(03-04-2011 02:35 AM)RobertN Wrote:  Oddly enough, you just presented the Republican economic plan.

So, what do you propose?
Or have you returned from your hiatus as devoid of ideas as before you left?

Wages are already being slashed when compared to inflation and COLA.
Taxes have been slashed for 10 years now when you factor in all the Sec. 179 expensing increases and other changes in the tax code.
The oversight in Washington has been terrible (See BP, etc.)

Bottom line, I don't think there is a damn thing that can be done. We are experiencing a slight growth right now and definitely not loosing jobs like we were in the later half of Shrub. The Corporations, which run the government in case you haven't noticed, are making their profits still in this slow economy by holding wages and bonuses in check while slashing the workforce through layoffs, overseas labor and efficiency improvements.

Sadly, we just have too many people to employ in this new global marketplace.

(03-04-2011 09:02 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Wages are already being slashed when compared to inflation and COLA.
Taxes have been slashed for 10 years now when you factor in all the Sec. 179 expensing increases and other changes in the tax code.
The oversight in Washington has been terrible (See BP, etc.)
Bottom line, I don't think there is a damn thing that can be done. We are experiencing a slight growth right now and definitely not loosing jobs like we were in the later half of Shrub. The Corporations, which run the government in case you haven't noticed, are making their profits still in this slow economy by holding wages and bonuses in check while slashing the workforce through layoffs, overseas labor and efficiency improvements.
Sadly, we just have too many people to employ in this new global marketplace.

So, what do you do?
Your response seems to suggest giving up. I don't think that will work.

As for the taxes, you've got the wrong comparable. Don't compare them to ten years ago, compare them to the rest of the world. I can't move my business to ten years ago, but I can move it to a low tax jurisdiction somewhere else in the world. And in case you haven't noticed, people are doing that. Our corporate tax rates are now the highest in the developed world. Japan, which was the only place with higher rates until they recently lowered theirs, has experienced zero growth for the last decade or two.

I know our actual effective tax rate isn't highest, but that's a result, not a cause. People stay here as long as they are in the first $100,000 of profit because that is taxed at lower rates, and they continue to stay here as long as they can take advantage of one or more corporate welfare tax breaks. When that runs out, and they are stuck paying 35% (40-45% if you count state taxes), they move profits overseas by transferring operations, and the jobs that go with them. So people don't pay the 35%; they leave instead. But that doesn't mean the 35% doesn't have an impact. It drives decisions, whereas the effective rate reflects the results of those decisions.

What really bothers me is that if you look at the corporate income tax, it is a surprisingly small part of total government revenues. Given that it is such a small part, why structure it to drive buisnesses away?

(03-04-2011 06:50 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-04-2011 02:35 AM)RobertN Wrote:  Oddly enough, you just presented the Republican economic plan.

So, what do you propose?
Or have you returned from your hiatus as devoid of ideas as before you left?

I think that the "job creators" should pay their fair share and cut spending(including military).

Roberta, have you looked at the Obama new purposed budget? Obama is an economic moron, and you libers are on his bandwagon.

(03-04-2011 12:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-04-2011 09:02 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Wages are already being slashed when compared to inflation and COLA.
Taxes have been slashed for 10 years now when you factor in all the Sec. 179 expensing increases and other changes in the tax code.
The oversight in Washington has been terrible (See BP, etc.)
Bottom line, I don't think there is a damn thing that can be done. We are experiencing a slight growth right now and definitely not loosing jobs like we were in the later half of Shrub. The Corporations, which run the government in case you haven't noticed, are making their profits still in this slow economy by holding wages and bonuses in check while slashing the workforce through layoffs, overseas labor and efficiency improvements.
Sadly, we just have too many people to employ in this new global marketplace.

So, what do you do?
Your response seems to suggest giving up. I don't think that will work.

As for the taxes, you've got the wrong comparable. Don't compare them to ten years ago, compare them to the rest of the world. I can't move my business to ten years ago, but I can move it to a low tax jurisdiction somewhere else in the world. And in case you haven't noticed, people are doing that. Our corporate tax rates are now the highest in the developed world. Japan, which was the only place with higher rates until they recently lowered theirs, has experienced zero growth for the last decade or two.

I know our actual effective tax rate isn't highest, but that's a result, not a cause. People stay here as long as they are in the first $100,000 of profit because that is taxed at lower rates, and they continue to stay here as long as they can take advantage of one or more corporate welfare tax breaks. When that runs out, and they are stuck paying 35% (40-45% if you count state taxes), they move profits overseas by transferring operations, and the jobs that go with them. So people don't pay the 35%; they leave instead. But that doesn't mean the 35% doesn't have an impact. It drives decisions, whereas the effective rate reflects the results of those decisions.

What really bothers me is that if you look at the corporate income tax, it is a surprisingly small part of total government revenues. Given that it is such a small part, why structure it to drive buisnesses away?

Ok. Here's the plan. Eliminate corporate taxes. Eliminate environmental laws, child labor and workplace laws. Eliminate the Union. Lower wages to the level of the Chinese. Increase military funding. Privatize the government and of course drill baby drill. All will be good.

(03-04-2011 12:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Our corporate tax rates are now the highest in the developed world. Japan, which was the only place with higher rates until they recently lowered theirs, has experienced zero growth for the last decade or two.

That's been called into question.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international...des/71741/

(03-04-2011 09:02 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Sadly, we just have too many people to employ in this new global marketplace.

On the contrary. Malthus has been disproven repeatedly over the centuries.

There are plenty of jobs to do. Plenty of simple tasks that need done, plenty of new challenges to conquer. (This is Rand's understated brilliance in Atlas Shrugged, IMO)

What we have are too many restrictions on job growth. To many restrictions, regulatory, administrative, and tort*, holding back companies, both large and small, who would grow and provide jobs.

*I don't know the adjectival form for this word, and I'm afraid to ask the legal beagles here, lest they send me an invoice for their time.

(03-04-2011 01:02 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Obama is an economic moron, and you libers are on his bandwagon.

Obviously, you have not been paying much attention and really need to get tuned in.

(03-04-2011 01:53 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(03-04-2011 01:02 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Obama is an economic moron, and you libers are on his bandwagon.

Obviously, you have not been paying much attention and really need to get tuned in.

Let me tune you in. Gas is near 4 bucks a gallon, The Fed is printing money 24/7, the stimulus failed, job losses at an all time high, real unemployment at 17%., companies fleeing the US in drones, ObamaCare is on the ropes, a caliphate is taking hold, Iran is 18months from having a nuclear bomb, the federal gov't is 20% larger today than when GWB left office. Are u paying attention, yet.

(03-03-2011 08:50 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Never have corporations had it so good. Damned Obama!!!

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2011/02/t...ay_23.html

Quote:The U.S. effective corporate tax rate on new investment was 34.6 percent in 2010, which was the highest rate in the OECD and the fifth-highest rate among 83 countries. The average OECD rate was 18.6 percent, and the average rate for 83 countries was 17.7 percent."

(03-04-2011 03:55 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(03-03-2011 08:50 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Never have corporations had it so good. Damned Obama!!!

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2011/02/t...ay_23.html

Quote:The U.S. effective corporate tax rate on new investment was 34.6 percent in 2010, which was the highest rate in the OECD and the fifth-highest rate among 83 countries. The average OECD rate was 18.6 percent, and the average rate for 83 countries was 17.7 percent."

I haven't looked to verify the data... but this is an example of facts getting in the way of policy.

People can look at the top chart and think we need to raise taxes, but look at the bottom and understand why corporations aren't investing in the US.

Really, its the same argument I'm making in the "corp fat cat vs top 2%" situation. They rail against evil corporations, and then feign ignorance when corporations react to their actions.

"They aren't investing in the US because they're greedy"... as opposed to "they aren't investing iun the US because they can get a better return investing elsewhere."

(03-04-2011 02:36 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(03-04-2011 01:53 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(03-04-2011 01:02 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Obama is an economic moron, and you libers are on his bandwagon.

Obviously, you have not been paying much attention and really need to get tuned in.

Let me tune you in. Gas is near 4 bucks a gallon, The Fed is printing money 24/7, the stimulus failed, job losses at an all time high, real unemployment at 17%., companies fleeing the US in drones, ObamaCare is on the ropes, a caliphate is taking hold, Iran is 18months from having a nuclear bomb, the federal gov't is 20% larger today than when GWB left office. Are u paying attention, yet.

You just need a better attitude. Let's take a look:

Quote:Gas is near 4 bucks a gallon

Carbon emissions down. People will walk more and reduce obesity rates.

Quote:The Fed is printing money 24/7

Gov't employees hard at work!

Quote:companies fleeing the US in drones

US made drones!

Quote:ObamaCare is on the ropes

Which is what conservatives want

Quote:caliphate is taking hold

More people turning toward god.

Quote:Iran is 18months from having a nuclear bomb

Nuclear power means cheap energy for the region.

Quote:the federal gov't is 20% larger today than when GWB left office

Obama putting Americans to work!

I forgot, $14 Trillion in debt, $5 Trillion under Obama's 2 year watch, with budget deficits for as far as the eye can see.

(03-04-2011 12:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-04-2011 09:02 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Wages are already being slashed when compared to inflation and COLA.
Taxes have been slashed for 10 years now when you factor in all the Sec. 179 expensing increases and other changes in the tax code.
The oversight in Washington has been terrible (See BP, etc.)
Bottom line, I don't think there is a damn thing that can be done. We are experiencing a slight growth right now and definitely not loosing jobs like we were in the later half of Shrub. The Corporations, which run the government in case you haven't noticed, are making their profits still in this slow economy by holding wages and bonuses in check while slashing the workforce through layoffs, overseas labor and efficiency improvements.
Sadly, we just have too many people to employ in this new global marketplace.

So, what do you do?
Your response seems to suggest giving up. I don't think that will work.

As for the taxes, you've got the wrong comparable. Don't compare them to ten years ago, compare them to the rest of the world. I can't move my business to ten years ago, but I can move it to a low tax jurisdiction somewhere else in the world. And in case you haven't noticed, people are doing that. Our corporate tax rates are now the highest in the developed world. Japan, which was the only place with higher rates until they recently lowered theirs, has experienced zero growth for the last decade or two.

I know our actual effective tax rate isn't highest, but that's a result, not a cause. People stay here as long as they are in the first $100,000 of profit because that is taxed at lower rates, and they continue to stay here as long as they can take advantage of one or more corporate welfare tax breaks. When that runs out, and they are stuck paying 35% (40-45% if you count state taxes), they move profits overseas by transferring operations, and the jobs that go with them. So people don't pay the 35%; they leave instead. But that doesn't mean the 35% doesn't have an impact. It drives decisions, whereas the effective rate reflects the results of those decisions.

What really bothers me is that if you look at the corporate income tax, it is a surprisingly small part of total government revenues. Given that it is such a small part, why structure it to drive buisnesses away?

You'd have to compare rates among countries now, and compare that to the difference in tax rates 10 years ago.

(03-04-2011 02:36 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(03-04-2011 01:53 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(03-04-2011 01:02 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Obama is an economic moron, and you libers are on his bandwagon.

Obviously, you have not been paying much attention and really need to get tuned in.

Let me tune you in. Gas is near 4 bucks a gallon, The Fed is printing money 24/7, the stimulus failed, job losses at an all time high, real unemployment at 17%., companies fleeing the US in drones, ObamaCare is on the ropes, a caliphate is taking hold, Iran is 18months from having a nuclear bomb, the federal gov't is 20% larger today than when GWB left office. Are u paying attention, yet.

I guess Mr. Peanut was wrong. You do have a sense of humor.

(03-05-2011 02:13 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  You'd have to compare rates among countries now, and compare that to the difference in tax rates 10 years ago.

Agree, so let's do that at 10-year intervals, looking at simple unweighted avearges for other developed countries:

1989 (end of Reagan)

US (excluding state/local taxes) 31.6%
OECD average (excluding state/provincial/local taxes) 38.1%
USA (including state/local taxes) 38.7%
OECD (including state provincial/local taxes) 42.7%
USA v OECD (without/with state/local taxes) 6.5% lower/4.0% lower

1999 (end of Clinton)

US (excluding state/local taxes) 32.6%
OECD average (excluding state/provincial/local taxes) 32.1%
USA (including state/local taxes) 39.4%
OECD (including state provincial/local taxes) 34.8%
USA v OECD (without/with state/local taxes) 0.5% higher/4.6% higher

2009 (end of Shrub)

US (excluding state/local taxes) 32.8%
OECD average (excluding state/provincial/local taxes) 24.3%
USA (including state/local taxes) 39.1%
OECD (including state provincial/local taxes) 26.3%
USA v OECD (without/with state/local taxes) 8.5% higher/12.8% higher

See any trends there?

US virtually unchanged from Reagan to Clinton to Shrub. The rest of the world figured out that lower taxes was one way to attract jobs, so their rates plunged. Not saying it's the only way, or that it will work in every case, but it's one way, and it will work in some cases, and it's one that we can do.

And I agree that the average rates paid by corporations are less than 39.1%. But that's because once they hit the point where they are paying the full load, they start moving stuff overseas.

It is important to always understand that ONLY individuals pay taxes. Taxes are simply a part of a companies overhead and are priced into it's goods or services...that..individuals pay.

This is a major reason that a "fairtax" system would reduce the cost of goods and services and would be good for America. Lower overheads would lead to lower prices through competition.

(03-06-2011 04:26 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  It is important to always understand that ONLY individuals pay taxes. Taxes are simply a part of a companies overhead and are priced into it's goods or services...that..individuals pay.

This is a major reason that a "fairtax" system would reduce the cost of goods and services and would be good for America. Lower overheads would lead to lower prices through competition.

Blah, blah, blah. THe same crap over and over. We know they pass the costs on to the consumer but I am only buying a small portion of that tax. If the corporation doesn't pay any, I get stuck paying more than I would because they don't pay a dime. If I don't shop at a company, I don't have to pay for their taxes(assuming they pay some). Which makes me better off because my share is down.

(03-06-2011 05:36 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(03-06-2011 04:26 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  It is important to always understand that ONLY individuals pay taxes. Taxes are simply a part of a companies overhead and are priced into it's goods or services...that..individuals pay.

This is a major reason that a "fairtax" system would reduce the cost of goods and services and would be good for America. Lower overheads would lead to lower prices through competition.

Blah, blah, blah. THe same crap over and over. We know they pass the costs on to the consumer but I am only buying a small portion of that tax. If the corporation doesn't pay any, I get stuck paying more than I would because they don't pay a dime. If I don't shop at a company, I don't have to pay for their taxes(assuming they pay some). Which makes me better off because my share is down.

blah blah blah... same ignorance over and over.

If you don't shop at store a, you shop at store b. If they make $1 off of your transaction and their tax rate is 17%, you paid 17 cents in taxes. If they make $100, you pay $17. If you pay $1 to 100 different stores, you've paid $17 in taxes. If their rate is 19%, you paid $19... if 33%, $33. Their pricing is based on their expectation of the taxes they will incur. If they expect their tax rate to go from 17 to 19, you will find them trying to get you to pay more to cover the $2 in extra taxes to keep their margins the same.

If you want to argue that store a is profitable so you pay the tax, but store B is not so you don't... first, you don't check their tax status before purchasing, do you? and second, in the aggregate, it doesn't matter. Store b certainly WANTS to be profitable, and if they are selling something for $1, then store a can't (in general) sell it for much more than that if they want to continue to be profitable.

You keep hearing the same argument because its still true. You not understanding it doesn't make it wrong. Your "i get stuck paying more of it" is literally the dumbest thing I've ever read. They don't come after you later to pay more for your product.