Great deal if you are an idiot.Kill the best bb league ,get rid of ND to get ECU,SMiss and Memphis.Result a weaker football league,a weaker bb league,with less of a marketplace,with weaker schools.GO WAY LITTLE SOUTH TEAMS(CUSA EAST).

Excellent points, Neil, as always.

Without fully rehashing the obvious and delving into the expansion basics again, I think the key aspect from your list is that of mastering the regional market. PSU and ND will always have their legions of supporters, but just as USF, Fresno St and others can find their niche via natural growth, I think the BE must make a concerted effort to reel in the 60-70% of football fans who are NOT attached to the big 2. UConn's development will be a huge factor in this department as big time football is largely a realm of larger public schools. Now the league must devise a full scale assault on the collegiate football fans within the northeast and find a way to earn their share at the least, minimize that of the intruding entities at best. Thus, IMO:

- The prospect for a 9th member, 8th conference game is more critical. Anyone notice how much weight an ooc game can carry? It may be simplistic to say one less ooc game means one less potential unwanted loss, but the reality is that every conference is striving for its members to go undefeated ooc and it appears the BE members may be stretching themselves thin with 5 such contests. We talk about such measurables all the time, especially in basketball around here. As well, the extra game means more programs sporting the BE name, promoting the conference and filling the airwaves. How many more "BE" telecasts will we see featuring BE member X against a name team from another conference?

- No doubt ECU, So Miss and especially Memphis would increase the odds of the BE securing one more bowl game. Most bowls are in the south, these schools are closer, etc etc etc. Now, I don't know about you but I'm not looking to add a member to the BE in hopes they'll "Take away" a bowl berth from my team of choice, and for the BE that places a lot of programs within the same boat. A boat whose key issue (fan support and travel) will remain regardless of the number and types of southern programs added. Think about it: Who will the southern bowls more likely pick assuming these programs are all in the BE?

7-5 Syracuse
7-5 Memphis
6-6 ECU

I dare say the Liberty Bowl has given us the temporary, but immediate, answer. Krocker's rants about securing more bowls with the BE as the anchor are correct, though the league and its members must take measures to fully support those bowls and secure their livelihood. (To that end I'm 110% behind the NYC concept) I also think the league must raise the profile of their own contests and rivalries. There is not as much noise about BE football within the area because of all the cross hype from the Big 10, Notre Dame and now the ACC. (let alone the national hype of the SEC and other big programs) Might keeping future additions within/closer to the northeast help with this aspect?

- Other questions remain about the "southern" strategy. How much would the addition of such program increase support for the BE within the northeast? In other parts of the country? I'm convinced it's near impossible to take away fan support from established flagships like Tenn and Flordia: USF, ECU and other metropolitan schools are growing simply by sheer volume of population increase. As yet, however, few (any?) have established statewide followings to connect with residual fans. Does Pitt have radio broadcasts in Philly? Will Cincy make an impact in the Cleveland market?

Neil's already shown how Syracuse couldn't cammand the NYC market last week despite playing a name program, so I'd be concerned about the addition of more metro schools to truly bolster the support for the BE among casual fans. And that's who the BE MUST lure the attention of, the casual fan! Without that, the market value for UofL, Syracuse and others lacks the upward mobility we all desire. So the BE must find the mixture of programs that will resonate with the casual fans over time or risk a stagnation in market appeal.

- Lastly, is the ND affiliation helping or hurting? ND is a great draw at the gate... because of all the Irish fans! Some of us talk about not playing away games at "lesser" programs and yet the conference will agree to play ND in NYC and let the Irish command the revenue and TV contracts for that contest?!?! And this is a program that is arguably the league's cheif rival for fan support in its own region?!?! This I will rehash: ND needs no more assistance with establishing their popularity in the northeast, and the BE certainly does not need to do anything that will weaken its position within the region, and making such concessions to the Irish will eventually serve to paint the BE in a bad light. But hey, the MAC did get a deal with the Big Ten, right?



IMO the BE lacks national cachet (at least in part) because they're compromised within their own region, thus detracting from solidarity of fan support. Thus, achieving the level of national respect desired must involve the raising of current membership and its support from the northeastern fan base. No amount of realistic outside expansion will resolve that issue, and nothing else would make greater strides in marginalizing the intrusive impacts of ND, PSU and BC.

Gunner fan...excellant post....you have described our problem very well...the trouble is that I cannot see a solution...ND isn't joining and Penn St and BC are not coming back. Frankly, no BE team will take away the legion of fans Notre Dame and Penn St have...There simply are no other Eastern teams to add except Buffalo and Temple and both have horrible football programs

-- Army and Navy would have gone a long way to solving the problem you just talked about...but with them declining the invitation I see no alternative to the "Southern Strategy" unless Nova, Umass or Delaware as a Uconn esq rise to D1 football prominance...which isn't likely....


Jackson

O.G. Eagle Wrote:I hate to admit it...but Louisville by far has the best football program in the Big East at the present...including Notre Dame.......excusing the big glitch at South Florida......but the Big East definirtely has to improve football-wise soon if they are to keep their BCS status....I still say they will lose it within the next five years....... :)

Are you comparing Louisville and Notre Dame? I think that's a BIG stretch. That reminds me of this exchange...

Quayle: "I have as much experience in the Congress as Jack Kennedy did when he sought the presidency."

Bentsen: "Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy. I knew Jack Kennedy. Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy." (Omaha, Nebraska, October 5, 1988)

I would take Memphis and SMiss......

SMiss has good football and their baseball is always great...

Memphis gives solid football and good basketball....

I believe both of these schools would be good additions.....


Now, I've noticed people on here posting adding PSU and ND.....yea, that would be awesome but I don't see this happening....am I missing something here or are some of you just doing a "wish list"???

thanks for the opinion, Jackson, though more of your post hinted at the scope of the problem, IMO. You said:

Jackson1011 Wrote:you have described our problem very well...the trouble is that I cannot see a solution...ND isn't joining and Penn St and BC are not coming back. Frankly, no BE team will take away the legion of fans Notre Dame and Penn St have...There simply are no other Eastern teams to add except Buffalo and Temple and both have horrible football programs

Again, while I favor expansion of the football conference I think too many people are looking for a savior, or at least a quick fix to one of the current stigmas of attendance and bowl appeal. Instead, I think the best and perhaps only true solution lies within improvements of the existing membership. There must be a wholesale effort to take all that bound the original BE members via basketball and find a way to duplicat that kinship, that appeal, and create the same thing for football. To that end, provided a candidate exhibits those attributes and strengthens that bond then they're likely a worthy addition.

Am I foregoing the need/desire to add another solid football program, or forgetting the role of the BCS or money in all this? Hardly, but as we've seen (Louisville, Utah...) success can from anywhere and in many forms, and right now I'm unsure of what the Conference is doing to define and achieve success in football. Hopefully there's more to it than simply saying "We're in the BCS." If the BE were, in fact, to lose its status are these programs built to survive? Dreams of stadium expansion at UConn or Louisville are great, but I'd rather hear that 35-40k fans are devoted enough to show up despite several 3 win seasons, to pressure the admin to strive for success and have aspirations of not needing a savior. Lopping off Temple was one way to improve the health of the entire herd, but now there must be assurances that no other program comes close to such levels of lethargy. What if WVU, Louisville and UConn become THE teams for several years? Will Pitt retreat back to sub-par performances before 35k fans? Will Syracuse be able to escape it's reputation for meager traveling support? Will BE fans really care when USF comes to town?

Potential exists but... the BE is in a precarious position because it could be argued that same potential existed before and the current BE members haven't been able to fully tap into it. Somewhere between the MWC and the Big Ten is a happy medium, a scope and form of conference the BE can be and wherein the BE can experience great success. As yet, that form, IMO, hasn't been properly defined and as a result the BE will ever seem like its floundering about.

At least to the eyes of this Cuse fan.

Remember that this league is most likely stuck in its present form until 2010. Schools are going to have to suck up the 12 game schedule in 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009. Maybe it's possible for schools to put Army and Navy on their schedule on their own instead of having the league do it.

Future membership candidates will be develping over the next four years. Maybe when the split is made public in early 2009, if UCF is doing what they hope their new stadium and arena will spark, they should be added as a 9th member and the league should then wait on a 10th member.

That gives them more time to see what happens in the Northeast. It is unlikely that Temple or Buffalo can turn things around by early 2009. It is also unlikely that Villanova or UMass will have decided to upgrade by then. Maybe it will be best to solve the USF "island" issue and then wait.

Madeagle and Wilkie, I've stated it before many times here: USM has no business being in a Northeast-based conference. We are very happy in C-USA and we will EARN that BCS money one day soon. Thank you, we are flattered.

Quote:Again, while I favor expansion of the football conference I think too many people are looking for a savior, or at least a quick fix to one of the current stigmas of attendance and bowl appeal. Instead, I think the best and perhaps only true solution lies within improvements of the existing membership. There must be a wholesale effort to take all that bound the original BE members via basketball and find a way to duplicat that kinship, that appeal, and create the same thing for football. To that end, provided a candidate exhibits those attributes and strengthens that bond then they're likely a worthy addition.

Am I foregoing the need/desire to add another solid football program, or forgetting the role of the BCS or money in all this? Hardly, but as we've seen (Louisville, Utah...) success can from anywhere and in many forms, and right now I'm unsure of what the Conference is doing to define and achieve success in football. Hopefully there's more to it than simply saying "We're in the BCS." If the BE were, in fact, to lose its status are these programs built to survive? Dreams of stadium expansion at UConn or Louisville are great, but I'd rather hear that 35-40k fans are devoted enough to show up despite several 3 win seasons, to pressure the admin to strive for success and have aspirations of not needing a savior. Lopping off Temple was one way to improve the health of the entire herd, but now there must be assurances that no other program comes close to such levels of lethargy. What if WVU, Louisville and UConn become THE teams for several years? Will Pitt retreat back to sub-par performances before 35k fans? Will Syracuse be able to escape it's reputation for meager traveling support? Will BE fans really care when USF comes to town?

Potential exists but... the BE is in a precarious position because it could be argued that same potential existed before and the current BE members haven't been able to fully tap into it. Somewhere between the MWC and the Big Ten is a happy medium, a scope and form of conference the BE can be and wherein the BE can experience great success. As yet, that form, IMO, hasn't been properly defined and as a result the BE will ever seem like its floundering about.

At least to the eyes of this Cuse fan.

-- Gunner..let me play a little devil's advocate here...Let's assume for a moment that what we are saying is true and BE football will probably never be able to penatrate the eastern market to the extent that ND and PSU do. So...if that is the case why not add whatever football quality and potential you can find east of the Missisippi...bring in Southern Miss and East Carolina (two programs that I think you would agree have big potential if given BCS access)....add Memphis (with the LB and there hoops programs).....throw in UCF if there football program is decent and give USF a rival...perhaps it would be wise to start the construction of something brand new if the eastern model isn't working

-- BTW...I think USF is will be a decent draw to all of the old BE schools...there win over UL gave them a lot of credability to the fans of our league.


Jackson

Jackson1011 Wrote:Let's assume for a moment that what we are saying is true and BE football will probably never be able to penatrate the eastern market to the extent that ND and PSU do. So...if that is the case why not add whatever football quality and potential you can find east of the Missisippi...

As per the general hypothesis of this thread, if the BE is struggling with regard to the BCS it's debateable wether or not these candidates would help. We'll have to see the rankings after the season is played out to get an idea. If the BE is struggling in other ways it seems to me even less likely these programs will be able to contribute. Not in terms of TV money, and perhaps only marginally so in terms of generating more interest among BE fans. Adding one would help, but would it translate into the right combination of $, interest and compatibility?

Again, I'm questioning if there is greater potential for the BE to garner fan support among the existing pool of casual fans within the northeast than there is in the ranks of fans for southern metro schools. I know BE membership would help the newcomers, but would it truly help the BE?

Quote:bring in Southern Miss and East Carolina (two programs that I think you would agree have big potential if given BCS access)....add Memphis (with the LB and there hoops programs).....throw in UCF if there football program is decent and give USF a rival...perhaps it would be wise to start the construction of something brand new if the eastern model isn't working

Well, I'll offer an answer to my own question above: As of right now, I don't think so. I don't see UConn fans drooling over the expanded line-up, conference games or not. If USF were to stroll into the Dome at 5-0 and nationally ranked that would get some attention, but would USF (or So Miss, ECU...) translate into more season tickets? I honestly don't think so because the BE programs are still figuring themselves out. Thus, the expanded BE might improve support among the newbies, but I'm unsure what it would do for the existing members. I've already shown on other threads how it likely wouldn't work financiall, and unless we see substantial changes in attendance figures it might not make a difference in the support for Rutgers, Pitt, UConn...

We can play those teams out of conference, but what's needed right now is something that stirs the fans within the region. Right now pride in the conference seems low, and thus the pride behind winning the conference seems cheapened. What can be done to raise that pride again if, in fact, expansion can't?

Southern Miss is going to improve our basketball faclities, Been alot of talk about that. And I think Coach E will bring our basketball around here in the next few years, You have to understand he's actually starting from scratch. AS for the Southern Miss fan he's lying when he's says he dont wanna see Southern Miss in the Big East. Hell actually I dont care if were in the Big East or Sun Belt just as long as we have access to a BCS bowl, And all Southern Miss fans wont that any who says differently are lying their a$$ off

There is some talk that some BE programs will lose money this year, mainly b/c their football programs are not pulling in the attendence numbers and other money even with the BCS money. So, does the BE need a championship game? A championship game would provide an additional 2 to 5 million for each member.

MadEagle Wrote:Southern Miss is going to improve our basketball faclities, Been alot of talk about that. And I think Coach E will bring our basketball around here in the next few years, You have to understand he's actually starting from scratch. AS for the Southern Miss fan he's lying when he's says he dont wanna see Southern Miss in the Big East.  Hell actually I dont care if were in the Big East or Sun Belt just as long as we have access to a BCS bowl, And all Southern Miss fans wont that any who says differently are lying their a$$ off

I'm not lying...and neither are the USM powers that are....unless the league splits and has a north and south division....there will be no interest fron SOUTHERN MISS...or me....but I don't count in those decisions...I have said it once...and I'll say it again.....SOUTHERN MISS does not want to have to send the non-revenue generating teams to the northeast on a constant basis....That will be the death of TCU in the MWC......now....if it were in divisions...the Big East would definitely be attractive because of the BCS status...if they keep it...

Yeah now when i talk about So.Miss going to the Big East i thnk the Big East would have to bring ECU and Memphis and someone else in. I mean they may go for the money cause money does drive everything but I would hope that if Southern Miss ever left it would be with ECU, Memphis and whoever else.

MadEagle Wrote:Yeah now when i talk about So.Miss going to the Big East i thnk the Big East would have to bring ECU and Memphis and someone else in. I mean they may go for the money cause money does drive everything but I would hope that if Southern Miss ever left it would be with ECU, Memphis and whoever else.

I could go with that if their were north and south divisions....

A championship game MIGHT be worth $2-$5 million - but that is for all 12 members - NOT each member. Divide that by 12 and you get $175,000 - $475,000 for each school. It would certainly be less than $5 million as that it what the ACC got for its championship game.

The reason why teams don't make more money on FB is basically because of the lack of fans buying tickets. You will see that the more tickets = more revenue.

Football Revenue (in millions) reported to the Fed Govt for 2003-2004
<a href='http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/' target='_blank'>http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/</a>

Pitt: 19.5
WVU: 17.5
SU: 17.5
UConn: 5
USF: 5
UC: 5
RU: 6
UL: 10

As a Comparison, here are some other teams
UNC: 15
BC: 14
BYU: 10
Utah: 5
TCU: 10
Memphis: 5
ECU: 6
UCF: 2
USM: 5
Tulane: 6