In a couple of threads I keep mentioning college football Kings, Barons, etc. and I have had posters PM me about what I am referring to.

Back in 2007 Stewart Mandel did an article on the AQ BCS football programs and categorized them as Kings, Barons, Knights, and Peasants. I reposted those lists a little over a year ago.

Since then, I have made up my own list to include some of the non-AQ programs and renamed the last category AQ BCS Knaves.

Anyway, my current working list is as follows:


Kings:

Alabama, Auburn, Florida, Florida State, Louisiana State, Miami, Michigan, Nebraska, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Penn State, Southern California, Tennessee, Texas


Barons:

Arizona State, Arkansas, Brigham Young, Clemson, Colorado, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Iowa, Michigan State, Mississippi, Oregon, Pittsburgh, Syracuse*, Texas A&M, Texas Christian, UCLA, Utah, Virginia Tech, Washington, Wisconsin, West Virginia

*Last time I posted this list, my Orange were listed with the Knights due to the Gump era. But since they appear to be back under Marrone, I have (perhaps prematurely) elevated them back up to Baron status. So sue me for homerism.


Knights:

Air Force, Arizona, Army, Boise State, Boston College, California, East Carolina, Houston, Illinois, Louisville, Maryland, Minnesota, Missouri, Navy, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Purdue, South Carolina, Southern Miss., Stanford, Texas Tech, Virginia


BCS Knaves:

Baylor, Cincinnati, Connecticut, Duke, Indiana, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Kentucky, Mississippi State, Northwestern, Oklahoma State, Oregon State, Rutgers, South Florida, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, Washington State

Some of the Knaves are close to elevating up to Knights simply by getting more wins. But I honestly couldn't place Cincinnati, Kansas State, or Oklahoma State up a level until they at least have an overall winning percentage and in the Bearcats case win a significant bowl (which K-State and Okie State already have). South Florida and Rutgers need to win at least 2 meaningful bowl games.

Current BCS Conference Count:

SEC - 5 Kings, 3 Barons, 1 Knight, 3 Knaves
B10 - 4 Kings, 3 Barons, 3 Knights, 2 Knaves
Pac12 - 1 King, 6 Barons, 3 Knights, 2 Knaves
Big 12 - 2 Kings, 1 Baron, 2 Knights, 5 Knaves
ACC - 2 Kings, 3 Barons, 5 Knights, 2 Knaves
BE - 0 Kings, 4 Barons, 1 Knight, 4 Knaves

So, since there are no Kings truly available for BE expansion, the league needs to make a strong play for the only realistic Baron (BYU) that might be in play.

Whether those efforts succeed or not, the league also needs to grow Louisville from a Knight to a Baron and elevating at least two of Cincinnati, Connecticut, Rutgers, and USF out of the Knave category into the Knight category.

It should also consider which of ECU or Houston is most likely to grow from a Knight category into a Baron the quickest with the AQ BCS tag. My money is on ECU, but who knows for sure?

Cheers,
Neil

Edited to explain my choice of the word Knave: In olden times a knave was basically a journeyman, not tied to a master craftsman like an apprentice, but not yet a master craftsman themselves.

I thought it was a better term than Mandel's Peasants. But I guess knave has some negative connotations (male servant/liar) that I wasn't associating with it.

Cheers,
Neil

Oregon imho is a King.

Having a hard time seeing some of the logic in your lower categories. First is Miami really still a king?

Anyway, how is UCF, ECU, Southern Miss, Houston ahead of Oklahoma State, Northwestern, Washington State and Oregon State? OK State has T Boone Pickens and Barry Sanders & Thurman Thomas. Northwestern has been to a Rose Bowl in recent memory. Washington State has been to 2 Rose Bowls in recent memory. That means those teams won a share of the Big 10 or Pac 10.......what have UCF or Southern Miss ever done in comparison?

I would argue that no one in the Big East is a knave. Cincy might slide back into that group now, but they still have momentum from the Kelly years. UConn is in a similar position, as is Rutgers. Colorado being listed as a Baron is one of the most ridiculous things I've seen. Check their record over the last 15 years.

I'd say too many Kings and too many knaves. If you are making a list of the top 80 teams or so, is say about 40 of them should fall in the Knights category.

(06-09-2011 11:01 PM)The Brown Bull Wrote:  Having a hard time seeing some of the logic in your lower categories. First is Miami really still a king?

Anyway, how is UCF, ECU, Southern Miss, Houston ahead of Oklahoma State, Northwestern, Washington State and Oregon State? OK State has T Boone Pickens and Barry Sanders & Thurman Thomas. Northwestern has been to a Rose Bowl in recent memory. Washington State has been to 2 Rose Bowls in recent memory. That means those teams won a share of the Big 10 or Pac 10.......what have UCF or Southern Miss ever done in comparison?

Oops. Central Florida was originally a Knave and then I remembered I was just going to go with AQ-BCS teams for that category, so they should be out. I had South Florida listed twice - once as a Knight and once as a Knave. So I switched Central Florida in the Knave category to South Florida, but instead of removing South Florida altogether from the Knight category, I switched it to Central. I'll correct after this post.

Believe me, I understand. I struggled with everyone of those placements in the BCS Knaves. But it is just hard for me to say that a team that has less than a .500 winning percentage deserves to be placed as a Knight. Especially when its a program that has had a lot of advantages from the get go, like Washington State.

Cheers,
Neil

(06-09-2011 11:01 PM)superdeluxe Wrote:  Oregon imho is a King.

I'd say that Oregon and VT have the best potential to move up to King, but neither have accomplished it yet.

Cheers,
Neil

(06-09-2011 11:09 PM)General Mike Wrote:  I'd say too many Kings and too many knaves. If you are making a list of the top 80 teams or so, is say about 40 of them should fall in the Knights category.

Actually, while I didn't have a set number for each, I thought the best breakdown might look something like 15, 20, 25, and 30 (since there were 4 categories, not three) it's just that I decided to limit the last category to just the AQ-BCS programs - otherwise it would have had more.

Cheers,
Neil

If Auburn makes the cut as a King, then so should Georgia IMO.

(06-09-2011 11:15 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  

(06-09-2011 11:01 PM)superdeluxe Wrote:  Oregon imho is a King.

I'd say that Oregon and VT have the best potential to move up to King, but neither have accomplished it yet.

Cheers,
Neil

I'd throw WVU in that spot too.

(06-09-2011 10:47 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  In a couple of threads I keep mentioning college football Kings, Barons, etc. and I have had posters PM me about what I am referring to.

Back in 2007 Stewart Mandel did an article on the AQ BCS football programs and categorized them as Kings, Barons, Knights, and Peasants. I reposted those lists a little over a year ago.

Since then, I have made up my own list to include some of the non-AQ programs and renamed the last category AQ BCS Knaves.

Anyway, my current working list is as follows:


Kings:

Alabama, Auburn, Florida, Florida State, Louisiana State, Miami, Michigan, Nebraska, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Penn State, Southern California, Tennessee, Texas


Barons:

Arizona State, Arkansas, Brigham Young, Clemson, Colorado, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Iowa, Michigan State, Mississippi, Oregon, Pittsburgh, Syracuse*, Texas A&M, Texas Christian, UCLA, Utah, Virginia Tech, Washington, Wisconsin, West Virginia

*Last time I posted this list, my Orange were listed with the Knights due to the Gump era. But since they appear to be back under Marrone, I have (perhaps prematurely) elevated them back up to Baron status. So sue me for homerism.


Knights:

Air Force, Arizona, Army, Boise State, Boston College, California, East Carolina, Houston, Illinois, Louisville, Maryland, Minnesota, Missouri, Navy, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Purdue, South Carolina, Southern Miss., Stanford, Texas Tech, Virginia


BCS Knaves:

Baylor, Cincinnati, Connecticut, Duke, Indiana, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Kentucky, Mississippi State, Northwestern, Oklahoma State, Oregon State, Rutgers, South Florida, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, Washington State

Some of the Knaves are close to elevating up to Knights simply by getting more wins. But I honestly couldn't place Cincinnati, Kansas State, or Oklahoma State up a level until they at least have an overall winning percentage and in the Bearcats case win a significant bowl (which K-State and Okie State already have). South Florida and Rutgers need to win at least 2 meaningful bowl games.

Current BCS Conference Count:

SEC - 5 Kings, 3 Barons, 1 Knight, 3 Knaves
B10 - 4 Kings, 3 Barons, 3 Knights, 2 Knaves
Pac12 - 1 King, 6 Barons, 3 Knights, 2 Knaves
Big 12 - 2 Kings, 1 Baron, 2 Knights, 5 Knaves
ACC - 2 Kings, 3 Barons, 5 Knights, 2 Knaves
BE - 0 Kings, 4 Barons, 1 Knight, 4 Knaves

So, since there are no Kings truly available for BE expansion, the league needs to make a strong play for the only realistic Baron (BYU) that might be in play.

Whether those efforts succeed or not, the league also needs to grow Louisville from a Knight to a Baron and elevating at least two of Cincinnati, Connecticut, Rutgers, and USF out of the Knave category into the Knight category.

It should also consider which of ECU or Houston is most likely to grow from a Knight category into a Baron the quickest with the AQ BCS tag. My money is on ECU, but who knows for sure?

Cheers,
Neil

+1 Great post.

[u]

(06-09-2011 11:01 PM)superdeluxe Wrote:  Oregon imho is a King.

No titles, no king; just like WVU. WVU historically has more wins than any team that has not won a NC.

I would also agree with the earlier Georgia comment. And GA did not pay the son of a preaher man to get their title.

This entire conversation sounds like a bunch of Knaves discussing the best way to overthrow the King, and put themselves at the top of the social hierarchy...

(06-09-2011 10:47 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  Some of the Knaves are close to elevating up to Knights simply by getting more wins. But I honestly couldn't place Cincinnati, Kansas State, or Oklahoma State up a level until they at least have an overall winning percentage and in the Bearcats case win a significant bowl (which K-State and Okie State already have). South Florida and Rutgers need to win at least 2 meaningful bowl games.

If Stewart himself was updating the article, he'd probably feel the same way. I don't like being stuck in the Knave category, but we've certainly done nothing to prove otherwise. So, I'm not going to complain.

Ohio State could end up going from King to Knave in a very short space of time...

With the lack of doing anything in over a decade, I highly question the validity of Syracuse being anything more than a Knave. I don't care about the history, your program has been pathetic for so long that an entire generation of kids think that Syracuse has never been anything more than a doormat. I'm also not sold that the program is back yet. I'm not saying that Syracuse can't be very good, but making just small improvements looks huge to the average Syracuse fan because of how low it was before. Taking the next step up to competing for a conference title will be more work than what he has done thus far.

(06-10-2011 06:26 AM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  If Auburn makes the cut as a King, then so should Georgia IMO.

Understood. I go back and forth on Auburn, Georgia, and LSU. Mandel had all three as Knights and none of them Kings. Auburn has the lowest winning percentage of the three but now the most recent title and more Top 25 rankings.

Cheers,
Neil

(06-10-2011 09:04 AM)mlb Wrote:  With the lack of doing anything in over a decade, I highly question the validity of Syracuse being anything more than a Knave. I don't care about the history, your program has been pathetic for so long that an entire generation of kids think that Syracuse has never been anything more than a doormat. I'm also not sold that the program is back yet. I'm not saying that Syracuse can't be very good, but making just small improvements looks huge to the average Syracuse fan because of how low it was before. Taking the next step up to competing for a conference title will be more work than what he has done thus far.

Which is a legitimate stance taking that point of view. Of course, the whole point of this thread I would say is meaningless to some, like yourself, since your point of view appears to be "what have you done lately" and that is all that matters.

In college basketball, I would assume you would have Cincinnati a Knave now as well in your opinion, since they have basically been irrelevant since Huggins left, right?

For those who tend to think beyond the what have you done lately, like Mandel, the lowest one would have Syracuse is a Knight (which is where he had SU back in 2007) with this note: * In normal times, Syracuse would qualify as one of the barons, but they're just so darn bad and so irrelevant right now.

Cheers,
Neil

(06-09-2011 11:15 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  

(06-09-2011 11:01 PM)superdeluxe Wrote:  Oregon imho is a King.

I'd say that Oregon and VT have the best potential to move up to King, but neither have accomplished it yet.

Cheers,
Neil

I agree, I mean look at the ESPNU150 list. Recruits from the South and East list Oregon..That honestly shows king, by looking at recruits that are not from that region listing schools. Like a Kid from Florida..has USC, Oregon, Ohio State, Florida and FSU or something like that. When your brand is good enough that yo u can recruit nationally, I would say that is a King. Also Oregon I believe has played in 4 BCS bowls in the past 10 years.

What is the criteria for a King?

(06-10-2011 09:13 AM)omnicarrier Wrote:  In college basketball, I would assume you would have Cincinnati a Knave now as well in your opinion, since they have basically been irrelevant since Huggins left, right?

Well, UC hasn't been quite the doormat that Syracuse has been over the past decade (remember, he left in 2005, so 6 years ago). UC had several years where it was on the border of the NCAA, and did at least play in post season play. Certainly not a king, but also not a knave.

Syracuse football in that time struggled to win a single game in a couple seasons, and was just pasted in conference for multiple seasons (like UC's 2006/2007 season).

The kings all have one thing in common: each has won a NC, which, in football, I've - time and time again - considered irrelevant, although there are years where the #1 team is a no-brainer.