them. WTF, if football is very important to them than staying independent is invaluable. Could they stay relevant in their other sports if they park them in a lesser conference? A small gesture of gratitude they have not honored but we expected to treat them with honor and respect. I don’t think so.

Let test that theory and see if the Big East without BCS label will keep ND or any Catholic schools stay relevant for long. Those schools that allow the Big East to keep BCS label spend a lot of money, most of them spend twice as many. This attitude “go ahead and split” we will be fine, telling me their ingratitude and not appreciating a place they have among the major conference. If they show us a little gratitude and appreciation I can put up with 17 or 18 basketball teams conference but reading these thing make me want all-sport even more.

Give me a break. There have been hundreds of "ultimatum", "in or out" , "leach and parasite" and "let's split" posts over the years here.

I post one "go ahead and split, ND will be fine" post and you complain about "ingratitude"?

Sorry. Too bad.

I admit to posting "leach and parasite" comments.....and don't take that personally Terry. You have to understand that, despite the detailed list you gave listing ND's value to the BE in non fb sports, the fact is the ONE thing we really need you for, football, is the one thing you won't help us with. So many of the fans here, I included feel like we give you a great home for nonfb sports and in return, we would like the benefit of ND football, which ND won't give us. This is the basis for my leach and parasite comments. I understand ND bball, though not elite, is far from bad, the woman's team is usually good, and you have good olympic sports so it's not like ND is a drag to the conference, it's the opposite there. However, the fact remains, we really need you for football, not men's soccer, hoops, or anything else. But, what do you do......

I wasn't referring to you, Bearcats#1, but in general.

It is not that ND folks are ungrateful for the Big East. They recognize that it has been a good home for many of its sports programs.

However, ND made it clear before it joined that football would never be included. Nobody can dispute that.

It is only after the fact that some BE fans want the rules changed. That demand could and should have been made before the bid was extended and approved.

Some are now asking ND to (from ND's view) sacrifice or diminish its football program in various ways because the BE houses the basketball, soccer and tennis teams.

That is seen from ND's perspective as a very bad, very unfair deal.

First, ND would lose its seat at the BCS table by joining the Big East in football. Sure, the BE Commissioner would still be there, but the ND AD would lose his seat.

Would any BE football team that had that status willingly give that status and position up for its golf and rowing teams, even its basketball program? Would Cincinnati? I doubt it.

ND gets to keep $4.5 million if it makes it to a BCS bowl.

ND can schedule games with anyone it choses.

ND has its own national over the air TV deal with and national radio network with Westwood One.

No other individual BCS school has those things.

But more than any of those things....by far.......is the bedrock fact that ND people view football independence as an integral part of its history, tradition and even its identity as an university.

Football independence is part of the soul of ND, as viewed by its alumni, administrators, students and fans.

That is why proposing deals where ND gets to keep the NBC contact, etc...to join the Big East go nowhere.

That is why deals that may make ND more money with the Big Ten are turned down.

Asking ND football to give up independence for the sake of housing its other sports is like saying "I will give your younger son a job but in return your eldest son must change his last name and repudiate his family."

It is not ingratitude, as SO#1 suggests. It is just that the ex post facto demand that ND include football in the BE is seen as unreasonable and just too high a price to pay.

That is why for years I have posted here that ND will never join a conference for football. Frank The Tank used to be convinced that was only because the right $$$ deal had not come along.

I told him and others last summer that ND would not join the Big Ten, despite all the saliva that sportswriters and broadcasters were applying to the "genius" and "checkmate ability" of Jim Delany.

It will take a monumental disaster from ND's perspective (loss of BCS access, etc..) for ND to budge at all on this.

If the BE football schools no longer want to live up to the deal that ND made with the conference when it joined, they can certainly split and form a new, all sports conference.

I and many ND fans would wish them well and no hard feelings. I would still watch those teams play sometimes and would root for them against SEC, ACC and other conference schools.

I do think that in such a scenario, ND would find itself in a good place, all things considered.

That was the basis for my "ND will be fine" post.

(07-03-2011 10:09 PM)SO#1 Wrote:  What pisses me off more than anything is the ingratitude we get from ND. In this day and age, the Big East allows them to stay independent and still be relevant in all of their other sports. But rather than thank us, they are telling us how grateful we should be to have them. WTF, if football is very important to them than staying independent is invaluable. Could they stay relevant in their other sports if they park them in a lesser conference? A small gesture of gratitude they have not honored but we expected to treat them with honor and respect. I don’t think so.

Let test that theory and see if the Big East without BCS label will keep ND or any Catholic schools stay relevant for long. Those schools that allow the Big East to keep BCS label spend a lot of money, most of them spend twice as many. This attitude “go ahead and split” we will be fine, telling me their ingratitude and not appreciating a place they have among the major conference. If they show us a little gratitude and appreciation I can put up with 17 or 18 basketball teams conference but reading these thing make me want all-sport even more.

+1

(07-04-2011 09:13 AM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  I admit to posting "leach and parasite" comments.....and don't take that personally Terry. You have to understand that, despite the detailed list you gave listing ND's value to the BE in non fb sports, the fact is the ONE thing we really need you for, football, is the one thing you won't help us with. So many of the fans here, I included feel like we give you a great home for nonfb sports and in return, we would like the benefit of ND football, which ND won't give us. This is the basis for my leach and parasite comments. I understand ND bball, though not elite, is far from bad, the woman's team is usually good, and you have good olympic sports so it's not like ND is a drag to the conference, it's the opposite there. However, the fact remains, we really need you for football, not men's soccer, hoops, or anything else. But, what do you do......

+1

I agree with you Terry and thats why I have always felt that even if there was a split that the football schools would want ND to come along with them.

Some of these posts get a little repetitive, aka "Who needs ND? And, you original members of the conference: Get lost!"

There's a reason why the presidents of these 16...17 schools are together, and it's not to keep Louisville (or any team) fat and happy.

(07-04-2011 07:40 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Some of these posts get a little repetitive, aka "Who needs ND? And, you original members of the conference: Get lost!"

There's a reason why the presidents of these 16...17 schools are together, and it's not to keep Louisville (or any team) fat and happy.

No its to keep all 17 schools collectively as fat and happy as possible.