(01-19-2011 10:32 PM)Vottomatic Wrote:  The Truth is............

......I really don't know what to say about this team.

I guess I'm not a head coach because I'd sit Thomas the rest of the season and take my chances with Justin Jackson and Wilks.
I guess I'm not a head coach because I'd start Kilpatrick because these beginning of the game scoring droughts are killing us against good teams.

It's not that we lose. It's how we lose. That's all I can say about it.

votto, I completely agree with you. I'd sit Thomas alot more if we want to win down the stretch. Thomas adds nothing when we play good big east teams with a good front line. He just doesn't have the skills, which is sad since this is his 5th year of division I ball.

(01-22-2011 06:23 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(01-20-2011 09:57 PM)Bearcat04 Wrote:  

(01-20-2011 08:35 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:   Absolutely hitting the nail on the head here. Wow have the standards of UC basketball fallen among many in this fan base. It was not so long ago we expected our team to excel, to be competing not just to be on the bubble but for high seeds in the NCAA tournament year in and year out. Now we get nothing but excuses.

So making excuses for a loss is something new for the new fan base? Are you kidding me? I don't know how many excuses I've heard over the years for this terrible loss.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2002/03/1...innati-101

I don't think anyone is satisfied being a middle of the pack team, but that is where the program is right now. When did realistic expectations get replaced by blind, rah rah nostalgia?

I've been wanting to respond to this for a few days.

It absolutely blows my mind that you would use this game and people's reaction to it in any comparison to the excuse making we get with every loss these days, but I think the fact that it was an NCAA tournament game with a Bearcat team that had played over its head all year to earn a #1 seed says a lot about the difference in where are program once was and where it is.

I have never been more proud watching any Bearcat team in defeat than I was that day. UC had a better team that year than UCLA, but UCLA was certainly the more talented squad starting multiple NBA players and showing multiple times over the course of the year that when they played to their potential they could beat anyone (they beat 4 or 5 teams over the course of the year seeded 4 or better including multiple #1 seeds). That Bearcat team had 1 consistent scoring threat (Steve Logan) whom the offense worked through all season. Leonard Stokes' scoring was inconsistent but he was the second option. Our inside players were Donald Little and Jamal Davis neither of which were particularly good offensive players and the 3 was Immanual McCleroy a spectacular defender with knack for making big plays but also not a big offensive threat. In fact I'd argue UC's third best offensive player was a 6'8 freshman off the bench named Jason Maxiell who at the time had basically one shot (an 8-12 foot turnaround jumper where he would start with the back to the basket and turn left).

That game against UCLA was one of the best played basketball games I have ever watched (going both ways). Each team made runs...it was back and forth. Leonard Stokes absolutely played the game of his life, just making some incredible baskets for UC. UC had a couple tough breaks (UCLA making the bank three from the corner/A UCLA airball turning into a layup by Kapono when UC had great rebound position if the shot hit rim), but really it was just two teams playing their best basketball going at each other all night. In the end the difference of the game was Logan (who had been superhuman all year) just had an off night shooting the basketball (still had 7 assists though), but really what it came down to was UCLA's best was the slightest of slightest bits better than UC's best on that night (you know in two OT's).

I'll never be critical of that Bearcat team for that loss, because I thought they played a hell of a game against just an immensely talented UCLA team that played a little better. Frankly every time I look back at that team I am baffled as to how they played well enough to earn a 1 seed in the first place. Just an extradorinary year for those guys. Logan was absolutely spectacular every single night. The defensive intensity they brought to the floor and the discipline they showed on the offensive end was special. To be that good with what was not the most talented squad absolutely was special.

There are losses I look back at and the play of the team that night really bugged me. The Iowa State second round loss, Temple second round loss (that UC team just never could handle a good zone defense and that really bugged me), the elite eight loss to Mississippi state, and both losses to Xavier when UC was number 1 really stick out (the UC team that lost at home was very overrated, but X was nothing special either... the UC team that loss at X had no business losing that game, they were the best team in the country and really that was the only time all year when Kmart was healthy that they didn't play like it).

All that said it says a lot that the “excuses” UC fans were making was for a #1 seed losing in the NCAA tournament.

At least I get to submit this after a win today though!!! Big win. Go Cats!

It was a good game (UC/UCLA) for sure but the bottom line is, we were a #1 seed for a reason and UCLA was a #8seed for a reason (I don't care if they had 10 nba first round players)...and I was very angry after that loss especially since it was yet another year we couldn't get out of the damned 2nd round....and as a one seed, (and you can make all the excuses you want) not to get out of the second round is bs and a bad end to your season.

It was another example of a very talented Lavin-coached team that underachieved all season and brought their A game when it most counted.

(01-20-2011 09:57 PM)Bearcat04 Wrote:  I don't think anyone is satisfied being a middle of the pack team, but that is where the program is right now. When did realistic expectations get replaced by blind, rah rah nostalgia?

Exactly. Everyone here wants us to get back to the level that we were at in our best days. But that isn't reality at this point in time.

The reality is our program got bent over and screwed, and we had to start from scratch. The reality is that the talent on this team is middle of the pack in the Big East. The reality is that no matter what our personal "standards" are, aside from going to the games there is nothing we as fans can do to change the success of the team.

The only one that can really change our situation is Mike Thomas, and really there's no guarantees that making a change will improve our team. The reality is our school has an upside down budget and the reality is bringing in a top tier coach is unlikely because this isn't one of the top tier type desirable jobs in the country.

I suppose I can change my personal standards to be more in line with Ty and Mark's. Then I can feel like jumping off a cliff after every single loss to a top 15 team on a road. I can come on this board and let everyone know how angry I am because we should be able to beat top 15 teams like we used to. I can scream it through the whole neighborhood that I think the current state of our program is unacceptable, but all of this won't change a damn thing about what actually happens with this team. To summarize the fans "standards" don't mean jack. Unless someone on this forum is named Mick Cronin or Mike Thomas, we can't change a dang thing. I really think Mick is trying his hardest, and Mike Thomas is the only one that can determine if that is acceptable or not.

(01-20-2011 05:20 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(01-20-2011 05:04 PM)bvillecat Wrote:  Well why the in the world not? There's no reason NOT to expect to beat an average team especially when ALL of your detractors say that you've beaten and played no one. These guys should have a chip on their shoulder and all I still see too many people excusing their mediocre performances.

Wait a second.

Average ND team?

Their quality wins list is long. ND has beaten Wisconsin, Georgia, Gonzaga, Georgetown, UCONN, and St. Johns already. They are ranked in the top 15 and are in the top 10 in RPI for a reason. They flat out don't lose at home.

And they are average? I'd hate to see what qualifies as a good team on their own floor.

The RPI is ridiculously bad this year. WVU is 9th? LOL. Why? Is this year's crop of basketball teams so bad that WVU is 9th? You also have a Tennessee squad that is 24th after losing to Charlotte, CoC, Oakland, and an 11-9 USC squad. WTH? Can we just throw out what the RPI says because it's a fraud. Look at Georgetown. How do they deserve to be 8th while Duke is sitting behind them? I think the RPI is greatly exaggerating the Big East teams.

(01-20-2011 05:04 PM)bvillecat Wrote:  Thanks. I'm always a breath of fresh air in this forum.

Being the best friend of a fan who's a Miami (FL) fan, he introduced me to a new word called 'Cokerized.' It's when you keep lowering your expectations based on mediocre performances and excusing bad behavior (or bad play) from your team because of those expectations.

Look, if this team is as good as they think they are, there's no reason to think they can't be an average ND team on the road. All of this 68 team-field stuff is getting to lot of UC fans. So what if we make that tournament? What evidence do we have, thus far, that Mick has improved? Because we beat an undermanned, and average Xavier team? Because we beat a Dayton club that was playing some of their worst basketball of the season? I don't understand why a lot of UC fans excuse their performances because 'we didn't expect to beat ND on the road.'

Well why the in the world not? There's no reason NOT to expect to beat an average team especially when ALL of your detractors say that you've beaten and played no one. These guys should have a chip on their shoulder and all I still see too many people excusing their mediocre performances.

The 16th rated team is average? What the hell are you talking about? I thought UC played terribly at ND, but this is ridiculous.

Stopped by bearcatnews when this place was down last night and someone named callthewahbulance is stealing your unique method of now knocking the BE. That or it's a nom de plume.

(01-23-2011 10:24 AM)bvillecat Wrote:  The RPI is ridiculously bad this year. WVU is 9th? LOL. Why? Is this year's crop of basketball teams so bad that WVU is 9th? You also have a Tennessee squad that is 24th after losing to Charlotte, CoC, Oakland, and an 11-9 USC squad. WTH? Can we just throw out what the RPI says because it's a fraud. Look at Georgetown. How do they deserve to be 8th while Duke is sitting behind them? I think the RPI is greatly exaggerating the Big East teams.

I agree that the RPI is a joke and this year it really shows (Though it does become a better tool once all the games have been played and I always thought you should ignore that until the end). If you have money, you can go out and schedule the guys that are not boat anchors, which kills your RPI, as UC is finding out.

As far as Duke over Georgetown, I really don't think Duke's resume is all that to really deserve to be #10. We have won as many top 25 RPI games than Duke has (They have played 1, while we have played 4). Duke's SOS is 57, while Georgetown is 4.

(01-20-2011 10:00 PM)subflea Wrote:  

(01-20-2011 08:22 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  .i just didn't think we would look so bad in doing so that's what I'm mad about

Here is a secret you may not be aware of. When a team loses, it rarely looks good doing so. Sure, there is the rare exception, like UConn losing the 6 OT game to Cuse a couple years ago. You know why we looked so bad against Cuse and Nova? It is because they they are really good and made us look really bad. If you thought we were going to lose these games going in, it is because you knew those teams were really good. It shouldn't be a shock to you then that those really good teams mad us look bad.

Exactly - how many times do you watch a loss and think, wow, we really played a crisp, well executed game tonight.

Second - I love the "we expect to win every game" mentality. Its completely out of touch with reality but I like it.

Sure we could think this way in CUSA and be completely rational about it. But we just played a tougher stretch in the last 5 games than we would have played in 2 entire CUSA seasons.

In the last 5 games we played 4 top 50 RPI teams, including 3 top 25 teams. At most we played ONE top 25 team in CUSA. There was exactly one year in our whole CUSA stretch (2003) where there were three ranked CUSA teams (ironically we weren't one of them).

We beat a pretty good St. Johns on the road and we brush it off like it was no big deal. Dial back the clock 10 years ago we used to complain about what a vicious bear trap it was to face So MISS in effing Hattiesburg MS and joyously celebrate coming out with a very ugly, very close win.

Here's a little trick I sometimes use to make myself feel better watching a UC basketball game.

Take the approach that you're a fan of the opposing team. Start paying more attention to them and often you realize they are playing just as crappy as we are.